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Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

(OP)
Hello,

This is my first post ever, please be kind. I've been fighting a battle with my older colleges about the need to indicate scale on drawings. We design everything in 1:1 in 3D and place everything at a given scale to fit on metric A1 title block. We do not print anything full size, instead we print to 11x17 which is reduced at some odd factor. We also have noted on all our drawings "DO NOT SCALE DRAWING". I've also read several post about the issues of printing at scale accurately.

So I'm trying to make the argument that indication of scale on drawings is irrelevant and not required. I'm not arguing that scale factors be used correctly, just not indicated.

I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this.

Thank you.

Sanfobr

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

I had the same argument recently. We no longer use scale. It does not mean anything to anyone anymore.
Those that were against removing it, I made a drawing to some weird scale (2.43/1) to check it. Nobody noticed.
I proved my point, it's off the drawings now.
The only thing that matters are the dimensions are correct on the drawing and the 3D models are 1/1 (nominal).
Fewer people are using plotters, and printers are never exactly to scale.

Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks '15
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

(OP)
Thank you Chris!

If we were still doing board drawings or plotting I would completely see the need, but that is no longer the case.

Sanfobr

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

As soon as you loosen your requirements, some idiot will manage to make EVERY SINGLE VIEW in different scale, and you will be the first to cry foul.

Other then that it is simply a matter of contractual obligation. Applying scale to your drawings is mentioned in ASME Y14.100

If you don't have to play the game, you also don't have to follow rules.

"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

We put it on the drawing simply for the sake of a quick reference when editing the drawing.

Like the above, no one plots full scale and no one puts a ruler to the page anymore. But, with the scale shown in the title block, when a revision is being made, the draftsman knows what the "default" drawing view scale should be to maintain consistency across all sheets of the drawing.

--Scott
www.wertel.pro

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

The only thing it is useful for is a quick reference from one view to another view of a different scale.

You could call the first view "Scale: Q" and cut a section that is labelled "Section A-A / Scale: 2Q" and it'd be just the same, to me. It shows that the detail is blown up by 2x. The print stating "Scale 1:2 unless otherwise noted", for example, gives you a starting point. The main view is 1:2. If you see "Detail A / Scale 2:1" then you have an immediate sense of size compared to the parent view.

I don't think anyone wants to measure the scale except for very exceptional circumstances. I think that, basically, if you have to ask - scale isn't used except for reference. If you or your shop or fabricator is using scale for anything other than to wrap their head around drawing views quickly, then you'll already know.

_________________________________________
NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

I do not understand why anyone would want to remove scale from a drawing. It fills in our title blocks automatically. What possible benefit is there to not showing it?

----------------------------------------

The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

How much effort does it take to indicate the scale?

How much effort is saved not doing so?

How many errors are avoided by not having scale?

How many errors are caused by not having scale indicated?

I say leave it on and quit being lazy but I may be missing your point.

Having had to deal with drawings with random scaling going on I prefer to keep it clearly stated - even if it gets looked at on the screen or printed off on some reduced size.

Some people do still print 1:1 at times, and I've been forced to put a ruler to incomplete drawings of components I'm interfacing with despite it being bad practice.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

(OP)
CheckerHater,
I guess I'm that idiot then.
On a multi-sheet drawing for example; I may have an iso view with a parts list on sheet 1, orthographic views on sheet 2, plan view only for plant layout on sheet 3, and detail views on sheet 4. According to you they all need to be the same scale? I would argue that the the scales should be the best to show the view. So the iso view on sht 1 and plan view on sht 3 may be the same scale but the orthographic views on sht 2 would be smaller so they fit the sheet. Here's another issue; our title block has a dedicated box to indicate the scale of the drawing. The problem is that that indicated scale only applies to the first view placed on that drawing. On a multi-sheet drawing the title block is the same throughout and therefore the scale will most likely not match the views on subsequent sheets. Indicating scale on individual views could be done as normal but falls under the same issue of printing to reduced size, and "DO NOT SCALE DRAWING".

I love that you immediately jump to quoting some standard that justifies your view instead of thinking outside the box as engineers and designers are encouraged to do. Perhaps the standard should be rewritten.

