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Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more
6

Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

(OP)
Where to begin?

I'm a production-level engineer who has been with a mid-size MEP consulting engineering firm based in United States for a little over two years. My office is one of about a dozen total. The first year, without exaggeration, was just about perfect. In addition to the great compensation package, coworkers, and atmosphere, everyone had just enough work to stay busy and yet only demand a 40-45 hour workweek. I mention the latter because it was a significant departure from my previous employer, which could only be best described as a sweatshop.

Without going into the backstory, here's my situation now:
1. Our present backlog, depending on who you ask, ranges anywhere from three to five years. There is absolutely no shortage of work for us in the foreseeable future.
2. The mechanical and electrical engineering departments are stretched ridiculously thin. Some project managers are projecting that, even if production staff were to work 80 hours a week, we would be unable to keep up with demand. Late nights and weekends are becoming common and morale is low.
3. Every week consists of a different set of fires to put out. We're operating in perpetual crisis mode. The focus is on getting drawings out the door by some deadline at all costs. Since we're all so busy, quality control has basically gone out the window. Nearly every project suffers from RFIs and changeorders to the point where it's becoming embarrassing.
4. The person managing our branch office appears to be solely focused on winning projects, revenue generation, and territorial expansion with little regard as to how the work will actually get completed. On more than one occasion and despite being understaffed, he has allowed project managers from other offices to transfer to our office for the sole purpose of bringing in more projects.
5. The person managing my department, while an experienced engineer, is incapable effectively managing our department and addressing the staffing situation. We hold weekly meetings to discuss our workloads - which are obviously a problem - and the only advice he can offer is to "get through it."
6. Our long-time, existing clients (Mostly architects) are beginning to turn away work from owners. Meanwhile, our branch office manager has made it clear that we are to never turn down a project from a client. Every RFP is to be responded to.

Then there's me. I have several projects assigned to me. Each one needs full-time, 40 hour-a-week attention, and each one has a deadline that coincides with one of the other project's deadlines. I have no idea how I'm going to meet any of them. I've been working 60+ hours a week for several months. Work and the stress that accompanies it have essentially become my life and it's pretty much all I think about. Every morning, I arrive to work upset and every evening, I leave feeling the exact same way. I feel as though my job is starting to take a serious toll on my health.

Is this a hopeless situation that's unique to my employer and would warrant me to leave? Is this just the way the MEP consulting engineering industry is nowadays? Is the problem with me or my employer? All of the above? If anyone can offer me any advice, I'd really appreciate it.

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

As long as the work gets done and there's no claims or litigation, it's hard for the bosses to see a need. But with the first big fubar, there'll be evaluation aplenty.
First point: If your company is based on a time and material based billing system, your management is throwing away money. While I assume that those 80 hours a week are being billed, that's a short term solution. People get sick, make mistakes, quit, etc. It's better to have two people bill those hours. One issue that might keep them from hiring people is the time and trouble of hiring, training and integrating people into the organization.
Second point: If your work is contracted lump-sum, the harder they beat you and guilt you, the more money they make. That's tough. Once again, over the long run, it's self correcting. People get inefficient, make mistakes or just stop working extra hours.
This is not the way business has to be run. Smart employers get in front of these issues. Maybe you're too junior for them to tell you their plans. Or maybe they're clueless.

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

Definitely not unique to your field, that's for sure...

Over the years I see/hear/EXPERIENCE stories like this many times over. The conclusion I've come to is, no matter what advice is offered, the only real "solution" is to get out while you can and find greener pastures. The problem will NEVER truly resolve itself, even if those managers get the boot, because it has now become an ingrained company culture. Once that happens, the only was to dispel it is to fire EVERYONE and start fresh... but then the company no longer exists.

I wish I could offer rosier or more cheery advice, but this is the engineering world we live in these days. Good managers exist, but once the bean counters get a hold of them, it's all down hill.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

"Good managers exist, but once the bean counters get a hold of them, it's all down hill."

