Saw something scary on my vacation
Saw something scary on my vacation
(OP)
So, I went on a grand vacation a few weeks ago. Great time, visited my home state and had a blast. However the hotel I stayed at, while a nice enough hotel, definitely had some age to it.
The balconies, shown below, were grossly unstable. They appeared to be lightweight concrete panels with unknown reinforcement that spanned between the two vertical walls. It did not connect to the main structure but didn't seem terrible in itself. However, the two walls and slab were only connected to the structure by a handful of nails. I know this because my balcony had pulled away from the structure about 1 inch and I could see all the fasteners. The lack of lateral bracing was obvious; by gently rocking my weight back and forth I could induce a good 1-2 inch lateral deflection in the balcony (and immediately ceased my structural load testing and declared the balcony verboten!).

Overall, I suspect I could pull the balcony down with my bare hands and highly doubt 40 PSF could ever exist on this without a collapse. I have no idea how these things withstand any sort of snow or wind load and am seriously concerned that these balconies will fail soon with some injuries or loss of life.
So, being a newly licensed engineer; what does one do in this situation? Per the engineering code of ethics "engineers having knowledge of any alleged violation of this Code shall report thereon to appropriate professional bodies and, when relevant, also to public authorities, and cooperate with the proper authorities in furnishing such information or assistance as may be required." Is this the appropriate response? I highly doubt that the hotel will do anything about this but I will obviously send them something at a minimum.
Thoughts?
The balconies, shown below, were grossly unstable. They appeared to be lightweight concrete panels with unknown reinforcement that spanned between the two vertical walls. It did not connect to the main structure but didn't seem terrible in itself. However, the two walls and slab were only connected to the structure by a handful of nails. I know this because my balcony had pulled away from the structure about 1 inch and I could see all the fasteners. The lack of lateral bracing was obvious; by gently rocking my weight back and forth I could induce a good 1-2 inch lateral deflection in the balcony (and immediately ceased my structural load testing and declared the balcony verboten!).

Overall, I suspect I could pull the balcony down with my bare hands and highly doubt 40 PSF could ever exist on this without a collapse. I have no idea how these things withstand any sort of snow or wind load and am seriously concerned that these balconies will fail soon with some injuries or loss of life.
So, being a newly licensed engineer; what does one do in this situation? Per the engineering code of ethics "engineers having knowledge of any alleged violation of this Code shall report thereon to appropriate professional bodies and, when relevant, also to public authorities, and cooperate with the proper authorities in furnishing such information or assistance as may be required." Is this the appropriate response? I highly doubt that the hotel will do anything about this but I will obviously send them something at a minimum.
Thoughts?
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com





RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
If I do should it be a letter to the state board of engineers or another authority?
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Not worth it.
I would write a letter of concern to the hotel management and leave it at that. I might send a separate letter to the local Regulatory authority so that a building inspector might be required to go out and have a look and, if necessary, take things from there. In my mind, that even exceeds the due diligence required from you under these particular circumstances.
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
My point is that you did see enough to concern you. You did not see design drawings, fabrication, and/or installation. For all you know if you reviewed the drawings you might sign off on the design, if you were there during construction you might find that it met the code (it doesn't sound like it, but you don't know). Were I in your position I'd probably write a letter to the hotel (with a copy to corporate if it is a chain) expressing: (1) the room number; (2) the date(s) of your stay; (3) your actual observations (i.e., balcony pulled away from the wall, appears the connection was nailed instead of screwed, deck had considerable lateral movement, etc.) WITHOUT ever using the phrases "substandard construction", "code violation", or "I will report ...". Just the facts ma'am. If they do nothing and someone is injured, your letter will become discoverable and you'll probably get dragged in, but as a witness not as a plaintiff (most likely). As a P.E. you have an obligation to public safety. In a much milder case (i.e., a P.E. noticed that the exit doors in a new pre-school opened inwards rather than outwards as is required by the code for a building of that occupancy) the board in my state said that the P.E. met his obligation by notifying the building owner and not the board. Mileage may vary.
Who knows, I recently went out of my way to report a defect in a room in a chain hotel and they thanked me by giving me enough points on my rewards program for a night in a hotel. Not all good deeds go unpunished.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
SNORGY: Yes, I would like to think myself a competent engineer, but as I was only licensed last December I'm fully aware that I have little experience in the professional part of "professional engineer". Definitely glad to have this board as a resource. My precise concern was that I would rock the boat too hard and be forced to either defend my concerns or even be brought into a legal battle. Above all I don't want to open myself up to liability by either action or inaction.
