×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

Explain "you can't pump steam"

Explain "you can't pump steam"

Explain "you can't pump steam"

(OP)
Can someone pls explain why is that steam can't be pumped? I don't see why. I found the so called fourth law of thermodynamics saying so. Thanks.

RE: Explain "you can't pump steam"

Steam is created in a Boiler under pressure. Some of it is at very high pressure.
When steam is released from the Boiler it will travel a very long distance with out any supplemental boost. This is because there is more steam coming along behind the first release.
You need to study the science of Steam before you go on: http://science.howstuffworks.com/steam-technology....
You also need to stop listing to the Beauregard Gustsafisan's of this world (Look is up).

Sometimes its possible to do all the right things and still get bad results

RE: Explain "you can't pump steam"

This is mainly a question of semantics. A pump is used to move liquids not gases. I would say that the statement is poorly worded but not absolutely wrong.

RE: Explain "you can't pump steam"

Steam is a gas.

The most common form of pump, the centrifugal pump, works great with liquids, and not so great with gases. Once primed, they can lift water a few feet. ... unless the water flashes to steam or delivers a big bubble of some other gas, then the pumping stops.

(
Centrifugal compressors are topologically similar to centrifugal pumps, but run at much higher speeds, have smaller clearances and better balance, and do pump gas.
)


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Explain "you can't pump steam"

You don't pump gas, because you compress the gas, then let the gas do the work of moving itself along, as it expands into regions of lower pressure downstream. Liquids are relatively incompressible and won't do much work when decompressing, so you have to move them along by pushing them out ahead of the space you are filling with more liquid.
smile

RE: Explain "you can't pump steam"

The distinction between liquid pumping and gas compression blurs out in dense phase operation - is this what you mean ? This happens somewhere beyond P = 200barg, T= 370degC. Is this a supercritical steam boiler operation ?

RE: Explain "you can't pump steam"

Art History Majors should not be allowed to post on these for a ...

MJCronin
Sr. Process Engineer

RE: Explain "you can't pump steam"

(OP)
Thanks guys for your inputs. Biginch's reply was particularly thought provoking and helpful.

RE: Explain "you can't pump steam"

I would say BigInch's reply was a matter of fact - not thought provoking.

It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. (Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia.)

RE: Explain "you can't pump steam"

Of course it would have helped if the "fourth law" which from my search is not clear what this is had been stated.

I think it is really semantics, "pumps" terminology is used for liquid or liquid like fluids such as dense phase gases, whereas compressors are used for gases.

The energy in steam is different from gases or liquids as the condensation and superheating nature is used.

I'm not sure BI description is correct - pressure is pressure regardless of fluid type and for any fluid to flow there needs to be a pressure difference between the two points caused by elevation or induced pressure. Gas complicates things by expanding as well but both simply move from a high pressure location to a lower pressure location.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Explain "you can't pump steam"

Not sure it's correct??? Squeeze a milk bottle half full of milk and half full of air until the milk rises up to about 75% of the bottle's height. Take the top off and see what comes out.

RE: Explain "you can't pump steam"

That's a vessel and not a pipe and nothing to do with the previous comment. It is though no different to my comment that fluids move from locations with high pressure to ones of lower pressure, in this case inside the milk bottle to outside the milk bottle. The same would apply if the bottle was full and you squeezed the bottle - Liquid would flow out of the bottle because of the pressure being exerted onto the outside of the bottle.

Your comment above about gas compression etc is related more to the energy stored in a pipeline due to pumps or compressors and I agree with that, but don't think it applies in terms of the question asked.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Explain "you can't pump steam"

Pumps don't do useful work on gases. The difference between compression and pumping is the compressor does a useful amount of work on the gas or vapour, that can be stored within the gas or vapour and used for purposes of it's own self-transportation, or other things, later. Try that with a normal, relatively incompressible, liquid and you won't get much more than a mm of movement, if that. If you close the discharge valve, not much liquid makes it even past the discharge check valve. The hi to low pressure difference exists only for a millisecond. Then liquids can't move much based on the amount of work they contain stored within. Compressors do work on the gasous fluid itself. You can't do much work on a liquid; the reason why compressors don't like even the smallest amount of liquid getting into them.

RE: Explain "you can't pump steam"

Semantics clouds the issue here, for sure.

Centrifugal pumps will not "pump" gasses; virtually impossible to add energy to gas using centrifugal pump.

Positive displacement pumps are another story however.

A good real-world example would be multiphase pumps (typically of the twin or 3-screw pump variety). They can pump gasses and liquids simultaneously and in separate slugs. Semantics comes into play here because this "pump" is really acting as a compressor when handling gas slugs, and as a true PD pump with liquids.

Don't see how this is much more than a philisophical argument.

RE: Explain "you can't pump steam"

With two phase, it's just a matter of when more useful work is done on the fluid, or on the system.
Whereas nothing changes as the result of the discussion, it is obviously totally philosophical, to the philosophers, however the physicist might be willing to argue that point too.

RE: Explain "you can't pump steam"

There is very little difference between a blower used for gases or a centrifugal pump used for liquids, theoretical or practical. Compressibility is not a significant factor, and design differences are due to the density difference.

RE: Explain "you can't pump steam"

Ya. Like the dirigible and submarine.

RE: Explain "you can't pump steam"

There are people trying very hard to "pump steam" every day, in a sense - in vapour recompression heat transfer schemes for instance- but the goal isn't really to "pump steam" . It is usually a bad idea to try to substitute thermodynamic work directly for heat, when heat alone will do- it's a poor tradeoff!

Generally, a compressor starting with a vapour saturated in some component, generates a superheated vapour. The mechanical inefficiency of the machine to some degree ensures that. However, that is not to say that trying to compress a condensable vapour which condenses at a temperature much higher than ambient, doesn't have significant issues associated with it- assuming there's an actual reason to try to do it in the first place. Compressors of many designs tend not to like to handle condensate in any quantity, at least not in the long term. The heat transfer that is often required to keep compressors durable in the long term, can tend to generate condensate at least at start-up unless it is managed properly.

RE: Explain "you can't pump steam"

Compressors can be pumps and pumps can be compressors. It all depends on what they feel like being that day.

RE: Explain "you can't pump steam"

An example of how a gas can be boosted up with a pump to a higher pressure is in ammonia based liquid absorption chillers. Water is the solvent to dissolve NH3, and the resulting rich ammonia is then pumped up to a higher pressure. Ingenious way to get a gas to a higher pressure.

Mixed refrigerants in LNG plants do something similar; a heavier solvent dissolves the lighter ends under pressure after compression, and the light ends are later released at lower pressure for chilling at the low temp end of the cooling profile.

So to make something like this happen for steam, you'll need to find a suitable solvent for steam ?

RE: Explain "you can't pump steam"

For interest, take a standard centrifugal pump, disconnected from the pipework and run it - air will be discharged from the discharge flange - admittedly very low pressure - but there is flow taking place.
A Swedish submersible pump company used on their pumps a spring loaded discharge port which would close when pumping and open during times there wasn't any water flow - it opens to allow air to be pumped as an aid to motor cooling - it was reasonably effective and backed up by thermal sensor in the windings.

It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. (Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia.)

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources