EPA & Volkswagen
EPA & Volkswagen
(OP)
EPA, California Notify Volkswagen of Clean Air Act Violations
I can totally understand why OEMs might want to cheat their sporty cars through noise legs, but I fail to see the point of having a "defeat device" to cheat the emissions test. If the emissions devices have an adverse effect on fuel economy, that would also show during the tests. Or maybe the EPA tests don't combine economy and emissions in a single cycle, as we do in EU?
Maybe it's more complex than that. Maybe the (artificially good for other reasons) fuel economy figures that the EPA tests give can only be achieved on the road if the emissions devices are shut off? What other reasons might an owner not want their car to be emissions compliant in daily use? I wonder if they just shut down the SCR so that the urea tank lasts forever?
Doesn't look good though.
(Does California even allow passenger car diesels?)
Steve
I can totally understand why OEMs might want to cheat their sporty cars through noise legs, but I fail to see the point of having a "defeat device" to cheat the emissions test. If the emissions devices have an adverse effect on fuel economy, that would also show during the tests. Or maybe the EPA tests don't combine economy and emissions in a single cycle, as we do in EU?
Maybe it's more complex than that. Maybe the (artificially good for other reasons) fuel economy figures that the EPA tests give can only be achieved on the road if the emissions devices are shut off? What other reasons might an owner not want their car to be emissions compliant in daily use? I wonder if they just shut down the SCR so that the urea tank lasts forever?
Doesn't look good though.
(Does California even allow passenger car diesels?)
Steve





RE: EPA & Volkswagen
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
The EPA emission test and fuel economy test is one and the same.
It's likely an indication that whatever VW has to do to fix this, is likely going to make the cars use more fuel in the real world.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
That's interesting and against the normal trend. But thinking about it a bit more, SCR doesn't really have a negative impact on (diesel) fuel economy. So I'm still confused as to the benefit of not activating the expensive SCR system that's already part of the price of the vehicle.
I guess it might be more of a cheat than I originally assumed though. They could be reducing the engine-out NOx during a test instead of shutting down the SCR unless testing. Or maybe the control strategy required for the SCR makes the vehicle undriveable?
I do hope the technical details emerge, not just the legal ones.
Steve
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Obviously the vehicles passed the EPA tests in some fashion, so the vehicles are capable of passing the test (which means fixing them ought to be a simple re-flash), but for whatever reason, they opted to use less aggressive emission control strategies when it is not going through the test procedure.
If the reason is to reduce DEF usage in SCR-equipped models, that's not the end of the world, only a minor irritant and cost for having to fill it up more frequently. If the reason is to improve fuel consumption, it means they'll lose their reputation for using less fuel than EPA says; an owner irritant/cost factor, still not the end of the world. If the real reason is that they cannot pass the 150,000 mile durability test and that this is the reason VW has been having less DPF troubles than others ... that's bad. Really bad.
There is plenty of suspicion in Europe over diesels emitting more NOx in real world driving than in their test procedures (and it is by quite a large factor) so no doubt the European regulators will be watching this.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
From what I can see VW sold a product that fully complied with the US CAA regulations as written. And if you were to take one of the vehicles in question and put it through the same emissions test, I'm sure it would likely pass. The software algorithm did not "bypass, defeat, or render inoperative" the vehicle's ability to comply with the US CAA emissions test standard requirements. So there is no violation of the law as written.
The only basis the EPA and CARB have for prosecuting VW is their subjective notion that VW has violated the "spirit" of the law. But I don't see the EPA and CARB being successful with that approach.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
vehicles equipped with 2.0 liter engines. These defeat devices bypass, defeat, or render inoperative elements of the vehicles· emission control system that exist to comply with CAA emission standards."
"VW sold a product that fully complied with the US CAA regulations as written. "
No, they did not; the cars can only comply with smog regulations during the smog test. That means it violates the smog regulations during normal driving, and the hardware and software that makes that happen is, by definition, a bypass device.
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
VW simply did a good job of complying with the letter of the law as it was written. If the EPA and CARB see that as a problem, they need to do a better job of writing their regulations in the future. VW has the financial resources to litigate this case, and as far as I can see they have a pretty solid legal position. In federal court any "determination" made by the EPA should have no impact. What will matter is the decision of the judge presiding over the hearing, and if it goes to trial the decision of the jury. Frankly, I can't see the EPA prevailing in this case.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
This is the first time I've heard of the mfg doing it for me.