Question everything!

Swertel,
Simply selecting any view will tell you the scale used for that view. Indication of scale is still irrelevant.

Sanfobr
Solid Edge ST7

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

People with a piece of paper in their hand cannot "select a view"

_________________________________________
NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

(OP)
Dimensions on paper paint a pretty accurate picture. If something's missing then the company, individual should be contacted to verify before assumptions/mistakes are made.

Sanfobr
Solid Edge ST7

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

There's a time & place to be creative - and there's a time and place to do it the same way as everybody else so everyone else can understand what you're doing.

If you spend your time questioning everything you'll get nothing done.

Standards be rewritten - oh to be so young and optimisticwinky smile.

The general sheet scale should normally be 'unless otherwise stated'. It generally is the scale that most views on that sheet are drawn at, exceptions are then directly labeled. We set it separately for first sheet and continuation sheet in the background (i.e. effectively modify the 'drawing template'). If there is more than one continuation sheet though then we have the same situation as you.

Having different views at different scales is entirely correct, so long as it's clear what the scale of each view in relation to others is.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

sanfobr,

A quick glance at the title block tells me the majority of the views' scale. It's much quicker than having to select a view and interrogate it properties, especially when I'm looking at the pdf version of the drawing.

Not to sound judgemental, but it appears that you are depending too much on the CAD tool instead of doing your own thinking. And by judgemental, I mean I'm not referring to "you" in the specific sense because I've never met you and have no idea what it is you're doing or what your background is. But, implied from your responses is one of the downfalls of technology, putting too much dependence on the tool instead of on the engineer (and the engineer's brain). I'll save the rest of my soapbox rant for another time.

One of the biggest debates I have when implementing systems is that too many people want the system to do everything. "AUTOMATE ALL THE THINGS!" I remind them that automation is just a way to make more garbage faster. And, in the end, it doesn't matter how automated the system is because sooner or later a human will be in the loop and the data needs to be human readable. The more human readable, the less likely the chance for human error.

--Scott
www.wertel.pro

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

I fight the battle constantly of new engineers/designers/drafters that do not have the proper training or experience of proper drawing practices.
The scales are usually displayed wrong or a non-standard scale is used.
Displaying the scale in a view does nothing more than telling the reader that the view is a bigger. It is obviously bigger.
Most of us have been trained in drafting and are used to adding scale. But, in those days we were plotting large formats and scaling off of the drawing.
For most companies these days, few people do this anymore. A lot of people that handle drawings do not understand, or care, about anything other than the dimensions.
Leaving the scale off of the drawing is not laziness, it simply removes clutter that most people don't look at anyway.
I did a test early this year and sent out drawings, without any scale indicated, to a few machine shops/vendors.
Not one noticed the scales were removed. Inspection and QA both in-house and out did not notice.
In the past, if an engineer indicated scale, sometimes vendors and inspection would waste time checking it and questioning validity.
As long as the dimensions/tolerances were clear, it's good.
I know it's on the standard(s) to have the scale, but it causes less headaches for us to not show it.

Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks '15
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

ctopher,

I've experienced the same thing. And if your company standards allow you to omit the scale, then I agree with not including it. But, here's an example of when I've found it handy.

1) For our tooling department, we create multi-detail drawings. The tooling assemblies are much larger and have a smaller scale (1:4 to 1:12). The component parts are sometimes very intricate, and require a larger scale (4:1). Without a quick visual indicator as to the relative scale of parts, the brain has to spend extra compute cycles "resizing" the components to make sense of how the components fit into the assembly. Now, I have seen this problem solved by using relative scales; detail views are 2X or 4X for example, instead of a scalable scale (4:1 or 2:1). This relative scale is based on the dominate view, normally the assembly view. The problem with that technique is by the time I get to page 12, I don't want to add an 8X to every view I place because I scaled down the assembly view on sheet 1.

