Refueling fires Why?
Refueling fires Why?
(OP)
Has anyone seen the news on refueling fires? Does anyone have any ideas on what solid measures can be taken to mitigate this problem? and Why isn't anyone asking " What's wrong with the gasoline?"
http://www.esdjournal.com/static/refuelfr.htm
http://www.esdjournal.com/static/refuelfr.htm





RE: Refueling fires Why?
RE: Refueling fires Why?
Back to the question;
1) Pumping gas is inherently a dangerous undertaking, like driving, etc, that many people take for granted and become careless/distracted/stupid. No need to be afraid, but they should show some care and respect and ensure the nozzle is grounded to the vehicle, not try to squeeze 12.5 gallons into a 12 gallon tank, ensure the nozzle is off before removing it from the vehicle, etc.
2) The internet/news media, etc. providing complete and exacting stories on every incident, making it appear to be an epidemic, without normalizing it against number of cars on the road today, billions of gallons pumped, etc.
Blacksmith
RE: Refueling fires Why?
(With toungue firmly in cheek)
RE: Refueling fires Why?
RE: Refueling fires Why?
RE: Refueling fires Why?
RE: Refueling fires Why?
1) The low rolling resistance tires increasing static buildup. I remember one OEM low resistance/low carbon tire being recalled due to excessive static buildup.
2) Increasing efforts to reduce air pollution from fuel evaporization may have concentrated vapors and resulted in an increase in vapors during refueling when the tank is unsealed by removng the cap.
3) Reformulated fuel may exhibit lower ignition requirements.
4) I still like carelessness - alot of the articles I've seen involved getting in and out of the car during fueling (door switches and static), talking on cell phones (are the buttons explosion proof?) and other activities. I have seen people in the car or on the pump smoking, but are they going to take responsibility and admit it?
Blacksmith
RE: Refueling fires Why?
RE: Refueling fires Why?
Why so quick to implicate the gasoline?? Like ivymike, I have heard attributions to increased use of silicones in tires making them more insulating, and that seems a plausible factor to me.
Any time low dielectric liquids are pumped through transfer lines they can build up static charge. Folks who handle flammable chemicals in industry are quite familiar with simple "grounding and bonding" procedures that prevent the types of accidents you describe. Such countermeasures could be offered to consumers, although ensuring consumer education and compliance would be a challenge. Some states such as New Jersey outlaw self-serve pumping, and maybe that's not a bad thing.
There are also antistatic additives that can be put in the fuel that may reduce buildup. If the consumer were willing to pay the one- or two- cent premium for it, that could form part of a solution that would certainly please the additive manufacturers.
Ethanol has a much higher dielectric constant than gasoline, so it seems like using it for an oxygenate could also reduce static buildup. But gasahol is a whole other can of worms . . .
RE: Refueling fires Why?
RE: Refueling fires Why?
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: Refueling fires Why?
You are correct that the people in the business are very aware of the problem and take appropriate measures. It is also true that educating the public sufficiently would be a daunting task. Todays society is in far too much of a hurry to properly get the message. Which is exactly my point. Outlawing self service might be an idea but I don't think the motoring public would appreciate the additional cost.
Refueling fires are on the rise and unless you know someone who has ben a victim of this problem where you personally effected by it , well...Further grounding and bonding are not enough in these cases . The fact is they need to lower the RVP of the fall , Winter and Spring fuels. This could significantly reduce the vapor clouds that develop outside the vehicle filler tube during refueling. Vapor recovery is no panacea either. Some companies are removing the auto-locks from the fuel nozzles to keep the person refueling in contact with the refueling process and hopefully they will not re-enter their vehicle until the process is completed, This still is no assurance to prevent the problem. The anti-static additives you mention are interesting can you name one that is approved for use in ground transportation fuel? I only am aware of their use in jet fuel and how well they work is suspect. In the case of alcohol improving fuels conductivity , this is true . However it raises the RVP of the fuel and thus increases the vapor cloud problem. One point further , simply improving the conductivity of the fuel is not the way you deal with static electricity , you have to have some place to conduct to . Todays modern fuel systems are in short supply of areas of conductivity.