(no, don't have VW diesel)
Jay Maechtlen
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
This is not the first time a manufacturer has done this. One of the truck engine makers was caught several years ago.
tbuelna. The defeat software is not just "tuning" for best emissions during the operating modes used most frequently during testing - that would be legal. The defeat software "recognises" the drive cycle modes and tunes the engine differently to the default tune for the remainder of the test.
No doubt the economy (and probably the performance) suffer when the engine is operating in the low emissions mode. eg Retarding injection timing is a sure-fire way to reduce NOx but performance and economy both suffer.
je suis charlie
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
If the vehicle had been "tuned" for best emissions during the operating conditions that are encountered in the test procedure, which is something that ALL engine manufacturers do, this shouldn't happen.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CL0HbstWcAAxime.png
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Link
je suis charlie
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
"Even,if you are a minority of one, truth is the truth."
Mahatma Gandhi.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Steve
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Assuming that the EPA is correct regarding the actual facts, it's pretty clear VW violated the law with malice and forethought. They supposed wrote software that specifically detected the EPA test conditions and only turned on the smog controls during those times. Since they passed the testing using the smog controls, turning them off at any other time is clear violation of 7522(a)(3)(B):
"(B) for any person to manufacture or sell, or offer to sell, or install, any part or component intended for use with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine, where a principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this subchapter, and where the person knows or should know that such part or component is being offered for sale or installed for such use or put to such use;"
The test is not the regulation; it's merely the compliance test. If it can be shown by other testing, which is what the EPA did, that it fails to comply with the smog regulations, AND if it can be shown that VW turned off or disabled parts of the smog control system unless it was under one specific test condition, then they more definitely violated the law. Both VW's silence on the subject and the pounding of their stock indicates pretty much near complete agreement from all interested parties that the law was violated. This is, of course, also confirmed by VW's apology, which indicates that they are busy looking for the lowest level scapegoats they can find at this time for falling on their swords.
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
I suspect that the culprit here is that the vast majority of the gas sold in the US today is at least a 10% ethanol blend. At the same time the EPA mileage tests are done using 100% gasoline. That is, NO alcohol, which means that of course the average mileage will be somewhat better since the BTU, or heating value, of alcohol is significantly lower than gasoline, as discussed in the article below:
https://www.cars.com/articles/2013/12/another-reas...
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What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
VW can easily bring these vehicles into compliance given that the vehicles do meet emissions standards when tested, all they have to do is get rid of the code that changes the fueling when it detects it's not under test. This is really quite similar to the EPA - heavy duty truck industry lawsuit a decade or so ago. The heavy duty truck industry simply increased the injection timing when the control unit detected that the truck was under steady state cruising in top gear. Driving the test cycle they were in compliance. The big difference here seems to be VW used the steering input as well as load/gear changes to determine if the vehicle was on rollers to indicate a test cycle. The trucking industry lost the law suit but I don't think they faced these huge fines.
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
I have a funny feeling that the DPF will not pass the durability requirements if they operate in low-emissions mode (due to the engine having to run slightly rich much more frequently to properly regenerate the lean-NOx filter and with a lot more EGR, which would encourage sooty combustion conditions).
If they can not pass the durability requirements, or some semblance of them, they are in a world of hurt. One would hope this would result in a negotiation of a longer and stronger emission control system warranty that covers more than just the "catalytic converter" and gets extended to every piece of the car, no matter how small or how unrelated, that has anything whatsoever to do with emission control. Taking the car in for a new DPF every (say) 50,000 km would be a pain, warranty or otherwise, and when that emissions warranty is up, the car goes to the scrap heap.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Volkswagen CEO Martin Winterkorn Resigns Amid Diesel Scandal
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/volkswagen-ceo...
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Yes, I was hinting that maybe the fuel economy tests could equally have been jimmied. But, it turns out that there's an easier way around that. Apparently, auto makers can do self-tests and report the mileage to the EPA. Hyundai apparently overstated their mileage and eventually got caught. Not a testing error, since EVERY correction resulted in decreased gas mileage, and not minor errors, since at least one car model was overstated by 5 mpg out of 30-something, so nearly 15% error, on a test that's supposed to be accurate to less than 1 mpg, given that Hyundai had to correct a bunch of mileage numbers by 1 or 2 mpg.