There are tons of bad managers hiding in the woodwork and it doesn't take a beancounter to steer them wrong; they can do that all by themselves.

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RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

An environment like that will end up destroying itself. Polish up your resume and get out before it destroys you too.

Jeff Mirisola, CSWE
My Blog

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

Hard situation, here's two cents over morning coffee:

"....for a little over two years. My office is one of about a dozen total. The first year, without exaggeration, was just about perfect. In addition to the great compensation package, coworkers, and atmosphere, everyone had just enough work to stay busy and yet only demand a 40-45 hour workweek"

Sounds like this may be, fundamentally a really good company. Good in the sense of how they treat people.

Sounds like about a year ago things started south for you, north for the business revenue, and south for the employee experience.

A year is a long time to experience the pressure you describe and I definitely feel for you. But I am wondering if you have a situation where there is a really good company and good ownership, struggling to adjust to zooming revenues after years of recession induced dearth. I think it's hard to adjust one office, and harder for 12 offices as they become more and more insulated, distant, from the 'production level' engineers.

Anyways.... just some thoughts, I'll hold on to my two cents as I don't think they make them with copper anymore anyways.... Good Luck!

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

Quote:

Is this a hopeless situation that's unique to my employer and would warrant me to leave?

Nah. It's standard. Happens every 10 years in the development cycle. In three to four years your company will finally have grown to about 40 employees and have the corporate standards and practices in place to deal with the appropriate workload, and then, the economy will crash. You'll be back to 7 people doing the work of 15, but furloughed, and if you work hard enough your company can make it through the recession intact so the owner can sell it to someone on the Top 5 ENR list and retire.

Then in 2025, someone is going to log on to eng-tips and post the same question you're posting now. Just like I saw happening all around me in 2005.

Best advice I can give you is to (nicely) demand your piece of the pie. Make sure they're paying you overtime, or bonuses, or something. Right now, ownership is making bank, and you need to be banking your cut for the next crash.

Then again, I'm a cynic.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

(OP)
JedClampett,

Most of our projects are on a lump-sum basis. Interestingly, we presently have a project that's on an hourly basis, however, the contract contains a stipulation that, for each employee, anything over 40 hours is not billable. The solution proposed by management? Each week, have employees spend their first 40 hours on this project and the rest of their time on the lump-sum projects.

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

Other offices are in the same boat? If not can you borrow resources to level the load?

Can you bring in temps?

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

Not unique to your employer.

I'm not that bad but certainly the workload is ridiculous.

Having bust a gut to keep projects on track last year, I'm now behind on several and am starting to just accept it. I hate missing customer expectations be it on schedule or performance but it's gonna happen unless something changes around here.

The advice to seek greener pastures is probably good, but when it comes to employment I'm chronically risk averse so while I look a bit I admit I'm hesitant to jump.

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What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

Fixing this is probably above your paygrade. I feel for you- it sounds like hell.

Beyond overwork, stress and burnout which are real issues but at least theoretically within each employee's control- I didn't hear any concern about engineering being done in a shoddy way such that people might get hurt. If that is a realistic concern, then you need to deal with this head on.

If somebody wants me to work O/T for no pay on fixed price projects, or worse still- doing extra billable work that your employer is paid for yet you are not- I'd ask them where my cut of the profit is. You can bet that the manager who only cares about making more sales is getting a slice of that profit, or some other "good and valuable compensation". No cut of the profit, or the slice is too little to be meaningful? Or worse still- no profit is being generated from all this extra work? No problem- no working beyond 40 hours. What are they going to do: fire you, and make their already untenable situation even worse? If so, you should probably be happy about it.

If you're getting a cut of all this extra profit, then this becomes a work/life balance issue rather than one of fairness. You only get one life, and you will have more than one job in that life if it's long enough, so I suggest you consider that when picking a point in that balance!

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

Quote (fluxdensity)

Most of our projects are on a lump-sum basis. Interestingly, we presently have a project that's on an hourly basis, however, the contract contains a stipulation that, for each employee, anything over 40 hours is not billable.

