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Illinois SE Application Deferral

Illinois SE Application Deferral

Illinois SE Application Deferral

(OP)
This one is for the non-Illinois based SEs who have applied for the Illinois SE license less than 8 years after graduating college with a BSE degree.

Has anyone ever been deferred because of issues with their transcript? I recently was deferred, although am protesting, because my transcript did not have enough structural design courses. I was 8 credit hours short. This surprised me because I had attended a major midwestern (Big Ten) public school that was ABET accredited. The last thing I expected to be an issue was my transcript.

In looking at the requirements for my degree (BSE in Civil Engineering) everything is pretty much set in stone save 3 technical electives (9 credit hours) where I have a choice. I spent 6 of the 9 hours on structural engineering courses and 3 on a water resources course. If I had a redo I would take all 9 in structural, but that is beside the point. Given the fact that I was apparently 8 hours short to meet Illinois standards the extra 3 hours wouldn't have helped.

Given the very restrictive course choices, it would really be impossible to become an SE in Illinois without taking some post-graduate courses. I was unaware of any MS requirements for Illinois. If my protest works then all is well and good, but if it doesn't I'm left with the option of taking 8 semester hours of structural design courses (something I'm not opposed to but don't have the time and money for) or work another 18 months to get to 8 years of experience.

Any empathy out there? Has anyone else found themselves in a similar situation?

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

I read an architect can stamp structure drawings in Illinois but not a PE civil.

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

This happened to me too. The issue was confusion over the difference between how my school counted credit hours and how IL counts them. Using my masters coursework to make up the difference was easier than trying to win that argument so that's what I did. Fortunately, they were willing to accept non-ABET accredited coursework. Technically, there's no such thing as an ABET accredited M.Sc. program

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

Do concrete, steel, masonry, and wood design classes count?

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

(OP)
They counted my RC and Steel design courses, so I'd assume both masonry and wood would count as well. Of the 128 credit hours that was required for my Civil Engineering degree, only 3 courses were deemed "structural analysis and design" courses.

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

I have no experience in Illinois but those requirements seem odd to me.
So a PE or SE license from other states do not count towards missing undergraduate courses?
If so, that is ridiculous to me.
I could understand if someone had no background in structural design.
For me, I learned more in my first couple years working than I did for all of my undergraduate courses.
What's next, deciding which schools count?

All of these rules between the different states are confusing and hard to understand.
From what I've heard about the SE exam, I doubt many people are lucking their way through that exam and should be competent structural engineers.

Why aren't the requirements:
Did you graduate from an ABET accredited school? Check
Do you have a clean background? Check
Do you have experience practicing engineering under a licensed professional? Check
Do you have licensed professional engineering references? Check
Did you pass the NATIONAL exam? Check

Congratulations, you are now a licensed professional.

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

I do not envy structural engineers south of the border... It really should be done like it is in Canada.

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

(OP)
This is directly from the application.
"If you are a graduate of an approved engineering curriculum, 4 years of structural engineering experience is required. An approved engineering curriculum shall include a minimum of 18 semester hours (27 quarter hours) of structural analysis behavior and design courses. A minimum of 9 semester hours are required in structural design."
ABET is not mentioned in the application, but it is the most common school accreditation. From the above quote it seems that Illinois chooses acceptable schools based on their own criteria. Unfortunately, as of right now, it doesn't seem that The University of Michigan is approved.

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

This is likely the issue:

Each applicant shall have passed a minimum of 18 semester hours of courses in the analysis, behavior, and design of structural elements and systems. These courses may include, but not be limited to:

1) Structural analysis courses such as determinate and indeterminate structures and stability; and

2) A minimum of 9 semester hours are required in structural design courses that may include structural steel, reinforced concrete, prestressed concrete, foundation, masonry and wood engineering.

3) Courses such as mechanics (statics and dynamics), mechanics of materials, properties of materials, and soil mechanics shall not be included in the minimum 18 semester hours.


From here: http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/068/...

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer. www.fepc.us
(Just passed the 16-hour SE exam, woohoo!)

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

Note that I think the 3rd note is absolute garbage. Why the heck does materials, soil mechanics, and statics not count?! They are fundamental structural engineering courses and are also practically required to be known for the SE exam.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer. www.fepc.us
(Just passed the 16-hour SE exam, woohoo!)

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

It looks like they are trying to differentiate the SE requirements from the typical engineering degree. Almost all engineers take statics, dynamics, mechanics of materials, and soils. What they are saying is: SE's need to have structural specific design courses.