As for VW, yes, there may be perfectly sound reasons to turn off the smog control, but in the US, that's just illegal, and other companies with diesel cars either have figured out how to do it without gross degradation of life, or their approach to disabling the smog controls haven't been caught yet.
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Steve
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
If they have to prove a reflash does not cause emissions system degradation then it will be a long time before any of these cars can be brought into compliance. Those tests must take ~3000 hours to run. Even when they have a recall ready to go I'll bet a lot of owners will not get it done. Most of them are not going to want to give up performance and fuel economy just for cleaner exhaust.
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
They certainly do, at least here in California. When our youngest son finished high school (some 19 years ago) we bought him an old VW Karmann Ghia (wish I still had that car) which just slipped under the age for testing. At the time, I think it was anything manufactured before 1974 was basically exempt since cars that old were considered to be 'classics'. However, newer cars have to pass stricter tests than older one, even those not considered classics and thus still required to pass the semi-annual smog-test.
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
The only smog test I had (in IL) was a joke. I think I might have failed had they measured inside my car rather than up its exhaust pipe.
Steve
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
And for the record, the effort seems to be paying off.
When we first moved to SoCal from Michigan back in 1980 the smog here was terrible. There were frequent smog alerts where you were asked to avoid any unnecessary driving, school kids were not allowed outside for recess, outdoor events were cancelled, etc. We haven't had one of those in 15+ years at least. We arrived here in late-August and it wasn't until December, when we started to get some rain, that the air cleared up enough that we even noticed the San Bernardino mountains, just 30 miles or so away.
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http://www.kcet.org/updaily/socal_focus/history/la...
I can recall years back hearing or reading that the native American name for the area (iyáangẚ ) translates as bay of smoke as well, but other Internet sources say the better translation is "poison oak place."
Google translate balks at iyáangẚ.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
It did NOT. The LA Basin has atmospheric inversion. This traps haze. Haze is NOT smog. When industrial pollution entered, then you got smog. If you lived in L.A. in the 1950s and '60s you know what smog is. L.A. is nothing like that today (well just a fraction). Pollution controls work!
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Steve
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
http://www.wsj.com/articles/two-more-volkswagen-ex...
It's interesting that they seem to be starting at the 'top'. I wonder if we'll ever really learn how high-up it was that this decision was made to rig the engine management software?
John R. Baker, P.E.
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
TTFN
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
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Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
It's amazing how fast this spiraled; the EPA letter was dated less than 1 week ago.
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/09/24/german-min...
In the end, this scandal my not be limited to just the private sector.
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
No, but he doesn't have to and shouldn't have to; however, the rapidity of his downfall suggests that someone VERY HIGH up definitely knew something was done to circumvent the EPA test. Winterkorn supposedly has a PhD in metals research and physics from MPI, so he ought not be a slouch.
Consider the difference with GM, where denials for even just a design error occupied years, while this took just 6 days from first mass market news story to resignation. According to this: http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/in_use_compliance_le... VW admitted the fraud on 9/3
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
- Test fleet uses less urea than expected by a substantial margin
- reliability of emissions gear substantially greater than rig tests would predict
- on road vehicle performance better than the models would predict
- on road mpg better than modelled
Or most of the test fleet had the legal version of the software but the production cars had the fix.The latter would require some senior management involvement, getting a tune into a Job 1 car is not something you slap together on a Friday night after a session down the pub. That's how we used to do proto tunes, when it was fun.
Equally given the cars have been in service for 6 years the same trends as in the second para would have been seen by the service people. I can believe that feedback from them to the company would have been limited, but if you are told to stock thousands of dollars worth of urea that never gets used you'd have thought somebody would smell a rat.