As the saying goes, "Poor planning on your part does not make an emergency on my part." In other words, just because you sold the contract at a fixed 40 hours/week doesn't mean I have to destroy my sanity to make you some profit.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

Companies run themselves out of business all the time by attempting to grow too fast. It's hard to say "no" to a job, but if your backlog is truly 3 to 5 years, the workload is going to begin culling itself as the company begins to spiral into a crash and burn as cancellations begin to appear.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

(OP)
truckandbus,

My knowledge of what goes on at the other offices is limited, but based upon what I've heard, they're busy, but not overwhelmed. At the present time, none of the other offices have staff that are available to assist us. Past attempts to outsource work to other offices have often yielded poor results. A major problem (Probably best left for another forum thread) is that each branch office has its own drafting and design standards.

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

(OP)
moltenmetal,

I really hate to revive a topic that appears to have been beaten to death on Eng-Tips, but as a salaried professional, am I really in a position to ask for some form of additional compensation for working a significant amount of overtime?

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

Yes, it's one thing to expect a salaried individual to occasionally stay late to 'get it done', or to miss a few hours here and there on travel etc. In theory this is compensated for mostly by higher base salary and partly by having some flexibility in your hours e.g. coming in 1/2 hour late because you had to drop your kid off at some school event or leaving an hour early for dr appt... without using leave etc.

However, when you're routinely operating way above 40 hours then something's got to give.

Is your base salary high enough to compensate it i.e. what is your true/effective hourly rate when you take into account all the extra time you're spending etc.?

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What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

I can see why the idea of no overtime for company principals came in, but I'm damned if I can see any logic that says that somebody working on projects priced and estimated by someone else, and with little or no control over their own workflow, and no ability to command extra resources as needed, should work for free for the benefit of the company's bottom line.

However, presumably you signed a contract, what does that say?

Mine says I get 130% for the first few hour a week over 38, or time off in lieu.

It also says that I can be asked to work up to 5 hours a week, unpaid overtime "for operational reasons"

It also says that I am entitled to a work life balance and that flexible start and stop times are generally an agreeable form of that.

The contradictions between those three sub paras are why we are rapidly unionising I suspect. FWIW I often do a lot of unpaid O/T to get through a gateway, but follow up with several days of time off in lieu.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

Have you talked to your union business agent or job steward?

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

Good one dvd!

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

3-5 years backlog.... hard to imagine clients waiting that long, but, hey what do I know....

The business appears to:
A) know how to get contracts.
B) be overwhelmed/worked-understaffed- what have you....
C) not be sure what to do in that they haven't done anything as yet to assist the production level engineers
D) has tried outsourcing but lacked the management expertise/commitment to ensure quality

Maybe its time to start your own biz, and your current company can be your first client!

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

Quote (fluxdensity)

I really hate to revive a topic that appears to have been beaten to death on Eng-Tips, but as a salaried professional, am I really in a position to ask for some form of additional compensation for working a significant amount of overtime?

The answer to your question is yes.

In my opinion, not asking for additional compensation when overtime is compelled from you is unethical, because it devalues the services of other professional engineers who provide those services. Again, we're not talking about occasional, short term extra work that comes as a natural part of being a salaried employee much less a professional- we're talking about extra hours which are compelled on an ongoing basis.

There is nothing wrong with making a sweat equity investment in a company in return for a share of the profit. There is also nothing wrong with working O/T in return for time in lieu that you can reasonably expect to take, or for a bonus or shares or other compensation- it doesn't need to be time and a half or even hourly- but it must be SOMETHING, otherwise your extra effort is being assigned a value of ZERO. If you think you're doing this extra work as a means to curry favour with your existing boss, ask yourself what happens when they leave or are fired?

Some use the notion of "professionalism" as a whip to compel otherwise intelligent people with a good work ethic to enslave themselves and to accept working conditions that no tradesman would accept. The trouble is, the very best employees tend to have a low tolerance for failure. If they are given too much work, they will make heroic efforts to get it done merely to avoid feeling like they've failed. That's a trap- a means by which you can be exploited for profit by others.