Please see
http://www.esdjournal.com/static/refuelfr.htm
Kind Regards Mike
RE: Refueling fires Why?
I expect the real answer would take a very long and detailed study.
Regards
pat
RE: Refueling fires Why?
How about the clowns that tried to syphon gasoline from their car with an electric vacuum cleaner (Lakewood, California c.1983)? Need I expand on the results?
Question Fuelstat---Do the refueling fires seem to be spread equally around the globe or, are they restricted primarily to one or two areas? I saw a clip on the ABC news just the other night about this phenomenon(?) and it was the first I had heard of it.
Rod
RE: Refueling fires Why?
RE: Refueling fires Why?
Regards
pat
RE: Refueling fires Why?
RE: Refueling fires Why?
is to fill a plastic fuel can that has been sliding
around in a bed liner, without removing it from the
truck. Bed liners now come with a warning, but what
about when someone purchases a used truck?
RE: Refueling fires Why?
RE: Refueling fires Why?
New to forums, so bear with.
Do a little research, you'll find every industry that comes in contact with "Gas" is interested in fuel pump fires, and have been for years. Root cause is next to impossible to determine due to variants in the relatively few investigated cases. As well, everyone still has to produce their individual component within the fuel fire equation.
?Fuelstat - proper fuel/air mix ignites @ .2mJ, what else should I know? Do you measure conductivity of fuel?
RE: Refueling fires Why?
Aren't fuel formulations different in Europe and Australia than in the US? So doesn't your claim that they are experiencing similar problems argue against the gasoline formulations being causative?
We have identified static discharges and fuel volatility as possible root causes, yet you seem to advocate addressing only fuel volatility. Doesn't that cut your chances for solving the "epidemic" in half? Do I hear an axe grinding?
I would not defend EPA's fuel policy competence- especially after the MTBE fiasco- but if you are trying to persuade the inherently skeptical folks in this forum there's a problem, then evidence speaks louder than the emotional sensationalism that is the popular medias stock-in-trade.
RE: Refueling fires Why?
With the vapor recovery systems mandated in California it would seem to me that the "vapor cloud around the filler neck" would be non existant or nearly so in most cases. Perhaps that is why I have heard nothing of this "problem" around my neck of the woods. Believe me, the local press would be all over it if it occured around here. So far, nothing.
Rod
RE: Refueling fires Why?
RE: Refueling fires Why?
#1 if it is true that most of the fires happen in fall winter and spring then it does not make sense for increased static being the cause (although it stll could be) the reason is that the lower the humidity the greater the static problem and vice versa, so if static is the variable that is changing then the problem shoud be worst in the summer time.
#2 maybe the vapor recovery systems are part of the problem, instead of the vapor disapating into a large area it is concentrated in the tubes at a presumably more flamable ratio.
all that said I have a great solution, use a static disapative rubber boot for the vapor recovery, and make sure the pump and handle are propperly grounded.
also don't they use differant mixtures in gasoline in the winter than in summer?
RE: Refueling fires Why?
Reading #1 of your post, if we assume static is the problem, shouldn't summer be the safest time of the year?
low humidity = static problem, high humidity = summer?
If the incidents happen more frequently in the drier, colder months of fall-winter-spring, then that's in support of the static theory.
RE: Refueling fires Why?
As I posted earlier, I think a long and detailed study, useing good scientific method, might be required to accurately explain the problem.
I wonder how many injuries per year there are compared to say slipping in the shower or falling down the stairs. Would the resources be better spent somewhere were a much higher injury rate occurs
Regards
pat
RE: Refueling fires Why?
I'm pretty sure this is accurate because I get the snot shocked out of myself, but only between Nov.-Feb.!
RE: Refueling fires Why?
