Illinois SE Application Deferral
Illinois SE Application Deferral
(OP)
This one is for the non-Illinois based SEs who have applied for the Illinois SE license less than 8 years after graduating college with a BSE degree.
Has anyone ever been deferred because of issues with their transcript? I recently was deferred, although am protesting, because my transcript did not have enough structural design courses. I was 8 credit hours short. This surprised me because I had attended a major midwestern (Big Ten) public school that was ABET accredited. The last thing I expected to be an issue was my transcript.
In looking at the requirements for my degree (BSE in Civil Engineering) everything is pretty much set in stone save 3 technical electives (9 credit hours) where I have a choice. I spent 6 of the 9 hours on structural engineering courses and 3 on a water resources course. If I had a redo I would take all 9 in structural, but that is beside the point. Given the fact that I was apparently 8 hours short to meet Illinois standards the extra 3 hours wouldn't have helped.
Given the very restrictive course choices, it would really be impossible to become an SE in Illinois without taking some post-graduate courses. I was unaware of any MS requirements for Illinois. If my protest works then all is well and good, but if it doesn't I'm left with the option of taking 8 semester hours of structural design courses (something I'm not opposed to but don't have the time and money for) or work another 18 months to get to 8 years of experience.
Any empathy out there? Has anyone else found themselves in a similar situation?
Has anyone ever been deferred because of issues with their transcript? I recently was deferred, although am protesting, because my transcript did not have enough structural design courses. I was 8 credit hours short. This surprised me because I had attended a major midwestern (Big Ten) public school that was ABET accredited. The last thing I expected to be an issue was my transcript.
In looking at the requirements for my degree (BSE in Civil Engineering) everything is pretty much set in stone save 3 technical electives (9 credit hours) where I have a choice. I spent 6 of the 9 hours on structural engineering courses and 3 on a water resources course. If I had a redo I would take all 9 in structural, but that is beside the point. Given the fact that I was apparently 8 hours short to meet Illinois standards the extra 3 hours wouldn't have helped.
Given the very restrictive course choices, it would really be impossible to become an SE in Illinois without taking some post-graduate courses. I was unaware of any MS requirements for Illinois. If my protest works then all is well and good, but if it doesn't I'm left with the option of taking 8 semester hours of structural design courses (something I'm not opposed to but don't have the time and money for) or work another 18 months to get to 8 years of experience.
Any empathy out there? Has anyone else found themselves in a similar situation?






RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
So a PE or SE license from other states do not count towards missing undergraduate courses?
If so, that is ridiculous to me.
I could understand if someone had no background in structural design.
For me, I learned more in my first couple years working than I did for all of my undergraduate courses.
What's next, deciding which schools count?
All of these rules between the different states are confusing and hard to understand.
From what I've heard about the SE exam, I doubt many people are lucking their way through that exam and should be competent structural engineers.
Why aren't the requirements:
Did you graduate from an ABET accredited school? Check
Do you have a clean background? Check
Do you have experience practicing engineering under a licensed professional? Check
Do you have licensed professional engineering references? Check
Did you pass the NATIONAL exam? Check
Congratulations, you are now a licensed professional.
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
"If you are a graduate of an approved engineering curriculum, 4 years of structural engineering experience is required. An approved engineering curriculum shall include a minimum of 18 semester hours (27 quarter hours) of structural analysis behavior and design courses. A minimum of 9 semester hours are required in structural design."
ABET is not mentioned in the application, but it is the most common school accreditation. From the above quote it seems that Illinois chooses acceptable schools based on their own criteria. Unfortunately, as of right now, it doesn't seem that The University of Michigan is approved.
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
Each applicant shall have passed a minimum of 18 semester hours of courses in the analysis, behavior, and design of structural elements and systems. These courses may include, but not be limited to:
1) Structural analysis courses such as determinate and indeterminate structures and stability; and
2) A minimum of 9 semester hours are required in structural design courses that may include structural steel, reinforced concrete, prestressed concrete, foundation, masonry and wood engineering.
3) Courses such as mechanics (statics and dynamics), mechanics of materials, properties of materials, and soil mechanics shall not be included in the minimum 18 semester hours.
From here: http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/068/...
