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Saw something scary on my vacation
7

Saw something scary on my vacation

Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
So, I went on a grand vacation a few weeks ago. Great time, visited my home state and had a blast. However the hotel I stayed at, while a nice enough hotel, definitely had some age to it.

The balconies, shown below, were grossly unstable. They appeared to be lightweight concrete panels with unknown reinforcement that spanned between the two vertical walls. It did not connect to the main structure but didn't seem terrible in itself. However, the two walls and slab were only connected to the structure by a handful of nails. I know this because my balcony had pulled away from the structure about 1 inch and I could see all the fasteners. The lack of lateral bracing was obvious; by gently rocking my weight back and forth I could induce a good 1-2 inch lateral deflection in the balcony (and immediately ceased my structural load testing and declared the balcony verboten!).



Overall, I suspect I could pull the balcony down with my bare hands and highly doubt 40 PSF could ever exist on this without a collapse. I have no idea how these things withstand any sort of snow or wind load and am seriously concerned that these balconies will fail soon with some injuries or loss of life.

So, being a newly licensed engineer; what does one do in this situation? Per the engineering code of ethics "engineers having knowledge of any alleged violation of this Code shall report thereon to appropriate professional bodies and, when relevant, also to public authorities, and cooperate with the proper authorities in furnishing such information or assistance as may be required." Is this the appropriate response? I highly doubt that the hotel will do anything about this but I will obviously send them something at a minimum.

Thoughts?

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

Haven't you answered your own question?

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
Probably, but was wondering if people think going beyond the owner was appropriate or should I send a letter to only them first?

If I do should it be a letter to the state board of engineers or another authority?

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

3
I don't know if I would go so far as to start declaring things to be "Code violations" (paraphrasing), especially as a newly licensed - and NO, that does NOT mean incompetent or inexperienced - engineer. How much drama or trouble are you prepared to invite into your life, and are you prepared to stand up in a court of law and testify as an expert or defend yourself and your credentials if things blow up in your face and some engineer on the other side of things complains about *you* in retaliation?

Not worth it.

I would write a letter of concern to the hotel management and leave it at that. I might send a separate letter to the local Regulatory authority so that a building inspector might be required to go out and have a look and, if necessary, take things from there. In my mind, that even exceeds the due diligence required from you under these particular circumstances.

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

I'm currently going through depositions in string of patent-review proceedings (expert witness) and have become extremely sensitive to word choices. In a deposition last month defending a declaration where I had written one editorial word in a paragraph and spent 20 minutes defending a word choice that I didn't actually need to make.

My point is that you did see enough to concern you. You did not see design drawings, fabrication, and/or installation. For all you know if you reviewed the drawings you might sign off on the design, if you were there during construction you might find that it met the code (it doesn't sound like it, but you don't know). Were I in your position I'd probably write a letter to the hotel (with a copy to corporate if it is a chain) expressing: (1) the room number; (2) the date(s) of your stay; (3) your actual observations (i.e., balcony pulled away from the wall, appears the connection was nailed instead of screwed, deck had considerable lateral movement, etc.) WITHOUT ever using the phrases "substandard construction", "code violation", or "I will report ...". Just the facts ma'am. If they do nothing and someone is injured, your letter will become discoverable and you'll probably get dragged in, but as a witness not as a plaintiff (most likely). As a P.E. you have an obligation to public safety. In a much milder case (i.e., a P.E. noticed that the exit doors in a new pre-school opened inwards rather than outwards as is required by the code for a building of that occupancy) the board in my state said that the P.E. met his obligation by notifying the building owner and not the board. Mileage may vary.

Who knows, I recently went out of my way to report a defect in a room in a chain hotel and they thanked me by giving me enough points on my rewards program for a night in a hotel. Not all good deeds go unpunished.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
Thank you SNORGY and David. Exactly why I asked this question and your answers have given me plenty of good direction.