What your company needs to do is to a) hire and train sufficient numbers of people to do the work they have in hand, or b) accept less work by picking and choosing projects to suit the staffing levels they can manage. They may need, for a short time, some flexibility from you as a professional to help them bridge the gap if they choose option a), but I've heard no evidence from you that such a plan is in place. If you give them access to option c), compelling uncompensated overtime from existing staff and allowing the senior management or shareholders to pocket all the additional profit, then c) is what you'll get.

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

All these things are becoming "normal" nowadays - soon it will be impossible to find a company where one doesn't need to work late nights, weekends, involving lot of stress, poor quality etc. There are two key reasons for why this happens:

1) The "infinite growth" B/S concept. No company/owner or executive board are happy with the profit they make. If they make 1 million (1 billion) after taxes in this year, for the next year they want 2 millions (billions). If they make 2 millions (billions) next year, the next next year they want 3 millions-billions. Whilst I agree that there should be an incentive always, this greed-concept has turned money into only possible/perceptible incentive. What about reduced work hours? Or more vacation days? Why does someone always need to make more and more money, money, money? We are led by cheap, ignorant people. In a vast majority of cases.

2) The market is getting flooded with cheaper and cheaper companies, who claim that "they can do it" for less time and less money, and yet still so good. The companies who used to be benchmarks in their field of operation are now struggling to get clients, and trying to get as many jobs as possible - all because of these cheap crooks. So what was once a quiet and charming territory became a lions den. It doesn't look promising in future.

Dejan IVANOVIC
Process Engineer, MSChE

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

Quote (EmmanuelTop)

All these things are becoming "normal" nowadays - soon it will be impossible to find a company where one doesn't need to work late nights, weekends, involving lot of stress, poor quality etc.

No, that's a matter of choices. I've worked my whole career without having worked a single Saturday or Sunday except when travelling on business.

I once worked 30 hours per week of uncompensated overtime for month after month. I haven't worked an hour of uncompensated overtime in 22 years.

Choices matter.

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

Fully agree with you, Molten. It has been my choice during all those years - I never worked more unless I wanted it and/or enjoyed it.

I just find it so common nowadays, people from all continents and all branches, complaining (for reason) about the same thing. And it seems like those who decide to stay in such companies and obey this frustrating culture, are making the whole system work as it works, and continuing to exist. Or is it too arrogant to think in this way? I don't know the answer. But I realized on many cases what "herd psychology" means, and how it helps a certain culture to survive.

The answer could be...?

Dejan IVANOVIC
Process Engineer, MSChE

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

Fluxdensity's company may be one of those "cheap" companies that EmmanuelTop refers to. They may be cutting their margin so thin that the only way they can make any profit is by getting as many jobs as possible and then getting "free" labor if you will, to complete them. I have seen this so many times with utility contractors that underbid public sector work and eventually spiral out of business.

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

Had a job some time within the last 10 years like that... expected you to work 50+ hours/week just because you were above a certain level. They loved the quality of my work, they loved the ideas coming out of my cube (those are almost verbatim quotes from management, BTW)... yet the wanted me to work MORE. Quantity was praised more highly than quality. I chose not to compete with that level of ignorance and moved along from that position. I wonder what type of quantity they managed to squeeze out of the next person to fill my position...

Since then, every position I've held has been 40 hours/week. If you work more, you get paid hourly (or bank equivalent comp time). Long weeks still happen from time to time, but at least I'm compensated appropriately for them.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

If I were fluxdensity's manager and I wanted to do some actual work I'd:

a/ grab one of the existing senior engineers
b/ hire 4 new wet behind the ears
c/ set up a section comprising a and b to do the drudge work on the backlog so that
d/ all the remaining existing engineers can clear the 3-5 year backlog by working on well defined tasks with complete information


Needless to say Mr A would need to be rather more competent than average at people-stuff.