If it doesn't occur at that instant, then there are other factors involved, since the design of the nozzle should(?) include grounding that dissipates any charges prior to fueling?
In California, cold dry weather is the time of highest static build-up, since the absolute humidity is lowest then.
Southern California is further complicated by Santa Ana winds, which are winds that come westward after being dried out over the desert. so we can also get 70+ temperatures and static.
TTFN
TTFN
RE: Refueling fires Why?
Aside this thread and the one 'blurb' on the telly last year, I still have seen nothing in the press or have I talked to anyone who has even heard of the "problem".
My guess is that more people die from asperating food and choking than by fueling fires. Just a guess, mind you.
Rod
RE: Refueling fires Why?
Then again, maybe you're just a better grounded person
TTFN
RE: Refueling fires Why?
Rod
PS---I am on the EAST side of the Santa Ana mountains. Why should MY wind be a Santana wind? Shouldn't it be a Temecula wind, or a Pendleton wind?
RE: Refueling fires Why?
May be Santa Ana doesn't have anything else that's famous...
TTFN
TTFN
RE: Refueling fires Why?
Dallas Raines said they are called that because they come down the Cajon Pass on their way to Santa Ana and who am I to argue with Dallas (He is the ONLY meteorologist on the tube, you know. All other are 'weather people').
Rod
RE: Refueling fires Why?
TTFN
TTFN
RE: Refueling fires Why?
RE: Refueling fires Why?
Now, all we need is someone who has already set himself on fire to be elected to Washington in a position of power and things will be cleared up in no time.
David
RE: Refueling fires Why?
My feeling (in the absence of evidence) is that this is a great deal of fuss being made about a problem that statistically is down there in the weeds.
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: Refueling fires Why?
In essence, if I drive to another state and fill up, I see a bare metal nozzle with the usual handle and valve control. In California, it's the exact same structure, except that there's an open-ended boot around the tip of the nozzle. When you insert the nozzle into the fill tube, you compress the boot against the lip of the fill tube. It's not a complete seal by any stretch of the imagination. Couple that with wear and tear, etc., most of the time, it's got at least 1/8" or more opening somewhere on the circumference of the boot.
I'd have to agree anecdotally with the statistics, since you'd think that would be relatively spectacular news at 11 and I don't remember ever seeing such a story.
TTFN
RE: Refueling fires Why?
I suppose it is obvious to everyone that if you put 10 gallons of fuel into the tank you have to push 10 gallons of vapour out of the tank!
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: Refueling fires Why?
Also they (the AQMD) blame the higher cost of fuel in California on the need for these systems that , according to them, have removed XXXX tons of hydrocarbons from the air we chew---I'm sorry---breath. Actually the air quality is greatly improved from the 60's here in the L.A. basin. To the point that we are no longer #1 on the EPA's hit list.
Rod
RE: Refueling fires Why?
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: Refueling fires Why?
TTFN
RE: Refueling fires Why?
It MIGHT NOT be obvious to everyone, take politicians for example.
Flareman, I expect the main problems, as already aluded to by IRstuff, is the existing infrastructure, existing cars, various regulating bodies, portability of cars, and compatibility of existing and proposed systems over a very long interim period, would make the solution very expensive, especially when it appears that this problem occurs much less often than lightning strike.
Maybee that is one off the causes? (Just kidding).
Regards
pat
RE: Refueling fires Why?
When I was going to school in Pasadena in the 70's, we had trouble seeing the San Gabriel mountains during the summertime. The catch was that Pasadena is essentially in the foothills of the mountains and peaks are less than 10 miles away.
After school, I worked in Huntington Beach in a 4 story building. We left work by an outside stairway. We had a guy from CMU who started work immediately after graduating in June. One day, in October, while leaving work via those outside stairs, he shouts, "are those mountains out there? How come I haven't seen them before this?"
The air here is definitely better than it was 30 years ago. Can't even remember when the last smog alert occurred. Can't remember much else, but that's another story...
TTFN
RE: Refueling fires Why?