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

(OP)
The issue I'm having is that my civil engineering degree from a highly respected engineering school is somehow inadequate for what they require. There is then an implicit requirement of post-graduate coursework because once all the required courses are taken there isn't room to meet Illinois' requirements. What undergrad degree in this country meets that criteria?

I agree that the third requirement is ridiculous because, as you said, those are fundamental to the structural engineering profession. It looks like, given that, my protest will probably be denied and I'll have to wait another year and a half to be able to get my license.

This is incredibly frustrating. I spent about a year and a half preparing for, taking, and passing the SE exam and now that the test is behind me I have to wait another year and a half before I can get my license.

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

Your issue PE2012 is precisely why I support the SE license/exam while simultaneously do not support anything that requires extra years of experience, post-grad course-work, or other "time wasting" efforts to get a PE/SE license. A BS with emphasis on structural engineering courses, 4 years experience, and passing the rigorous SE exam should be all the qualifications you require to get an SE. Maybe throw a state specific test in for flavor if it makes sense.

...Though something tells me I'm preaching to the choir here.

Maybe if enough of us protest we can get the board to revise the rules? Seems like a long shot, though. I have almost zero skin in this one being in Maine but I don't want to see note 3 become the standard for SE license on the East coast and might just get the IL SE just to have it on my resume.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer. www.fepc.us
(Just passed the 16-hour SE exam, woohoo!)

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

(OP)
This probably is in the wrong forum, but I think it is a combination of Civil Engineering degrees being too broad a the undergraduate level because civil engineering is a very broad topic and states (maybe just Illinois) being overly restrictive.

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

Exactly right PE2012. My firm once hired a fellow that somehow graduated without a single course in steel design. He hadn't even heard of lateral torsional buckling etc.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

Illinois has a history of making it difficult for out of state engineers to work there. I had a senior engineer who had a masters from U Texas but his undergrad was from Mexico. We was/is one of the best engineers I know and spoke English as well as I do (and my mom was a English teacher.) They required him to take the TOEFL, even with licenses in multiple states and many years of practice in the US.
Yes, national licensure would be the best way to go, but it is usually about money and control, not safety.

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

Milton Friedman's PhD dissertation was on the topic of professional licensure and he summarizes it clearly and succinctly in Chapter 9 of his excellent book, "Capitalism and Freedom".

If interested, here's a short video of him discussing the topic with physicians at the Mayo Clinic. Link

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

(OP)
I am very hesitant about the idea of national licenses. Changing licensing requirements on the national level would be much more cumbersome than on the state level. I'd rather have a few bad apples than a bad tree. We have national exams and I think that helps standardize things.

I felt quite unequipped coming out of college, but a few years of experience changed that quite a bit. That being said, the curriculum on the undergraduate level is in serious need of revision. I don't know if you can legitimize a Civil Engineering degree with so many different internal disciplines. You can probably make the case for numerous stand-alone degrees from within the broad civil umbrella.

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

Nice video Archie. I personally would take monopoly of licensure by an entity vs. unlicensed practice (engineering, medical, or otherwise).

I also agree with PE2012 about national licenses vs national exams.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer. www.fepc.us

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

(OP)
I think what Friedman was getting at wasn't necessarily unlicensed practice but rather eliminating monopolies on licensing. I think licensing is a good idea because it can convey a general idea of a minimum level of competency though there are always exceptions. Perhaps organizations like ASCE, NCEES, NSPE, SEA-(insert state here) could provide their own licenses. I'd imagine that there would be a move toward a standardized test across state lines at least. Insurance companies could base their rates on qualifications of the design/construction team. Just ideas.

I should hear back in a couple weeks regarding the application...fingers crossed.

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

TME,

You might want to read Milton Friedman's full argument before saying that though I'll concede that it's a shocking statement to make. My (unfairly-brief) distillation of it, though, is that it would lead to better practice and more stringent requirements...the insurance companies and tort lawyers would see to that.

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

I agree with PE2012 and KootK. I have seen several engineers with civil degrees with very little structural design knowledge. The lateral torsional buckling example that KootK mentioned is all too familiar.

@PE2012 - To answer your question about what degrees meet this education requirement, my undergrad degree is in architectural engineering with a structural emphasis. I had no problems meeting the requirements and getting my license in Illinois. I took steel design, wood design, concrete design, a high seismic course, and masonry to name a few. The civil students were in some of my other classes and on the whole, they were not as capable at structural design. I am not saying Illinois has a perfect policy on this, but it seems that they have reacted to the general situation as I have described above.