David: Your advice on terms to avoid is highly valued. I'll definitely do that and word my letter such that I show I have a concern solely based on incomplete information and that my only advice is further evaluation to determine the proper response is required.
I believe my course of action will be to send a letter of my concerns to the hotel owner. Unless I get the strong feeling that they are indifferent to my concerns and will take no action, I will not send a letter to the state board.
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Send the letter with a return confirmation of its receipt to the hotel manager.
You will have electronic tracking of the delivery as well as a postcard ackmowledging receipt.
"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."
Ben Loosli
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
With email you can request a return receipt from the recipients mail program but I don't believe there is any way to force a return receipt.
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Should I stamp the letter? (not licensed in the state the hotel is at)
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
If he's questioning whether to say PE then I'd think long and hard about if I thought I knew better.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Legally, you were a patron or guest in a hotel. Nothing more. You are under no legal obligation to tell anyone you are an engineer. That's nobody's business but yours. Heck, for all anyone knows, you never saw any balconies and nobody on the planet needs to be the wiser. It's not as if you witnessed a murder or an accident or something.
Whatever you do, I'd leave the PE designation out of it. It's irrelevant, and you are under no legal obligation whatsoever to disclose it. Your voice needs not to be perceived to have more clout than that of a housekeeper who might have seen the balcony and wrote the same letter to the hotel owner that you want to write.
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
"Yours truly,
TehMightyEngineer, PE"
That's as innocuous and subtle - and legally sufficient - as anything needs to be. My opinion is that even *that* invites too much trouble into your life that you simply don't need.
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
After spending some time with the New Mexico board in a class a couple of years ago my policy is that if I'm being paid for the work, I stamp it and affix P.E. to my name. If I'm not being paid I do not mention my license. My insurer supports that policy.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Maybe I'm bolder than some, but I wouldn't be afraid to approach the hotel manager in person with my concern, and be willing to speak and discuss it in as much detail as the person is willing to accept. If I was that concerned about the balcony, then I wouldn't have left the hotel without at least notifying the front desk clerk about it. Without being dramatic, I would try to get a person from maintenance to the room to look at it, and be there to explain my concern. What they do after that - not my problem! It sounds like you found the problem minutes after arriving. It would be hard to make a case that you caused the damage within 5 minutes of your arrival. I would have been down there right away and asked for a different room.
STF
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
"So Mr. Engineer, you knew about this problem but didn't report it to the local building department?"
The other approach would be to CALL the local building department and tell them that upon a casual observation something doesn't look right that might warrant an inspection of the balconies. They can then decide at that point if they want to restrict or further investigate.
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
I like your idea of contacting the local building department vs. a letter or calling the management. Plus, it will likely have more of an effect than the management, which has already been lax enough to let the balconies get to this condition and may likely do nothing.
In the end I'm more concerned about the balconies hurting someone than protecting myself (but I'd obviously like to do both at the same time).
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Dear Hotel,
My name is CANPRO, I recently stayed at the hotel located at <ADDRESS>. I am a Structural Engineer and am familiar with safe building practices. While staying at the previously mentioned hotel, I noticed that the exterior balconies appear to have structural deficiencies (maybe briefly describe my observations) and may be dangerous to the public. Based on my experience, I believe the balconies require immediate attention and should be closed to the public until action is taken to correct the issues. I have an ethical and legal obligation to make you aware of the situation. For my own piece of mind, I would appreciate it if you could confirm that the balconies have been properly evaluated and the necessary action has been taken.
Respectfully,
CANPRO, P.Eng
I would follow up in the next day or two if I hadn't heard back. Once they confirmed they're looking into it, I would let it go. If they don't respond or you don't feel they took the necessary steps I would write a similar letter to the building department. I'm sure there's more than one way to deal with this properly, that's just how I would go about it. Hope this works out well for you, goodluck.
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
IC
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
I agree completely and I went into this knowing that once I started it was very easy to hit a point of no return. Plus, I am legitimately concerned here, I don't want to see someone get hurt on their vacation and regardless of my ethical obligations I want to make sure that I at least attempt to get this fixed.
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
What did you finally decide to do? What was the response (if any)?
STF
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
To take it further, you could attach photos that illustrates your concern (not just the photo you posted here which is a meaningless photo of a building, but also a photo of the connection you described showing the actual hazard).
