how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
(OP)
I am reverse engineering a hydraulic cylinder, I believe there is more to just slapping on a number for a surface finish, does anyone have any experience in this area? I believe there must be a standard out there that covers this.





RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
Anyways, if it's a general design drawing, some machine building companies will still put processes on there, such as hone, but if you want to abstain from this, I believe the surface /roughness/ callout and a cylindricity tolerance applied to a tight-tolerance diameter would be your ASME 'legal' method.
The machinist/fabricator/manufacturer will decide the method. They may get a cylinder hone or maybe their wire EDM guy is bored and wants a challenge or something. Or maybe your actual requirement means they can get away with a boring bar on a bar mill / horizontal mill and a little polishing after the fact. That's the theory behind establishing geometry rather than processes.
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NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
Y14.5-2009 states in fundamental rule (e) that "The drawing should define a part without specifying manufacturing methods... However, in those instances where manufacturing, processing, quality assurance, or environmental information is essential to the definition of engineering requirements, it shall be specified on the drawing or in a document referenced on the drawing." (emphasis mine)
"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."
-Dalai Lama XIV
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
What I am wondering is there a surface finish symbol that will tell someone "hone this"
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
As others wrote, leave processes off drawings. It will save you time and $$.
Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks '15
SolidWorks Legion
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
John Acosta, GDTP Senior Level
Manufacturing Engineering Tech
SSG, U.S. Army
Taji, Iraq OIF II
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
By specifying hone, you also cut out processes other than hone which would create a fine surface for your part.
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NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
If there is, it's not to print.
Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks '15
SolidWorks Legion
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
Of course you also have to "know your audience" - how many would see the rarely-seen symbols, decide to no-quote it (who may have otherwise given you a good part for a good price) and how many would quote it, not know what the symbols mean, and give you an unsuitable part?
I think it was covered; what's "legal" and what's not - compliance is your own decision. Personally, we work with a few machine builders to make parts for them and their prints often have processes called out. They claim the prints are ASME Y14.5-2009 yadda yadda... but we still deliver good parts and get paid. I also wonder if the prints aren't meant for their own shop, and this was "unplanned outsourcing".
Then there are people who will call out pilot drill size, jig drill size, reamer size, and then a required 'fit' tolerance... which, if a shop chooses to ignore, use a vertical mill to helically interpolate the hole from nothing, and then ream it (or not, depending on tolerance) and meet the appropriate fit desired in the end. You can't very well prove or verify that the part wasn't pilot drilled, jig drilled, and/or reamed, before the bushings were pressed in with .0000-.000x interference... so it can be a requirement with no 'teeth' as it were. But I'm rambling so...
_________________________________________
NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."
-Dalai Lama XIV
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
I have an old print of a similar part from the 1950's that has some rather interesting notation on honing and was really wondering if it was derived from some standard.
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
John Acosta, GDTP Senior Level
Manufacturing Engineering Tech
SSG, U.S. Army
Taji, Iraq OIF II
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
We have parts that get held down by vacuum, no option for O-rings or similar so basically both mating parts need to be flat and have good surface finish. Additionally the parts sometimes slide (rotate) over each over.
We had problems where although parts met the roughness average value, small peaks in the electroless nickel plating would cause scratches/wear when the parts occasionally slid over each other and/or cause vacuum leaks.
So, we ended up adding a specific lapping spec specifying a simple process on the faces of interest.
In this case, I justify it by saying the process materially impacts performance.
It might be that if we really refined our roughness call out and plating and heat treatment and.... we could get away without the lap step but doesn't seem worth the effort to find out.
It's not clear in your case if the honing is actually required or if combination of roughness & lay symbols will do the trick.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
It will specify required geometry of the surface without specifying the process.
Also it was never forbidden to specify process in the first place.
Specifying angle will be overkill, because honing is random process, which is exactly why it is used to "minimize the formation of sharp peaks"
"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
However, I now have a cylinder made from a custom aluminum extrusion,with a custom size ID, this is what caused me to question what to place for honing callout. In the past it was easy, just by off the shelf tubing, now I need to source an extrusion, and someone to hone this extrusion.
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
Per Merriam-Webster, the first definition of method is "a procedure or process for attaining an object".
That said, if you are not tied to strictly following ASME standards, there should be no problem including "hone" on the drawing.
"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."
-Dalai Lama XIV
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
The ASME standards are for typical uses; finishing of hydraulic cylinder bores is not typical. For example, ASME tried to take over optical surface requirements (covers details as 'scratch' and 'dig') but I think were unsuccessful and leave terminology and special concepts to specs from the optical industry.
As an example of what honing is capable of, Sunnen provided an engineer with a desk toy - a pin and a cylinder that had been finished to have a millionth of an inch of clearance and were very round. The parts slipped together easily, but put a rubber plug in one end of the cylinder and the seal with the pin was rather air-tight. Even compressed, it wasn't apparent any air leaked out. Most impressive was to set the plugged stack on the rod end and give the cylinder a spin - it had less friction than any roller bearing of any size. Cox industries must have used a similar technique in making their TD .010 cu.in model airplane engines.
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
There is far more to surface texture than specifying an average roughness value and direction of lay. Modern plateau honing techniques can achieve the "no peaks" while still having the micro scratches for oil retention. You probably need to use one of the hybrid surface roughness parameters like Rpq. See page 16 of the attachment.
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The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
For roughness value refer ASME B46.1-2002 Page no 68 Fig B1
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
Link
Link
Link
Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks '15
SolidWorks Legion
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
ewh, why wouldn't you provide larger, extensive quote from Y14.5?
"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
Why can you not just call out the surface finish you want the component to have and let the manufacturing engineer decide how its produced.
“Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater.” Albert Einstein
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
_________________________________________
NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
Because (as included in your post) I had quoted more of it earlier, and in the second post I was attempting to include only the part that was relevant to my response regarding method vs process.
For those curious as to the entire fundamental rule (e), it reads "The drawing should define a part without specifying manufacturing methods. Thus, only the diameter of a hole is given without indicating whether it is to be drilled, reamed, punched, or made by any other operation. However, in those instances where manufacturing, processing, quality assurance, or environmental information is essential to the definition of engineering requirements, it shall be specified on the drawing or in a document referenced on the drawing."
"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."
-Dalai Lama XIV
RE: how to specify honing (on a print) for a hydraulic cylinder??
If I came across a manufacturer as bad as you describe and who could not understand surface textures on a drawing,then we would only do business once if at all.
“Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater.” Albert Einstein