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer. www.fepc.us
(Just passed the 16-hour SE exam, woohoo!)
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer. www.fepc.us
(Just passed the 16-hour SE exam, woohoo!)
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
I agree that the third requirement is ridiculous because, as you said, those are fundamental to the structural engineering profession. It looks like, given that, my protest will probably be denied and I'll have to wait another year and a half to be able to get my license.
This is incredibly frustrating. I spent about a year and a half preparing for, taking, and passing the SE exam and now that the test is behind me I have to wait another year and a half before I can get my license.
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
...Though something tells me I'm preaching to the choir here.
Maybe if enough of us protest we can get the board to revise the rules? Seems like a long shot, though. I have almost zero skin in this one being in Maine but I don't want to see note 3 become the standard for SE license on the East coast and might just get the IL SE just to have it on my resume.
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer. www.fepc.us
(Just passed the 16-hour SE exam, woohoo!)
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
Yes, national licensure would be the best way to go, but it is usually about money and control, not safety.
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
If interested, here's a short video of him discussing the topic with physicians at the Mayo Clinic. Link
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
I felt quite unequipped coming out of college, but a few years of experience changed that quite a bit. That being said, the curriculum on the undergraduate level is in serious need of revision. I don't know if you can legitimize a Civil Engineering degree with so many different internal disciplines. You can probably make the case for numerous stand-alone degrees from within the broad civil umbrella.
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
I also agree with PE2012 about national licenses vs national exams.
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer. www.fepc.us
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
I should hear back in a couple weeks regarding the application...fingers crossed.
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
You might want to read Milton Friedman's full argument before saying that though I'll concede that it's a shocking statement to make. My (unfairly-brief) distillation of it, though, is that it would lead to better practice and more stringent requirements...the insurance companies and tort lawyers would see to that.
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
@PE2012 - To answer your question about what degrees meet this education requirement, my undergrad degree is in architectural engineering with a structural emphasis. I had no problems meeting the requirements and getting my license in Illinois. I took steel design, wood design, concrete design, a high seismic course, and masonry to name a few. The civil students were in some of my other classes and on the whole, they were not as capable at structural design. I am not saying Illinois has a perfect policy on this, but it seems that they have reacted to the general situation as I have described above.
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
Actually, Friedman's position was that it is a modern version of the medieval trade guilds, in other words, an artificial barrier to entry to preserve a monopoly. This is more adequately put forth in his book, not in that short video, of course.
As one quick piece of anecdotal evidence in support of his position Friedman pointed out how, in the years leading up to WWII when there was a large influx of displaced European doctors into the US the overall number of practicing doctors nevertheless remained virtually unchanged. The licensing body, the American Medical Association, saw to that: they changed the rules to ensure it.
Not unlike what the Illinois licensing board has done to Michigan grads, from the sound of it. What'd y'all do? Beat 'em in football, or something?
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
That is a huge problem in my eyes and one that is creating a push for requiring a Masters. Unfortunately I think the solution is in the wrong place. The push should be to reform undergraduate curriculum rather than require more years of school. However, the education industry will make more money if more school is required.
Maybe it is because I have a degree in Civil Engineering and practice Structural Engineering that I think that it is a bigger issue in my field, but I do think that the problem is magnified within the Civil Engineering curriculum. I know all the fields are related, but the difference between designing a building structure and designing a storm-water management system is significant, but they are both "Civil Engineering" and thus they serve to dilute a student's education by adding courses that may not be relevant enough to be worthwhile.
Just going off of the technical areas listed in my former school's curriculum there are following for civil engineering: Construction, Structural, Materials, Geotechnical, Hydraulics/Hydrology, Environmental, and Transportation. How can that all fit into a meaningful undergraduate degree?
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
That is the reason I am planning to take my SE in TX. Even thought it is not called "SE" right now, it will be soon reconized as SE.
Its the same 16 hr SE exam thou
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
I've been looking at a lot of other firm's drawings in the past couple months and I have been shocked at some of the designs going out with seals. Lateral design is typically lacking(especially in wood buildings) and that's mostly what I was taught in graduate school. I am okay with more stringent requirements, but I don't fall into the case of the OP so its easy to be biased.
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral
The banks in the US used to be state-regulated as well, and for the same reason.