The best (amusing+not at least unbelievable) theory I have seen is that they had some new technology that they were expecting to use but could not be deployed in 2009 for whatever reason, so this bodge was used in the interim. Then people moved on, the new tech never appeared, and the bodge got grandfathered in.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Does this mean that its being topped up at service intervals and I don't know about it, or is there some other system at play? I do note that VW appeared to be the only manufacturer that got anywhere near the stated fuel economy figures, its one of the reasons I bought it.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
dgallup is likely correct about how the "fix" came to be. A low level calibration guy was placed under orders that we have to pass the Federal Test Procedure (a relatively short driving sequence with relatively low engine load and operated on a dyno), and we have to pass a 120,000 mile durability test after which it has to pass the Federal Test Procedure again on a dyno. A light went on in the programmers head, the "fix" came to be; dyno tests were done; the prescribed dyno tests and durability test were completed and that was the end of that. The simplest explanation of why the high on-road emissions were never caught is that since there is no prescribed test for them, the testing was never done. The thought that the intent of the EPA standards was to have low emissions during actual real world driving probably never crossed anyone's mind, or if it did, there was no prescribed test for it so it didn't matter.
This was far from the only problem with that engine design that wasn't foreseen and caught during whatever validation testing that VW did. High pressure fuel pumps blow up too frequently, and intercoolers freeze up under certain weather conditions.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
What's really disappointing is that there had to be lots of people in the know, and these people who should have had pride in "German" engineering all failed this real-life ethics test.
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Sorry about the urea I thought I'd checked that they ran it.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
At a push I can imagine that the (no urea) LNT solution was too heavily invested in to back out from. Getting LNT technology to meet the targets has always seemed a bit of a stretch in the published stuff I've seen, even during dyno testing. Too immature in my view. So the management team could have accepted a calculated gamble: Cheat until we can get the LNT tech to perform, and if we can't in a given timescale, bite the bullet and switch that engine over to SCR.
Steve
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Background on the 2.0L diesel engines at the core of the Volkswagen emissions testing debacle
It seems to support the theory that LNT was just too complicated to be long-term viable. I remember sitting though a LNT tech presentation once and thinking: "Really? And all this still working after 100,000 miles and a dozen salty winters?"
Steve
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
It's not often that so many billions ($ & €) suddenly appears on the table. Seems like a shame to waste any of it on retrofitting this fleet for such a relatively small benefit.
There must be other vast NOx sources where the same money could be put to much more effective use. Heavy diesel buses running back and forth all day? Coal fired power stations? Bunker fueled ships?
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
I could buy into the story that it was initially done as a stop-gap measure until more R&D time was spent improving the tech, but just barely. It more likely they were invested in the tech, it wasn't working and they wanted to get the engine to market so they cheated possibly expecting to replace the engine with a new generation of controls in 5 or so years.
I can't buy that upper management didn't know or understand what was done.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
interesting read
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Remember when Intel had to replace Pentium chips? They tried to get out of it.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Yes, and what %age of chips ever got replaced? That is hilarious.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
It seems to me that the most likely strategy that VW used in the non-cert test calibration was simply advancing the injection timing along with perhaps cutting back on the urea dosing rate on the SCR cars, and the rich transitions (additional fuel dosing) on the LNT cars. This will have had the effect of improving the performance and the fuel efficiency, minimizing the CO2 and the Pm, so reducing the fuel (if used) for DPF regenerations, and increasing the NOx. Thus, all those aggrieved holier-than-thou owners who want VW to buy their cars back, or at least get a pay-out from some class action law suit need to recognize that they have already had a payout from VW in lower fuel purchases plus they can feel good that they have been "spewing" [don't you love that word!] less CO2 into the atmosphere than would be the case with the legal calibration, and so doing their bit to mitigate climate change.
Perhaps the fuel companies will sue VW for lost fuel sales? But I don't think so.
Why did VW do this? The engineering oriented "interim bodge" advanced earlier is a remote possibility, but whatever it was, it may have been aided & abetted by the Marketing Department who felt the traditional position of diesel as "fuel economy champion" under threat from the improving SI cars and more particularly the HEV cars. If they didn't have fuel economy to crow about, what could they fall back on? I know - let's put some pressure on our engineers to make sure we keep the crown!
PJGD
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Besides that, power plants have both cap and trade as well as smog control limits that are reasonably stringent, given what they use as fuel.
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Also note that over 20% of the electricity consumed in the state is now coming from renewable sources and by 2020, that number could reach 1/3.
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Despite the moaning, forcing the auto industry to go to EFI has been an excellent move in retrospect, for almost everyone. Mind you I had one of the last carburetted Toyotas, air pump and all, ooh that was a nasty looking (and not in a good way) engine.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
That's because we've outsourced all of that. Given that 20% consumed is from renewable, that leaves 80% as not renewable, of which, 54% involve burning something. Note that 1/4 of the renewable sources also involve burning something. Net is that 60% of the DWP's power comes from burning stuff.