Cheers

Greg Locock


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RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

Greg: exactly what we do, except for one thing- we take 'em even wetter behind the ears as co-op students, then we pick the best ones and hire them full time. On a per salary dollar expended basis, our best co-op students are some of the most productive employees in the company. When you have a crew of engineers who mostly came up through the co-op route themselves (which tends to happen if you practice this for a while), they soon realize just how much of what they now consider to be drudge work is actually interesting and stimulating learning experience-generating work for a co-op. Adding the co-ops to the mix actually improves the work experience for both groups as a result.

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

One of my 'drudge work' jobs was counting semi trailers on our site in birmingham. We quite literally had missing loads of components on 20 ton trailers because there was no proper way of documenting where a trailer was parked/abandoned when it came on site. Now, i didn't go to university and learn Fourier analysis just so I could wander around muddy parking sites in the pouring rain counting trailers. But I did a) find a few years of my wages in missing bits that we were short of and (b) at least initiated the idea that we could make the system less chaotic, and pointed out to my then boss, the finance manager, that this was costing us money, always a tactic that worked. Long story short, I agree drudge work is what you make of it. Of course these days the semis are brought in to a specified loading bay at an assigned time, unloaded directly to their final destination in plant, and then buzz off again, no on site storage required.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

fluxdensity, first of all, you need to fix up your resume, because that may be the only way out of this.

And with that done ... you need to put an end to the stress, for your own sake.

Arrive at 8:30 AM. Work until noon. Take a lunch break. Go home at 5:00 PM. (Or some close variation thereof.) But not on weekends. On weekends, you shall be a no-show.

If the 5:00 PM departure happens in the midst of a meeting, leave anyhow. Make a point of being noticed.

Very shortly, expect to be called into a manager's office. Lay down the law. Point out that you need to cut the amount of stress in your life, and that means no more overwork, no more unpaid overtime.

There is a significant possibility that you will be fired. If so, that's why you fixed up your resume. And if so, it will be for the better. Of course, in view of the work backlog, it would be stupid of them to do this. But if they do ... that's why it's for the better for you. It's better not to be working for stupid people.

But there is also a significant possibility that other people in your office who are in the same position that you are, will also take up the cause ... and it might be worth filling in a few of these people who you figure might be sympathetic to your cause, so that a co-ordinated action can be taken ... then it's harder for management to fire anyone, especially if they can't pin down the instigator.

If you still have a job, you now need to lay down the law with whoever schedules your work. Learn to say no. Learn to say "Not going to happen". Or, "Which existing currently-scheduled job do I delay so as to be able to take on this rush job?" And make sure you document this so that you don't get blamed later. Email is good. Get emailed confirmations. And if asked for how long something is going to take, don't forget to double it before you give an answer.

RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

There is another possible response Brian, they may not lay you off now because they need all the help they can get.

However, they will remember and should work fall short in the future you may be first on the chopping block for not being their definition of a team player or what have you.

Or you may just find yourself on the promotion slow track, or below average raises, or stuck with miserable tasks...

Not saying don't stand up the boss, but just because there isn't an immediate negative consequence doesn't mean it won't happen.

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RE: Uncontrolled expansion, poor management, burnout, and more

There's a way to avoid working uncompensated time without being an @ss about it. Chances are, the person telling you that the uncompensated work needs to be done is getting the shaft by the people making the real money, just like you are- or perhaps only a little less than you are.

Brown-nosing by working for free is unreliable at best. They may remember your extra efforts during slow times, or the people who are supposed to remember may get fired or laid off and therefore the whole business will simply forget. Your efforts will have been absorbed for no benefit to you whatsoever. And since you gave it, for free, what was it worth to you anyway, or to them? They got it for free out of you...

I recommend that you sell your extra time, rather than donating it. If you really have the extra time and effort for donation, donate to a truly worth charity- not to a for-profit business. Again we're not talking about a short term thing that is truly short term, with an end in sight- in that case you can and should help out. But when it becomes compelled rather than asked for, it's no longer fair game in my opinion.

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