SNORGY: Yes, I would like to think myself a competent engineer, but as I was only licensed last December I'm fully aware that I have little experience in the professional part of "professional engineer". Definitely glad to have this board as a resource. My precise concern was that I would rock the boat too hard and be forced to either defend my concerns or even be brought into a legal battle. Above all I don't want to open myself up to liability by either action or inaction.

David: Your advice on terms to avoid is highly valued. I'll definitely do that and word my letter such that I show I have a concern solely based on incomplete information and that my only advice is further evaluation to determine the proper response is required.

I believe my course of action will be to send a letter of my concerns to the hotel owner. Unless I get the strong feeling that they are indifferent to my concerns and will take no action, I will not send a letter to the state board.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
Not a bad idea. I'll probably email and then make sure that the response I get at least acknowledges the contents so I have some proof they received and understood it.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

This may be a case where snail mail is the best method of communication.
Send the letter with a return confirmation of its receipt to the hotel manager.
You will have electronic tracking of the delivery as well as a postcard ackmowledging receipt.

"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."

Ben Loosli

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

Sending the letter return-receipt-requested will certainly get their attention, but don't count on ever seeing the little green card again. The last 4 of those I sent did not come back, your tax dollars at work. For that kind of communication I always staple the receipt to my copy before filing. If the green card comes back then I add that to the file, but if it doesn't then I still have a record I tried. You could send it FedEx or UPS and get a more reliable receipt notification, but every business gets dozens of those a day and it might not stand out from the noise. I'd go with the little green card.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
Snail mail it is.

With email you can request a return receipt from the recipients mail program but I don't believe there is any way to force a return receipt.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

e-mail is so easy that it is hard to take seriously, we all get dozens or hundreds of unsolicited e-mails every day and it is really easy to say "it got lost in the storm" even with a read receipt (I get 20 of them a day from vendors that are trying to make sure their purchased lists work). Appearance of an honest effort here is important to keep yourself on the "witness" side of the line between plaintiff and defendant.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
Good advice.

Should I stamp the letter? (not licensed in the state the hotel is at)

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

not much to add to the great advice given. If I was in your shoes, I likely would have verbally told the manage on-site about the problem followed up by something in writing. I don't think a stamp is necessary as long as you identify yourself and make it clear you know what you're talking about.

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
I would but never had the opportunity and was fairly rushed during my vacation. You're probably right, though.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

I wouldn't stamp it. Not sure I'd include the P.E. in my letter. "I am a structural engineer who recently stayed at your facility and I noticed ..." is just as strong as "As a Professional Engineer I noticed ..." without making the existence of your insurance immediately obvious. I'd sign it "John Doe" not "John Doe, P.E.". The P.E. means more to the courts and regulators than to the general public.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
Hmmmm, I think I'm going to include PE and title as a professional engineer as I'm of the opinion I shouldn't ever be afraid of my license. In addition, if they do drag me into a legal battle I want to make sure my professional liability insurance covers it. However, I've noted in multiple places that I am not licensed in their state and not providing engineering design services.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

TehMightyEngineer, While there are topics we disagree on, zdas04 is a pretty smart and experienced guy. From previous posts he's got a better handle on some of the legal implications of PE etc. than many of us.

If he's questioning whether to say PE then I'd think long and hard about if I thought I knew better.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
Noted. As I said it's only my opinion and preference. I'll happily defer to David's wisdom in this matter.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
I guess my question is now, how do I indicate I am not a licensed engineer in the state the hotel was in without also indicating or implying that I am a licensed engineer in my home state?

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

TehMightyEngineer,

Legally, you were a patron or guest in a hotel. Nothing more. You are under no legal obligation to tell anyone you are an engineer. That's nobody's business but yours. Heck, for all anyone knows, you never saw any balconies and nobody on the planet needs to be the wiser. It's not as if you witnessed a murder or an accident or something.