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
There hasn't been a coal-fired power plant in California for quite a long time. But the state now imports power from coal-fired plants in other states, which makes everything OK.
And of course California lost over 2GW of carbon-free generating capacity when SONGS was shut down.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
I'm not aware of any global issues of NOx and CO production. They are very bad locally, for the people that live near the sources (e.g. urban areas and areas with heavy through-traffic). But I'm not convinced that Mother Earth suffers.
Our wonderful media have got themselves confused by using one word "emissions" for all the gases that come from a prime mover. No regard for which gases are responsible for which effects: some local, some global, some transient, some long-lived.
Water is a big emission from every contemporary fuel other than coal. Maybe if water becomes another "emission", we will see low-water fuels making a comeback?
Steve
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
I'm not in the automotive industry so I'm not sure how it normally works, but, based on what you are saying, what surprises me is none of the other auto manufacturers caught on to the issue earlier.
I had always assumed you guys would be purchasing each others products and doing tear downs/performance tests etc. If someone had a car getting inexplicably superior X/Y/Z with lower cost, wouldn't that trigger the competitors to investigate?
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
This didn't take long.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKef1JFpiCA
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
I suspect some of them may have known. In fact, how did the EPA find out? Ratted out?
They would have seen the good test data and also the road performance that didn't fit the EPA test modes and might not have known how it was being done. Finding a software cheat is not necessarily easy. VW could have hidden it very well. It might have taken an insider to expose. That could be the reason the EPA took so long to make the accusations.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
http://www.npr.org/2015/09/24/443053672/how-a-litt...
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
We do, absolutely. But (a) we'd only do the California tests on emissions rolls, so would have agreed with their pass and (probably more important) (b) we'd only look at them seriously if we were thinking of going into the same market - we don't have the time or money to waste investigating blue sky stuff unless it is for a reason. Diesels in California? why bother.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Too bad testing labs don't have the equivalent of the "Don't Snitch" policy.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
SectionIX, why would you not have them share the information? As a consumer, we were sold a car that isn't what we were told. As an engineer, this offends me deeply. There's a code of ethics for a reason.
Please remember: we're not all guys!
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
There's a lot of interest about a 2007 Robert Bosch letter telling (reminding?) them the emissions bypass software was for testing purposes only.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
The Times is unfortunately hidden behind The Dirty Digger's paywall, but one of the auto rags also ran with the story: autocar
Steve
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
I used to have a boss who insisted on excluding our license manager from in-house software builds, since it wasn't needed and was just overhead. Similar basic argument.
Steve
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
That was deep sarcasm; I found it incredulous that the term 'ratted them out' was used to describe the situation. Unbelievable that the situation was reversed to make the Lab look like the bad guys...
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
I'm doubting that the code would simply be re-used without anyone realizing the bypass was in place when they switch technologies with the new engine development. I'd think that would involve a major re-work of the PCM and/or the code to the point that the bypass must have been intentionally written into the code again. But, I suppose there is a small possible they were using portable code segments and the bypass was accidentally copied into the new car.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
VW says they're coming out with a "fix" soon... it will be interesting to see what that is.
Please remember: we're not all guys!
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
SLTA, I think I was first to use "...ratted out...". It may sound derogatory (in fact I thought it would have been a competitor where motives could be questioned), but I think "ratting out" crime and fraud is a duty of the law abiding. So, I'm happy someone finally ratted them out.
I suspect some competitors knew about what VW was doing, but probably didn't know how. The EPA may have known too, but again maybe not the how. It is the how that makes it a crime and not just a technical failure. I think that once the EPA received an official report from a reputable lab they were compelled to investigate further.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Regarding the claim of no coal power plants in California, I have reason to doubt the veracity of that claim given the 2 plants about half an hour drive from where I live out in the desert that I still see coal trains heading toward.
May be an issue of semantics as at least those 2 are 'co-generation' plants.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_statio...