2) During PDR and CDR (preliminary- and critical- design reviews) we have a dozen or so people pouring over the drawings, each looking for their own details based on their specialty. We can't do that electronically with a single projector. Over half the room would be sitting around doing nothing. In this case, having the view scale on each drawing again helps with the human readable aspect of going over each detail because a reviewer will overlay the drawings onto each other to see the interfaces. If the drawing scale isn't listed, we have to perform a quick failure investigation: is the drawing printed to a different scale or is it actually designed wrong?

--Scott
www.wertel.pro

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

swertel,
We have the same process as you.
We recently had a part sent to a well known machine shop here in the US, who then sent it to China to be machined.
The part came to us 1-1/2 times bigger. They read the scale on the drawing!
The company we ordered it from didn't inspect it per the dimensions. This has been a growing problem is that past couple years.
So, in my opinion, these days it does more harm than good to use it.
I spent the past 30+ years doing drawings and making sure the scale is correct, but there comes a time for some things to end.
If more people within the engineering/machining arena are properly trained in proper drafting/drawing skills, there wouldn't be an issue.

We recently had a PDR with Bo*ing, the engineer agreed with me that the scale was not needed. But, per their standard, it had to stay.

Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks '15
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

Seriously, ctopher. Your Chinese supplier read the dimensions, then read the scale on the drawing, and assumed it was a scale factor? That's a new one!

And having the entire quality control breakdown didn't help catch it. One more reason to bring manufacturing closer to the point of use. Cost of quality, eh?

--Scott
www.wertel.pro

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

Re: the Chinese manufacturer: It just goes to show - you can do what you can to make it idiot proof, but they'll still make a bigger idiot.

_________________________________________
NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

Dear sanfobr,

Nobody here was attacking your personal style. Perhaps I should add "on the same drawing sheet" to be more clear

" indicated scale only applies to the first view placed on that drawing"? Try to work on real CAD system. I've tried 7 or 8 - haven't seen stuff you mention

The name of this forum actually starts with "Drafting standards" maybe you picked the wrong one?

Thinking outside of the box earned me two patents. What's your personal score?

Question authority! (Ask me)

smile

"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

Haha!
It's unfortunate. We try to use local mfg and US companies. We don't seem to have control with what they do to get the job done.
The part made to the scale was a new one for us too, but it happened.

Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks '15
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

Sorry Ctopher, I'm always loathed to change things related to drawing standards based on the action of one clearly inept actor.

If I were to set that precedent I'd spend all my time detailing how our company standard vary from accepted industry standards and never get anything done.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

(OP)
All,

This has been educational to say the least. Looks like we have good arguments for and against.

I've been designing and working with engineers for the last 24 years. I'm a product of 2 years high school vocational school drafting instruction and some college. I know the standards and have played by them since day one. I work in a custom design group where every project when completed is a working prototype. Everything is fast paced and fluid. I'm never one to avoid doing the right thing out of being lazy and openly criticize those who do. Although my colleges and I within my group don't see the need for indication of scale I will most likely have to adhere to including it for our product group. We are in the process of combining the title blocks, associated macros, and internal drafting standards (referencing the current ANSI standard). There is definitely a different mindset between the two groups and it tends to get rather heated in conversation. I was hoping for a good mixture of replies so that I could share with the others and possible come to a mutual agreement.

I'd like to thank everyone for there time and comments.

Swertel, we are currently being pushed to "AUTOMATE" everything in the title block along with materials, finishes, mass, required initials, etc...The more automation is that is done the fewer user mistakes can be made is the thought here anyway. Everything we put on the drawing is CAD driven down stream.

Below I have shown the change to our title block adding the scale box back in with the disclaimer of "unless otherwise noted" (thank you JNieman, KENAT).
I fixed the image scale...how ironic! He he...