Whatever you do, I'd leave the PE designation out of it. It's irrelevant, and you are under no legal obligation whatsoever to disclose it. Your voice needs not to be perceived to have more clout than that of a housekeeper who might have seen the balcony and wrote the same letter to the hotel owner that you want to write.

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

You could sign:

"Yours truly,
TehMightyEngineer, PE"

That's as innocuous and subtle - and legally sufficient - as anything needs to be. My opinion is that even *that* invites too much trouble into your life that you simply don't need.

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
Good advice, I'll leave out any mention of professional engineer or John Doe, PE except I will mention that I am not a licensed engineer in the state where the hotel is. I'm only doing this so that nobody can claim I'm insinuating that I am licensed in the hotel's state (which is not legal, correct?).

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

By saying "I'm a structural engineer" and never mentioning professional anything, I think you approach maximum import. Adding the P.E. doesn't increase the import much. It also avoids the whole question of where you are licensed.

After spending some time with the New Mexico board in a class a couple of years ago my policy is that if I'm being paid for the work, I stamp it and affix P.E. to my name. If I'm not being paid I do not mention my license. My insurer supports that policy.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
Sounds like a plan.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

It's a simple matter to add the state(s) you are registered in behind the P.E. when you want to show your credentials without violating licensure laws. Pretty common in my experience. Stevenal P.E (OR).


RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
That's what I do whenever I'm emailing, communicating, or passing out business cards to anyone outside my home state.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

I don't think it matters much that you're a PE. Hotel managers may or may not have respect for the profession that frequently tells them to do things in a more expensive way.

Maybe I'm bolder than some, but I wouldn't be afraid to approach the hotel manager in person with my concern, and be willing to speak and discuss it in as much detail as the person is willing to accept. If I was that concerned about the balcony, then I wouldn't have left the hotel without at least notifying the front desk clerk about it. Without being dramatic, I would try to get a person from maintenance to the room to look at it, and be there to explain my concern. What they do after that - not my problem! It sounds like you found the problem minutes after arriving. It would be hard to make a case that you caused the damage within 5 minutes of your arrival. I would have been down there right away and asked for a different room.

STF

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

Quote (SparWeb)

Without being dramatic, I would try to get a person from maintenance to the room to look at it, and be there to explain my concern. What they do after that - not my problem!
I realize we can't all take on the world every day... but I would hope someone washing their hands of the problem doesn't lead to my injury/death as the next occupant. It's easy for me to say I would do more, but I would hate to think I would do less.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

I wouldn't write any letter. It's too muddled of a situation/laws of notification. I would maybe approach management verbally. If you write that letter to the hotel and they do nothing, the balcony falls and kills/injures someone, and the plaintiffs attorney gets that letter, they will go after you.

"So Mr. Engineer, you knew about this problem but didn't report it to the local building department?"

The other approach would be to CALL the local building department and tell them that upon a casual observation something doesn't look right that might warrant an inspection of the balconies. They can then decide at that point if they want to restrict or further investigate.

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
Couldn't the reverse also happen? Someone remembers a verbal conversation and figures out it was me? Heck, someone clever enough could probably trace find this forum if it collapsed and trace it back to me.

I like your idea of contacting the local building department vs. a letter or calling the management. Plus, it will likely have more of an effect than the management, which has already been lax enough to let the balconies get to this condition and may likely do nothing.

In the end I'm more concerned about the balconies hurting someone than protecting myself (but I'd obviously like to do both at the same time).

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

not sure I would go direct to the building department - I don't think there is anything wrong with that, maybe I just have too much faith in people to do the right thing. I would write something along the lines of this...

Dear Hotel,

My name is CANPRO, I recently stayed at the hotel located at <ADDRESS>. I am a Structural Engineer and am familiar with safe building practices. While staying at the previously mentioned hotel, I noticed that the exterior balconies appear to have structural deficiencies (maybe briefly describe my observations) and may be dangerous to the public. Based on my experience, I believe the balconies require immediate attention and should be closed to the public until action is taken to correct the issues. I have an ethical and legal obligation to make you aware of the situation. For my own piece of mind, I would appreciate it if you could confirm that the balconies have been properly evaluated and the necessary action has been taken.