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Is there an emissions test as part of registration renewal, or some sort of periodic inspection? It varies state by state, but in Queensland, Australia, there's no periodic inspections, and in Northern Territory where there is, I don't believe it includes emissions testing either.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Once a robust and durable calibration has been achieved and at a system cost that the vehicle price-point can live with, the emissions map which only covers that portion of the speed/load map the test cycle roams over, is overlaid on the earlier development map and then the outer boundary between the emissions map and the speed/load torque map becomes the off-cycle zone where it is not strictly required to meet emissions - and typically one does not in the interests of conserving urea. This applies to gasoline cars too which often go rich near full load. This off-cycle band is greatly reduced in the US with the EPA '06 cycle, but is still relatively large in Europe. Thus if you are horrified at the thought of "spewing" emissions above and beyond the certified levels, make sure that you never stray into the off-cycle emissions zone.
At this point, the emissions map overlay should be baked into the overall calibration so there is just the one cal, but it rather sounds as if VW did not wipe the underlying performance development map and arranged for it to be switched in again for normal everyday running, but if so then that would be blatant wrongdoing. Nevertheless many in the media are too ready to focus on the "40 X" over the legal limit, but I am confident those are spikes and not steady state values. Also for all we know those values may have been recorded in the off-cycle zone. As I mentioned before, with diesel combustion it is something of a zero sum game since there is a trade off between NOx on one hand and Pm and CO2 on the other. Yes, NOx has gone up some, but fuel consumption and CO2 have come down relative to the legal levels. Ideally we want them all to come down for everyone's benefit.
PJGD
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
je suis charlie
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
The article is a bit misleading. LADWP's coal fired generation is about 42%
https://www.ladwp.com/cs/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FIL...
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Figure 4.31 in the UWV report shows cumulative distribution of NOx emissions for vehicle B (Passat with SCR), split by test route. The 50th percentile emissions for each route varies from about 3 to about 20 times the EPA limit, there's only one test route (out of 5) where the NOx emissions even briefly meets the standard.
As such, yes, the values of 25 and 40 are rare, but virtually all the time the car is running at a substantial multiple of the EPA limits.
In comparison the X5 runs within 3 times of limit all the time, except for one type of test, and for several of the test routes stays well below EPA limit for 75-90% of the time.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
"The Intermountain Power Plant, near Delta, Utah, one of the largest coal-fired power plants in the nation, and the largest single source of electricity for DWP, at the moment. CLUI photo"
Very likely, other California utilities are doing something similar in getting power from plants that would not be necessarily operable in the state.
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
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FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Nothing funny there. He is wisely considering domestic energy policy as part of the much larger economic situation. He wants free market economics to determine the mix of energy sources our nation uses. That would even include advanced diesel auto engines.
BTW, I don't plan on voting for Jeb Bush.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
In particular, read the section on the aftertreatment development and the final summary/wrap-up:
"The traditional strengths of the TDI, such as driving pleasure and economy are very
much to the fore in the cleanest diesel engine in the world.
We are therefore very certain that this new engine design will be a successful chapter
in the history of diesel vehicles in the American market.
With the "Clean Diesel" engine, VOLKSWAGEN has created a new milestone in
diesel technology on the American market".
You can say that again!
PJGD
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Of course, using that to enable emission controls in dyno mode but disable them otherwise, would be a problem.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
The 2008 paper describes a MY2009 2L passenger vehicle diesel engine capable of meeting US EPA Tier 2/Bin 5 emissions which uses an LNT device for treatment of NOx in the exhaust gas. The full emissions control system used on the engine is quite complex. The paper describes just how difficult it is to coordinate operation of all the emissions equipment over all the varying driving conditions required. The paper notes that at least 10 different modes of operation are required just for the emissions equipment (DPF, LNT, etc.). When you include the very high pressure/frequency digital CRI system, what VW achieved with that particular engine was indeed very impressive.
Consider that the EPA tier 2/bin 10 NOx limits for diesel passenger vehicles existing prior to 2008 were ~12X higher than tier 2/bin 5 NOx limits. Also remember that the VW vehicle models in question demonstrated during certification testing that they were capable of meeting emissions requirements. The NOV issued by the EPA claims VW violated US law by importing and selling vehicles that were not covered by a valid COC (Certificate of Conformity). The EPA claims the COCs issued to VW for the vehicle models in question were invalid due to the fact VW did not provide a full disclosure of the information required for the COC. The US DOJ will pursue a case against VW based on importing and selling vehicles without a valid COC, and also for not providing full disclosure in the COC applications.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
So the "10x to 40x NOx" is roughly similar to the previous generation of emission standards.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
However...