Sanfobr
Solid Edge ST7

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

KENAT,
I 100% understand. I was trained old school the same as others here. winky smile

Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks '15
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

While my preference would be:

A. never do business with the idiots again

I realize sometimes that's not an option in which case I'd like it to be something like:

B. Vendor has to be requalified & as much as possible work will be elsewhere.

I realize that in practice it's often:

C. Blame the engineer who did the drawing.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

The notation "scale ( Unless otherwise noted.)", was very often used on drawing sheets that had enlarged details on them .
For example, you would get a general scale of 1-100 with a close up detail of a part at 1-10 , or whatever the relevant scale was.
This has been around since before I started drafting ( On paper ) in 1965.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

I should also mention that some cad drafting programs have the ability of letting you change the scale of the part on the sheet as you generate the drawing from the model , so that you do not have a weird scale of 1-37.5. However there are drafters who do not know this exists or don't care.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

sanfobr,

I try very hard to draw everything 1:1, especially fabrication drawings. Most of my assemblies and arrangements are too big for 1:1, even on E size, so I select scales that are on my set of drafting scales.
  1. We have a 36" plotter. I actually can print E sized drawings 1:1.
  2. I hang my assembly and arrangement drawings on my wall, and sometimes, I scale them.
  3. We have at least one vendor who requests full sized prints.
  4. I have a scale reference I can add to my title blocks for when exact scale really matters.
One of our offices which does not have an E sized plotter, has set up A sized and B sized title blocks. If you like drawing large things 1:1 or in the largest size possible, this sucks. Still, they can plot their drawings full size, and scale off them.

Does anyone here model cable harnesses in 3D CAD?

--
JHG

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

Does anyone here model cable harnesses in 3D CAD?

We've done it, but it's unusual to do it fully detailed and is becoming less common. I will model simplified representations of cable & hose routing when I need to/can justify it though.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

KENAT,

I suspect that our production would like us to lay out cable harness pegboards. These would have to be plotted 1:1, although extreme detail would not be necessary.

--
JHG

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

If your drawings will ever be printed on the proper size paper and have any feature measured with a scale then the view scale needs to be indicated.. If not then there is no point in having it.. plain and simple.
If its not used its not lazy to omit it.. Its more efficient as its one less thing that must be verified.

And I model all harnesses in 3D CAD using the cable/harness module of my CAD program (Inventor).
I do not do drawings for them as they are typically fairly simple and our job order routing will let the assemblers know what wire goes where in a connector. But the CAD system has "nailboard" drawing functionality too.. I just don't use it because I don't like the details of how it works.

Anxiously awaiting 3D PMI to become widely accepted and 2D drawings to die just like books have.

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

I agree that stating view scale may seem to be superfluous when full size prints are rarely used, but I think swertel makes an excellent point.

Quote:

Without a quick visual indicator as to the relative scale of parts, the brain has to spend extra compute cycles "resizing" the components to make sense of how the components fit into the assembly.
A drawing should be as simple to correctly interpret as possible, and, even though it may be subtle, knowing the relative scale adds to ease of interpretation.

"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."
-Dalai Lama XIV

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

As long as humans are making parts at machines that don't have computers beside them, or built into them, 3D PMI will not erase the need for 2D drawings. It just means you pass the responsibility of making them on to someone else.

So yea, they will die every bit as much as books will.

Which is to say, no time in the foreseeable future.

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

Exactly.

If your company decided to produce all drawings on B or even A size, what stopping you from creating nice A or B title bock that allows good use of space and provides tiny "scale" field in the corner, especially considering that said field will usually be filled automatically?

"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future

RE: Indication of drawing scale in Solid Edge, SolidWorks, Inventor, etc...

3D PMI won't happen as a general solution anytime soon. To do so requires perfect round-tripping of model data among various CAD tools. There's been interest in that since CAD started, but no working examples in the last 50 years.

It's like asking Ford and Chevy to have interchangeable engines with entirely interchangeable parts. Never going to happen.

I've only looked at solving this problem for 35 years. It's a not unique to CAD; every data manipulation software has the same problem and often for the same reasons.

The only companies where it looks like it works are those where the entire supply chain is captive in some way; injection molded parts, for example, are heavily controlled by the limited number of molds, the initial precision from the mold makers, and any off-drawing discussions about tolerances. Just because it's not on the drawing, if there is one, doesn't mean the same effort isn't required. In addition, for injection molding (for example) there are very few dimensions that are critical to the part fitting, but a hugely complex description required for the decorative portions. I suspect the same is true for many lofted parts such as airframes and car bodies.

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