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

PE2012,

Actually, Friedman's position was that it is a modern version of the medieval trade guilds, in other words, an artificial barrier to entry to preserve a monopoly. This is more adequately put forth in his book, not in that short video, of course.

As one quick piece of anecdotal evidence in support of his position Friedman pointed out how, in the years leading up to WWII when there was a large influx of displaced European doctors into the US the overall number of practicing doctors nevertheless remained virtually unchanged. The licensing body, the American Medical Association, saw to that: they changed the rules to ensure it.

Not unlike what the Illinois licensing board has done to Michigan grads, from the sound of it. What'd y'all do? Beat 'em in football, or something?

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

(OP)
I had no trouble in Ohio, and I can't imagine that the amount of disdain for Michigan grads would be any higher than it is there!

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

There was an eye-opening discussion on another forum (sorry- I can't find it) that discussed current classes being taken vs. what they were 20-30 years ago. It seems that the classes we took at the BS level back then are now being taken at the MS level instead. Might explain some of Illinois issues.

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

(OP)
hawkaz,

That is a huge problem in my eyes and one that is creating a push for requiring a Masters. Unfortunately I think the solution is in the wrong place. The push should be to reform undergraduate curriculum rather than require more years of school. However, the education industry will make more money if more school is required.

Maybe it is because I have a degree in Civil Engineering and practice Structural Engineering that I think that it is a bigger issue in my field, but I do think that the problem is magnified within the Civil Engineering curriculum. I know all the fields are related, but the difference between designing a building structure and designing a storm-water management system is significant, but they are both "Civil Engineering" and thus they serve to dilute a student's education by adding courses that may not be relevant enough to be worthwhile.

Just going off of the technical areas listed in my former school's curriculum there are following for civil engineering: Construction, Structural, Materials, Geotechnical, Hydraulics/Hydrology, Environmental, and Transportation. How can that all fit into a meaningful undergraduate degree?

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

I have seen that many firms in my area, including my own, will not hire structural design engineers without a Masters degree, pretty much regardless of experience. There is a push towards making a Masters degree a prerequisite for the SE license in my state (it likely won't happen anytime soon); they talked about it all the time when I was in grad school. That being said, without my graduate curriculum, I would have missed the more relevant structural design courses (structural dynamics, post-tension design, diaphragm design etc.). As hours have been forced to be cut back out of Bachelor's programs, "non-essential" courses have been forced to move to electives or have been dropped completely; so there is some validity to what hawkaz said about degrees from today not equaling degrees from 30 years ago.

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

SE requirements in IL are horrible,

That is the reason I am planning to take my SE in TX. Even thought it is not called "SE" right now, it will be soon reconized as SE.

Its the same 16 hr SE exam thou

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

Some consider them good requirements because you can get SE's in most other states with an SE in Illinois.

I've been looking at a lot of other firm's drawings in the past couple months and I have been shocked at some of the designs going out with seals. Lateral design is typically lacking(especially in wood buildings) and that's mostly what I was taught in graduate school. I am okay with more stringent requirements, but I don't fall into the case of the OP so its easy to be biased.

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

(OP)
Unfortunately I'm in a state that doesn't recognize the SE license. I specifically need it for Illinois, so right now I'm stuck waiting and do not have the SE title. I may apply to a state that will accept my transcript so I can at least call myself an SE.

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

(OP)
Officially deferred.

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

I tell you something interesting that happened a few years back. A guy I use to work with got his SE in Illinois. But a few years later (i.e. about the time they changed the education requirements), he disappeared from their rolls. I'm not sure if they had a grandfather clause in there to protect him or not but it made me wonder. He is still a PE in other states so I'm pretty sure it wasn't any kind of disciplinary action.....and if he didn’t renew, it probably would just be listed as inactive.

RE: Illinois SE Application Deferral

Come on, folks, Chicago's gotta do something to keep those New York engineers out of their turf. It would be unfair otherwise, seeing how those New Yawkers have so many skyscrapers to practice on. Ditto the Washington State engineers using their third exam to separate themselves out from all those CalTrans-educated engineers a couple of states away. Why it's almost as if some people have no sense of charity whatsoever!

The banks in the US used to be state-regulated as well, and for the same reason.

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