Respectfully,

CANPRO, P.Eng


I would follow up in the next day or two if I hadn't heard back. Once they confirmed they're looking into it, I would let it go. If they don't respond or you don't feel they took the necessary steps I would write a similar letter to the building department. I'm sure there's more than one way to deal with this properly, that's just how I would go about it. Hope this works out well for you, goodluck.

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

Whatever course you choose, you have to see it through now. IF, IF, IF, the balcony goes, word will spread, someone on eng-tips will recognize the picture you posted, someone will make out the phone number on the shuttle van, and so-on. All of this (thread) will be discovered. In the few litigation/forensic projects I've been involved with, the attorneys are relentless and thorough. They may not set their sights entirely on you because you will not be perceived to have the deepest pockets, but the Board might, and your license could be at stake.


IC

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
Lovely username IC, works well for this topic.

I agree completely and I went into this knowing that once I started it was very easy to hit a point of no return. Plus, I am legitimately concerned here, I don't want to see someone get hurt on their vacation and regardless of my ethical obligations I want to make sure that I at least attempt to get this fixed.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

TehMightyEngineer,

What did you finally decide to do? What was the response (if any)?

STF

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
I've written a letter to the hotel but got side tracked with a few other things and haven't actually sent it. Can still revise it if I want to before I send it.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

with all due respect TME, I think you're focusing too much on wording/delivery method when you should be getting the message to the hotel operators ASAP. Its been 2 weeks since you first posted this on E-Tips and you've indicated in the OP that this was a few weeks back...so we're talking 5-6 weeks since you observed the balcony. I think the longer you wait the more you open yourself to liability and if you wait too long they may not take your opinion as seriously. Again, goodluck with this.

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
You are correct sir, I have put this off too long.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

How about just contacting the local code enforcement by phone or email and reporting the concern? This is not a client, so you don't need to worry about causing them heartache with whatever other trouble they may get from code enforcement. Then wash your hands of it.

To take it further, you could attach photos that illustrates your concern (not just the photo you posted here which is a meaningless photo of a building, but also a photo of the connection you described showing the actual hazard).

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

Common ethics would say that everyone has a duty to warn about potential dangers. Usually the law only hold specific individuals responsible, such as property owners, workers, manufactures etc. Or individual who have some control over the situation and have a well rounded knowledge of the situation. Of course someone might with good reason make a good enough legal argument to win a case against anyone where than can prove the individual knew of the danger, and failed to take reasonable precautions to ensure safety of they individuals that they know would be put in danger way.

For example when an individual see an accident they could be held liable to damage if they failed to call for help. Many states have laws saying you are not to leave the scene of an accident until law enforcement arrives. You might not be required to render aid if you don't have the needed skill set. However a EMT or nurse who do not render aid [http://scrubsmag.com/emt-faces-criminal-charges-af...] in some areas could be charged with a crime.

As an engineer you have sworn you would uphold a similar ethics principle as doctors and other professions and if you are an registered engineer the state ask you to be an advocate for public safety. In your case one would determine the seriousness of the matter (immediate failure) verse future failure. Then notify (best via certified mail)[http://www.geoffreyleaver.com/our-news/engineer-du...]. the property owner. In many cases it would be fine to assume that the property owner once notify will take the required action as required by law. Follow up would only be required if you were given a sound reason to believe that the matter was not going be handled {for example your letter was rejected or returned} or you were hired to perform the inspection.

The book "A book entitle "Legal Aspects of Architecture, Engineering and the Construction Process" page 302-304 covers such information. It seems that most professional will normally not be held responsible until they are compensated for their services.

