Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
(OP)
Would like to discuss the validity of the following:
Reinforced concrete pier:
8-#4 bars (16 lf total) horizontal steel in 28"x28" footing
Footing is formed with plastic tube base that receives tube form. The tube base has holes in the top to help the concrete flow.
Tube form is a 12" diameter commercial grade form, coated cardboard. Form is typically stripped just below grade.
Vertical steel bars are 4-#5 bars with hooks. Approximately 16 lf of steel will be below grade, for a total of 32 lf.
Bare copper conductor 4 AWG attached to #4 bars horizontal and #5 bars vertical
In a discussion with an electrical contractor he thinks that the concrete is protected by the forms and will limit the amount of moisture that the concrete will absorb and therefore negate its conductivity.
All opinions welcome.
Thanks in advance.
Reinforced concrete pier:
8-#4 bars (16 lf total) horizontal steel in 28"x28" footing
Footing is formed with plastic tube base that receives tube form. The tube base has holes in the top to help the concrete flow.
Tube form is a 12" diameter commercial grade form, coated cardboard. Form is typically stripped just below grade.
Vertical steel bars are 4-#5 bars with hooks. Approximately 16 lf of steel will be below grade, for a total of 32 lf.
Bare copper conductor 4 AWG attached to #4 bars horizontal and #5 bars vertical
In a discussion with an electrical contractor he thinks that the concrete is protected by the forms and will limit the amount of moisture that the concrete will absorb and therefore negate its conductivity.
All opinions welcome.
Thanks in advance.






RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
IEEE 142/2007 Table 4-7—Current capacity of building rebar
For #4 it will be 32 A/feet -for 1 sec. clearing time. So 16 ft. Isc=32*16=512 A
If the clearing time will be 5 cycles [no delay] will be 112 A/ft [1792 A total]
If ground-fault currents will be more elevated, the pier concrete may destructively explode concrete due to rapid drying out of the moisture in the concrete surrounding the rebar .
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
This may be difficult to comply with for smaller piers.
Bill
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"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
Art. 250.52 Grounding Electrodes. (A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding. (3) Concrete-Encased Electrode.
“A concrete-encased electrode shall consist of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of either (1) or (2):
(1) One or more bare or zinc galvanized or other electrically conductive coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of not less than 13 mm (1⁄2 in.) in diameter, installed in one continuous 6.0 m (20 ft) length, or if in multiple pieces connected together by the usual steel tie wires, exothermic welding, welding, or other effective means to create a 6.0 m (20 ft) or greater length; or
(2) Bare copper conductor not smaller than 4 AWG.
Metallic components shall be encased by at least 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete and shall be located horizontally within that portion of a concrete foundation or footing that is in direct contact with the earth or within vertical foundations or structural components or members that are in direct contact with the earth.”
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
I meet the requirements for the concrete encased electrode.
The debate is centered on whether or not the formwork will limit the amount of moisture that the concrete will absorb and therefore negate its conductivity.
The construction details are described in the 1st post.
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
Bottom of footing is 3'4" below grade.
Partial height of pier is below grade.
The question would be with respect to moisture and conductivity.
Thanks
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
I would consider placing an approved grounding plate in the bottom of the excavation and pouring the pier on top of it.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
I believe I have 20 lf; it is already installed. The discussion centers around the use of the forms.
Thanks
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
Only the top of the bottom form is plastic.
It actually has small holes in the top; when considering migration/wicking of moisture.
The bottom of the form is exposed to earth.
The vertical steel is formed with a cardboard tube form.
7anoter4,
Not sure what your concern is regarding cracking of concrete?
The is enough steel present to control cracking from a design standpoint.
The detailing meets the NEC 250.52 requirements. The main question is whether the means of construction (forms), reduce the exposure to the moisture in the soil and therefore severely reduces its conductivity.
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
In the case of a ground fault the current will flow from the -above the footing- source to the
lower part in contact with the soil through the vertical rebars. This current will heat the vertical rebar and the concrete around this rebar. This concrete will loose part of its moisture and –depending on how high this current will be , on duration and frequency of faults –the concrete around the vertical rebar will dry enough to present dangerous cracks.
So, usually-theoretically at least-the soil -around the footing- moisture could mitigate the concrete drying, in a way[my opinion].