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
For example when an individual see an accident they could be held liable to damage if they failed to call for help. Many states have laws saying you are not to leave the scene of an accident until law enforcement arrives. You might not be required to render aid if you don't have the needed skill set. However a EMT or nurse who do not render aid [http://scrubsmag.com/emt-faces-criminal-charges-af...] in some areas could be charged with a crime.
As an engineer you have sworn you would uphold a similar ethics principle as doctors and other professions and if you are an registered engineer the state ask you to be an advocate for public safety. In your case one would determine the seriousness of the matter (immediate failure) verse future failure. Then notify (best via certified mail)[http://www.geoffreyleaver.com/our-news/engineer-du...]. the property owner. In many cases it would be fine to assume that the property owner once notify will take the required action as required by law. Follow up would only be required if you were given a sound reason to believe that the matter was not going be handled {for example your letter was rejected or returned} or you were hired to perform the inspection.
The book "A book entitle "Legal Aspects of Architecture, Engineering and the Construction Process" page 302-304 covers such information. It seems that most professional will normally not be held responsible until they are compensated for their services.
As regards wording a simple letter stating, "The balcony in room xxx is dangerous and should be repaired" is probably all that is required you of your moral/ethical obligation. If you have any questions I think that as Terratek says you can call the local code enforcement and ask for their advice. If you want something more substantial then an consultation with a lawyer would perhaps answer your question "to the fullest extent of the law"!
Other references
[http://www.tuckerellis.com/news_publications/publi...]
[http://www.constructionrisk.com/2011/02/engineer-h...]
[http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=77b7...]
[http://www.cavignac.com/publications/professional-...]
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
What is the opinion of those with more experience than myself on the tactic of contacting the AHJ or State Board and asking for guidance.
Dear AH.
"If a competent person sees a construction that is or may be dangerous to the public, how would the AHJ wish that person to proceed?"
Is it safe to ask a question that induce the authorities to take some action.
Then the AHJ would be part of the paper trail also. The AHJ may take over so as to CYA, themselves. ("Cover Your Assets".)
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Correspondence To: Authority having jurisdiction (City of Anaheim Building Department or whoever)
Subj.: Observed Structural Deficiency at (Disneyland or wherever)
Dear AHJ:
My name is Kazhyu Truubul and I am a Structural Engineer licensed in the state of CA, License No. C12345. On (date) I was (at Disneyland or wherever) and I observed the structural deficiency described below. As a licensed Engineer, I am obligated by (California State Business and Professions Code, or whatever) to notify authorities having jurisdiction of items that, based on my engineering qualifications, I believe to present a structural hazard.
The deficiency observed was (Minnie’s Wardrobe fasteners appeared to be connected with frayed threads, or whatever). If the (connecting threads or whatever) fail, it is possible for (Minnie’s wardrobe to drop and cause severe mental injury to children surrounding her, or whatever).
I recommend that further structural investigation of (Minnie’s wardrobe or whatever) be undertaken to assure that structural failure of the (connecting threads or whatever), will not occur.
I would be pleased to further review this with you. Absent any further contact from you, I will consider that this issue has been addressed and my obligations have been met.
Thank you. (And tell Goofy he still owes me a beer.)
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Wait until the reply from Sue U. Back, their lawyer.
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Richard A. Cornelius, P.E.
WWW.amlinereast.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Or Dewey, Cheatem & Howe.
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Of course they added a bunch of weasel words basically saying that in the next set of similar facts they might reach another conclusion. It is really easy to hate lawyers.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Not saying that is what they do, whenever I've contacted the state boards I'm licensed under they've been quite responsive and helpful. But I think this is ultimately another topic to discuss some other time. I'd be all for debating it if someone wants to start a new thread.
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
Notice that I said, "I think............". There's gotta be laws on this.
I have a similar situation and I just sent out shotgun letters to all who might be involved and walked away.
RE: Saw something scary on my vacation
After a LONG while not hearing back (probably too long) I finally decided to send out another letter informing the hotel owner I had contacted the local building code enforcement department. Thankfully the building department replied much more promptly than the hotel and all was resolved. The building department contacted the hotel owner and was informed by the owner that the balconies were recently repaired. They stated that they were going to confirm this via an on-site inspection. Sounds like this all went as it should and the owner took proactive steps to resolve the situation. Shame they didn't feel the need to reply to my letter otherwise I probably wouldn't have brought the building officals into this, but a quick inspection is a small price to pay.
Now hopefully nobody else comes to that hotel and finds a sign hanging in the lobby stating "no structural engineers allowed". :P
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com