As regards wording a simple letter stating, "The balcony in room xxx is dangerous and should be repaired" is probably all that is required you of your moral/ethical obligation. If you have any questions I think that as Terratek says you can call the local code enforcement and ask for their advice. If you want something more substantial then an consultation with a lawyer would perhaps answer your question "to the fullest extent of the law"!


Other references
[http://www.tuckerellis.com/news_publications/publi...]
[http://www.constructionrisk.com/2011/02/engineer-h...]
[http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=77b7...]
[http://www.cavignac.com/publications/professional-...]

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
Wow, while I've already sent the letter so it's not needed, that's some seriously detailed advice benhadad! Star for you for putting in the effort, those links are great references.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

TME, I was thinking about this the other day...did you ever get a response from the Hotel managers? I would be interested to hear how this followed through.

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
Got the return receipt for the certified mail but haven't heard back from the hotel. I was going to give them another week or two before I sent out another letter politely asking for a reply. If they don't reply back to that then I will probably just walk away.

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

Thinking outside the box;
What is the opinion of those with more experience than myself on the tactic of contacting the AHJ or State Board and asking for guidance.
Dear AH.
"If a competent person sees a construction that is or may be dangerous to the public, how would the AHJ wish that person to proceed?"
Is it safe to ask a question that induce the authorities to take some action.
Then the AHJ would be part of the paper trail also. The AHJ may take over so as to CYA, themselves. ("Cover Your Assets".)

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

I have to take some kids to Disneyland so I prepared the following rough draft in case I find any structural problems there. I would appreciate input to improve this. Especially for the wording.


Correspondence To: Authority having jurisdiction (City of Anaheim Building Department or whoever)

Subj.: Observed Structural Deficiency at (Disneyland or wherever)

Dear AHJ:
My name is Kazhyu Truubul and I am a Structural Engineer licensed in the state of CA, License No. C12345. On (date) I was (at Disneyland or wherever) and I observed the structural deficiency described below. As a licensed Engineer, I am obligated by (California State Business and Professions Code, or whatever) to notify authorities having jurisdiction of items that, based on my engineering qualifications, I believe to present a structural hazard.

The deficiency observed was (Minnie’s Wardrobe fasteners appeared to be connected with frayed threads, or whatever). If the (connecting threads or whatever) fail, it is possible for (Minnie’s wardrobe to drop and cause severe mental injury to children surrounding her, or whatever).

I recommend that further structural investigation of (Minnie’s wardrobe or whatever) be undertaken to assure that structural failure of the (connecting threads or whatever), will not occur.
I would be pleased to further review this with you. Absent any further contact from you, I will consider that this issue has been addressed and my obligations have been met.

Thank you. (And tell Goofy he still owes me a beer.)

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

Quote (BUGGAR)

My name is Kazhyu Truubul

Wait until the reply from Sue U. Back, their lawyer.

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

You can add that you are not of a sound mind because taking a group of kids the Disneyland is proof of that. Have fun and keep the kids out of the water.

Richard A. Cornelius, P.E.
WWW.amlinereast.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

Allgoodnamestaken,

Or Dewey, Cheatem & Howe.

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

2
I took an ethics class from the chief attorney of our state board last week. This situation (slightly different facts, but the same thing) was presented as a case study. The board's conclusion in that case is that notifying the hotel owner in a way that makes it clear you are not just a whining crank is adequate to satisfy your obligations. They want issues like this resolved at the lowest possible level. They would say that notifying the local hotel is adequate, and that the next escalation (that the P.E. is not required to do unless he was getting paid by the local hotel) would be to notify the chain (if it is a chain hotel), then the state engineer, then the board. In the case of a hotel guest noticing an issue with public safety ramifications, my board feels that a P.E. hotel guest has an obligation to notify the actual hotel, and that ends his obligation to the code. The existence of the letter could easily be used in court to change the status of a liability suit from negligent to grossly negligent which has more significant penalties.