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
The following is taken from an article regarding concrete as conductive:
"The principle of the Ufer ground is simple, it is very effective and inexpensive to install during new construction. The Ufer ground takes advantage of concrete’s properties to good advantage. Concrete absorbs moisture quickly and looses moisture very slowly. The mineral properties of concrete (lime and others) and their inherent pH means concrete has a supply of ions to conduct current. The soil around concrete becomes "doped" by the concrete, as a result, the pH of the soil rises and reduces what would normally be 1000 ohm meter soil conditions (hard to get a good ground). The moisture present, (concrete gives up moisture very slowly), in combination with the "doped" soil, make a good conductor for electrical energy or lightning currents."
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
[As per IEEE 142/2007 Table 4-7—Current capacity of building rebar- for 5 cycles [0.083 sec] 112 A/foot permissible Isc=20*112=2240 A].
Let's say this current will spread equally in 4 #5 vertical rebars in order to convey the current from the source to bottom rebar system. Isc/rebar=2240/4=560 A.
It seems that in this case no temperature rise in this rebar is expected. However, if the short-circuit will be 30 kA will produce 60oC [a dangerous temperature for concrete].
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
"Metallic components shall be encased by AT LEAST 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete"
Maximum it is not indicated-as far as I know. However, in order to reduce the grounding resistance the maximum concrete thickness has not to be far from this. If the soil resistivity it is more than concrete resistivity then the concrete thickness around a rebar may be more.
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
"250.52(A)(3) Concrete-Encased Electrode. A concrete-encased electrode shall consist of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of either (1) or (2):
(1) One or more bare or zinc galvanized or other electrically conductive coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of not less than 13 mm (½ in.) in dia meter, installed in one continuous 6.0 m (20 ft) length, or if in multiple pieces connected together by the usual steel tie wires, exothermic welding, welding, or other effective means to create a 6.0 m (20 ft)or greater length; or
(2) Bare copper conductor not smaller than 4 AWG
Metallic components shall be encased by at least 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete and shall be located horizontally within that portion of a concrete foundation or footing that is in direct contact with the earth or within vertical foundations or structural components or members that are in direct contact with the earth. If multiple concrete-encased electrodes are present at a building or structure, it shall be permissible to bond only one into the grounding electrode system.
Informational Note: Concrete installed with insulation, vapor barriers, films or similar items separating the concrete from the earth is not considered to be in “direct contact” with the earth."
With the form left in place, I am not sure that the concrete is in "direct contact with the earth" as required by the NEC rule.
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
The value of the ufer ground depends on the concrete being a lower resistivity than the soil. From IEEE Std 80-2013:
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
The bottom of the footing is in direct contact with the soil. The form is like a turtle shell, no plastic on bottom.
The vertical form is cardboard that will deteriorate over time.
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
Would the ground fault current also leave through the vertical rebar to the surrounding soil assuming the cardboard form disintegrates over time?
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
I think there are two problems with this detail. As has been noted by other posters, there appears to be 5" of concrete between the lowest horizontal layer of rebar and earth. This is the only steel that would even be in play. As waross pointed out, this would not comply with the Canadian code requirements. Even in the US, with the sides of this concrete insulated from earth by the form, I am not sure that I would accept that as being in direct contact with earth if I was doing the plan checking on this installation, (which I do on many others). I would require an additional auxiliary electrode, either plate or rod, connected to this system. You did not mention how this grounding electrode is connected to the electrical system. Is the copper conductor continued up through the footing to the ground bus at the service panel? Is all the steel at that level welded together to form a continuous length? The second problem is that you do not appear to have the requisite 20', (6M), of length IMHO.
EEJaime
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
There is 3" of cover for the horizontal steel. 2" of cover for the vertical steel.
The vertical steel bars are "L" shaped 12" horizontal. Therefore there is just over 20 lf in the footing.
The copper conductor continued up through the footing to the ground bus at the service panel and is clamped to the bars with UL rated clamps.
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 12" horizontal leg of the verticals is overlapped and wire-tied or cadwelded to the horizontal bars. Those lengths would not be counted as additional developed length, it is the same conductor as the horizontal members to which they are attached. The 2" of cover for the verticals does not come into play because those are 2" from a form, not from earth. I still don't see how this would be compliant.
EEJaime
RE: Ufer Ground Pier Foundation
All bars are wire tied.
250.52(A)(3) Concrete-Encased Electrode states
"One or more bare or zinc galvanized or other electrically conductive coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of not less than 13 mm (½ in.) in dia meter installed in one continuous 6.0 m (20 ft) length, or if in multiple pieces connected together by the usual steel tie wires, exothermic welding, welding, or other effective means to create a 6.0 m (20 ft) or greater length"