Euro 3 (in EU, before 2005) could be achieved without aftertreatment. So I'm assuming that those untreated engines were compromising power, economy, driveability to squeeze through those limits. But once new limits are tight enough to force you to need NOx treatment, you might as well turn the engine back up. I wouldn't be surprised if contemporary VW diesels have higher engine-out NOx than the euro 3 compliant ones.
Steve
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
http://www.wsj.com/articles/vw-emissions-probe-zer...
And how much power the engines loses with the emission controls working
http://www.businessinsider.com/vw-diesel-engines-p...
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The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Also, does merely running in 2wd tell the ECU to flip into emissions mode? How would that work on a 2wd?
I call case very unproven.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
If the video conclusions are to be believed, a reduction in output at low rpm (fuel reduction and/or retard and/or boost reduction?) is sufficient to eliminate a 30x over-emission of NOx.
Can anyone confirm that low-rpm, full-load is the region of greatest concern regarding NOx emissions?
je suis charlie
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
?? VW, and every executive has admitted to VW doing it.
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
I'm hoping that most of the auto rags are conducting some transient testing of pre-fix cars, with good objective measures (e.g. 30-50, 50-70 times in various gears). The first load of pre/post economy comparisons will be as reliable as those you read about from the fuel-line magnet believers.
Steve
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
So as far as I can tell without some software or sensor humbuggery the actual back to back tests that people are interested in are not going to be possible with the current software. It would (I think) be trivial for VW to supply such software, perhaps they do not think it would help to do that (and I probably agree-from this point on their agenda is driven by credibility and survival, not appeasing ex-fanbois on the interwebz).
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
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The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
I wonder if VW did a DFMEA on that... now wouldn't that be incriminating, i.e. on the authors?
Anyway, robustness suggests an OR-ing of all non-real world circumstances.
I.e. IF drive wheels are driving AND
steering input is absent OR
ambient temperature is 25C +/- OR
[various systems are disabled or overridden to enable chassis test] OR
...
"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Detecting a dyno test isn't that hard, particularly if the car is in Drive, at a set RPM, and there's no forward speed. There are a number of sensors on the car that can easily show that.
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Unfortunately they decided against having a cal indicator light, so we can only speculate what they chose to implement. We'll need to wait for a fired engineer to go public. But only a real nerd would want to know the secret of how to make their car drive like a dog.
Steve
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
I don't think anyone is questioning that IRsttuff. What myself (and probably others) are doubting, is that the video test above gives any useful information about the likely performance loss when the cars are run in "low NOx" mode.
je suis charlie
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Steve
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
I would detect when the car is NOT on a dyno before turning the pollution control off.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/volkswagen-diesel-...
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Was there a Euro 5 version introduced in 2012, and a Euro 6 version from 2015 on? Some German language sources are mentioning 2012. Conflicting info.
E.g. "The engine with the type designation 288 was built in 2012 en masse at Volkswagen..." HERE
edit: actually HERE for the quote, or the Google Translated version.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
I would not anticipate a significant negative impact in terms of performance or fuel efficiency for the older LNT engine once upgraded with SCR. To make LNT work, the control system is very complex and typically it compromises the calibration of the engine resulting in drivability and less than ideal fuel consumption. SCR on the other hand can be made to be a stand-alone NOx reduction system that allows the engine calibration to be optimized for performance and SFC but at the expense of high engine-out NOx which the SCR then cleans up once the catalyst gets over ~180°C. This may then result in high urea consumption, say 3% or greater relative to fuel use. Urea is typically cheaper than diesel fuel. There is a balance to be found then between high performance + high EO NOx + high urea consumption + possibly a larger SCR catalyst vs lower performance + lower EO NOx + lower urea consumption + perhaps a lower cost catalyst. What does the customer want and how much will they pay (although in this case, VW will be paying, but can't give less performance than the original car otherwise the class action lawyers will have a feeding frenzy).
PJGD
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
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RE: EPA & Volkswagen
je suis charlie
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
You mean the engineers filed all the data away and the managers didn't.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
“We don’t need yes-men, but managers and engineers who make good arguments in support of their convictions and projects, who think and act like entrepreneurs”
“I am calling for people who are curious, independent, and pioneering. People who follow their instincts and are not merely guided by the possible consequences of impending failure.”
Which sounds like "Don't get caught." to me.