Of course they added a bunch of weasel words basically saying that in the next set of similar facts they might reach another conclusion. It is really easy to hate lawyers.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
Star for you David, good to have that bit of information and knowing that they agree with the general consensus here that sending a letter is good practice but it doesn't typically have to escalate beyond that. I've been too busy/lazy to follow up my letter. I think I'll have to give them a quick email/phone call to confirm they received my letter and ask if they have any plans to address it. From what you've wrote it doesn't sound like this is required so I might just walk away.

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

I see that the State Board wants to be the last to know of problems that may be their jurisdiction?

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
Of course they want it addressed at the lowest possible level. It's in their best interest in every possible way that they never hear about it.

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

Yes, they didn't even waffle a bit. Their stated policy is to resolve issues at the lowest possible level. They even said that the old saw that "difficult cases make for bad law" was even more true in this case because the issues can be very technically complex and have many shades of grey. If the board has to publish a decision on a really marginal case then it can lock them into a position that they would prefer not to be in.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

Let's not ignore the cost question. A state board is a relatively small organization, compared to the all of the local jurisdictions within the state. If every action had to go through the state board, the board would need to be immense, take substantially longer to make decisions, hire a boatload of engineers, and quite possibly, increase the annual dues by 10-fold or more.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
Regarding IRstuff's post, the boards should either have the capabilities to do their job (provide enforcement and guidance for the rules and laws governing professional engineering) or don't exist at all. If you need to raise fees to provide the support your licensees and profession needs then so be it, but don't reduce the fee and then not be able to provide the services the fees are supposed to be for.

Not saying that is what they do, whenever I've contacted the state boards I'm licensed under they've been quite responsive and helpful. But I think this is ultimately another topic to discuss some other time. I'd be all for debating it if someone wants to start a new thread.

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

I also didn't get the feeling that the Board (in my state) felt overworked. They often take a while to handle non-emergency stuff, but they can get on an ongoing crises very quickly.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
Yeah, I believe it's as David postulated above regarding avoiding establishing "bad case law". However, I would also put forward that they want to avoid all liability. This, if it is happening, would seem very frustrating to me as the boards should be immune from liability for this very reason; to allow them to weigh in without worrying about getting caught up in the legal kerfuffle.

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

I'm not saying that the boards are overworked; I'm saying that if the boards set a precedent and allowed all local issues to be elevated to the state level, they would then get overwhelmed. The state board should be dealing with state-wide issues. To get down into the weeds requires expertise on every possible jurisdiction's codes and local ordinances, which seems counter productive, given that local jurisdictions already have that responsibility.

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RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
Ah, I see what you're saying IRstuff. I misunderstood your post above.

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

I haven't read all of this, but don't see what the State engineering board would have to do with it. You have notified the building owner or hotel management. If you don't get a satisfactory response, or even if you do, I think the local government should be also advised of the unsafe structure.

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

Contrary to my last post, I think the State Board regulates Engineers, not engineering itself. If you see bad engineering, it's the state board to discipline the engineer but not to pass judgement on the engineering itself. The adequacy of the engineering itself is governed by State mandated Codes. If there is no engineer to "blame", it becomes a civil matter.
Notice that I said, "I think............". There's gotta be laws on this.

I have a similar situation and I just sent out shotgun letters to all who might be involved and walked away.

RE: Saw something scary on my vacation

(OP)
Finally got this resolved enough to satisfy myself.

After a LONG while not hearing back (probably too long) I finally decided to send out another letter informing the hotel owner I had contacted the local building code enforcement department. Thankfully the building department replied much more promptly than the hotel and all was resolved. The building department contacted the hotel owner and was informed by the owner that the balconies were recently repaired. They stated that they were going to confirm this via an on-site inspection. Sounds like this all went as it should and the owner took proactive steps to resolve the situation. Shame they didn't feel the need to reply to my letter otherwise I probably wouldn't have brought the building officals into this, but a quick inspection is a small price to pay.

Now hopefully nobody else comes to that hotel and finds a sign hanging in the lobby stating "no structural engineers allowed". :P

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

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