Steve
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
but that would make them unpredictable in the eyes of those above them and cause a possible reduction in near term profit, so they are never going to go far.
The actual problem lies in the current nature of CEO's, this is one part of society where the trickle down effect works really strongly.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
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The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
"some attorneys representing Volkswagen plaintiffs said they were concerned that the fund could undermine litigation already underway"
and:
"I’m suspicious and I’m concerned, but I’m open-minded," said plaintiffs’ lawyer Chris Seeger.
Nice to see the lawyers being cut out.
Steve
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
A US recall and repair is one likely option for the newer vehicles. A US buyback is more likely for the older, high-mileage vehicles that are not worth modifying. Another option would be for VW to buyback all of these US vehicles and auction them off to private parties that will export them for sale in countries where they meet auto NOx emissions requirements.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Not sure how the last one is calculated, but the others are at least tangible, if speculative.
Steve
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Imagine a corporation investing in a fleet of these vehicles, for PR purposes. I guess they would feel entitled to damages, in these circumstances.
"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
----------------------------------------
The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
In the Renault case, apparently some portion of the emission controls was only active if the outside temperature was between 17 C and 35 C. It was always like this, regardless of whether the car was on the dyno or not, which means it wasn't really a "defeat device", but given that the city of Paris is within that ambient temperature range for only a portion of each day for a portion of the year, it kinda renders the real-world operation of the emission controls ineffective.
I suspected from the moment this scandal broke that there was a lot more where this came from, and now the "stealth recalls" are in the works before other manufacturers get officially busted.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
What details am I missing on their system?
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
And, apparently, it has been found that Mercedes shuts down their NOx emission control systems when the ambient temperature is below 10 C. http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmitt/2016/02/...
I cannot think of any reason why the EGR could not be allowed to continue to operate below 10 C.
I also cannot think of any reason why the SCR could not continue to operate below 10 C. AdBlue freezes at something like -13 C and the systems are supposed to be heated to keep them thawed out.
As predicted much earlier ... there's a lot more where this came from.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
While M-B may have pushed the limits of compliance with regulations concerning NOx emissions, Forbes' behavior is just as bad by using the term "cancer-causing NOx" in their article. All autos produce some amount of NOx emissions from their operation. But even "40 times the amount of NOx than in the lab" coming from the M-B diesel engine in question, under certain limited operating conditions, is still extremely low compared to NOx emissions from auto engines just a few years ago.
If the small amount of excess NOx emissions produced by these M-B diesel engines poses such a serious "cancer-causing" threat to the health of the general public, shouldn't we also implement an immediate global moratorium on any activity that generates NOx emissions? Should we shut down power plants that use coal or natural gas to generate two-thirds of US electrical power supply? Should we halt all commercial aircraft flights that burn jet fuel and spew huge amounts of "cancer-causing NOx" into the atmosphere every day? Should we immediately halt all freight trains, buses (including school buses), cargo ships, farm tractors/harvesters, or commercial trucks that use diesel fuel, and emit far more NOx emissions on a specific basis than the M-B diesel engine in question?
Why is NOx from one source so much worse of a hazard than NOx from other sources?
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Steve
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
Daniel Lange (DLange), Felix "tmbinc" Domke: The exhaust emissions scandal („Dieselgate“)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9HJw3AUvGk
(I've not watched the entire video yet. But I wanted to pass it along for those interested.)
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
je suis charlie
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
32C3_-_Dieselgate_FINAL_slides.pdf
The smoking gun is that the actual ECU code reportedly contains the 'distance over time' limits of the test cycle.
One thing I'm confused on is that I thought that the original VW Dieselgate was for cars that didn't have the SCR system with the AdBlue urea injection. The cheat found here relates to a car with the SCR system.
Is this ANOTHER cheat?
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
je suis charlie
RE: EPA & Volkswagen
It is entirely conceivable that the SCR catalyst, even on the newer models with SCR, was designed and sized to be just barely adequate for the light engine loads seen during the official test procedure, and that running the engine at the higher loads often seen in real world driving will not adequately react the NH3 and NOx. If that is the case then cranking up the AdBlue dosing rate is not going to fix them.
But, at least those cars HAVE an AdBlue storage and dosing system. If they have to change the SCR catalyst for a bigger one, so be it.
RE: EPA & Volkswagen