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Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism
18

Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

(OP)
Years ago I noted a lot of contention between various engineers here. Since I've not participated here in 2-3 years, it is interesting to see that contention still exists. In essence, we eat our own.

We do not know how to be gracious to others. We seem to lack insight into a fundamental in life, i.e., we're all on different courses.

Younger engineers resent older engineers. Older engineers resent younger engineers. Non-degreed engineers resent degreed engineers. Degreed engineers resent PEs. Gifted engineers resent engineers that cannot make calculations or PEs that cannot make calculations. We tear each other apart and leave nothing to salvage from the exchange but hurt feelings, more resentment, more anger, and ultimately more damage to the profession of engineering.

We don't stick together. We eat each other alive.

Why can we not consider the many courses others traverse? Whether they tell us or not, can we not consider that their life has been different? Can we not consider that each decade of life has its own flavor? Can we not forbear our differences? Can we respect our differences? Can we rise above cannibalism?

We all have crap in life, from life experiences, and we all have to work on our crap. If we do not, it shows and it will ultimately bite us in the backside.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

Where did you observe this resentment? Can you make a reference (thread, post)?

Don't say "Oh, I cannot find it now" banghead because most of the misunderstanding (and resentment) starts from lack of straight conversation between people, or because of generalized statements (when you want to say something but you go 'around the world and back to 653 AD' to say it). Somebody calls that politics, somebody calls it thoughtfulness, and for some folks it is pure B/S. So we need a good example.

Dejan IVANOVIC
Process Engineer, MSChE

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

2
A refreshing perspective lacajun! And an excellent question.

My experience shows that engineers are extremely reluctant to view their own success as having anything to do with chance, good timing etc. They like to think of themselves as self-made people. This limits their compassion for others who are not succeeding, even when on a little examination it is clear that they are the victims of those factors beyond their control. That's regrettable and causes some unnecessary suffering. We would all do better to be more compassionate with one another!

Engineers tend to overgeneralize their own anecdotal experience also, in my experience. This is an evolved strategy which is professionally useful but can lead to some incorrect conclusions if it cannot be set aside as a bias when it is clearly the case. For instance, most engineers of a certain age are perfectly willing to accept the myth of a generalized shortage of engineers on face value, without giving it a second thought. Not all, but most. Mid career engineers, in my experience, are the hardest people to convince that we have a massive oversupply of engineering graduates here in Canada for this reason.

As far as intraprofessional rivalries and the like, those are not unique to or even most pronounced in the profession of engineering. Some professional engineers are very self important, that's true, but they don't measure on the same scale as lawyers or medical doctors...

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

I used to cry about this kind of crap. Then I just stopped and got more positive. Life is good. It's good to be.

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

(OP)
ET, I am not going to call anyone out or any thread out. People can gauge for themselves.

mm, agreed. This article provides insight into biases and blind spots: Surprising downsides of being clever I've talked to some people recently that readily and easily admit they've had support over their lifetimes, they were at the right place at the right time, and people have been good to them over their lifetimes. They did not reach their positions alone.

Tick, agreed and am on the same path. smile

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

I see it as the outside influence of management always trying to build a higher silo. We need to be better than the other department, company, country, ect. A sort of games thinking vs the engineers logical thinking.
And some of this comes from the military trying to make the enemy seem less than us. So some of this is a result of being played my managers.

True enough I refuse to train the engineer in the other department because he works for a guy I swear has horns (I have stories).

And no I refuse to answer an e-mail while I am driving, or eating, or in the bathroom, etc. I don't need technology controlling me like the young people.

And if you want my respect, shake my hand, cover the tat's, and remove the nose ring, and put on a wig. Respect is earned.

I actually don't see a shortage of engineers. I see a shortage of experenced engineers, and HR people who can tell the difference.

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

If I manage to eat all of you, I'll be the world's only remaining engineer, and then I win 100% of the market share.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

It doesn't bother me. As stated, we are all on different courses in life. I do not have the same viewpoint or hold the same opinions as I did when I first started coming here, and clever or snarky comments only represent where in their travels the commenter is currently at. This does not affect the value I get from the knowledge freely given here.

Like tick says, life is good and it is good to be.

"A long, long time to be gone and a short time to be here" to paraphrase Robert Hunter.

"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."
-Dalai Lama XIV

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

It's not necessarily a matter of lack of compassion, sort of. I view the world and people as mostly mechanistic. To not do something is therefore, an act of will, i.e., you CHOOSE to not act or not do something. If it's something that I think you should be doing or should have done already, like a frigging Google search, BEFORE you posted your question, then I'm not necessarily going to apply my sympathies to you, because the first I did when I say your question was to Google it. So, in my view, you CHOOSE to not do a websearch and do some reading. That's the epitome of "lazy student" syndrome. One of the reasons for my almost automatically redflagging students is that most of the time, they don't seem to have done any work, and appear to be looking for an easy handout.

As for the general contention, it often goes well beyond compassion, or even courtesy. When every reply is laced with vitriolic red-baiting and aspersions about your intelligence, it generally takes a much better person than I to not reply in kind. It seems odd to me that there are those that think nothing of accusing the scientific or engineering community as a whole of being complicit in massive conspiracies that defy rational thinking. But, this is merely a reflection of our broader society and the nearly complete lack of courtesy and politeness that has been steadily diminishing since the beginning of the 20th century

TTFN
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RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

3
I used to work in a fairly large privately owned company. The billionaire owner and Chairman collected Chinese art, and also collected talented engineers and PhDs from all relevant disciplines, from all over the world.

He and his brother the President used to make said people aware of each other, in ways that often resulted in memo wars, or even polite but personal confrontations.

For a while, I thought the brothers were doing it just to amuse themselves. ... but I'm a little slow on the uptake. After quite a while, I realized that they were using friction to rub off the rough edges and corrosion.

Eng-Tips at its best works the same way.

N smart people with different perspectives will perceive a single problem in at least N+1 ways, more likely in N! ways. It would be naive to expect all of them to propose the same solution on the first attempt.

After the initial skirmish and comparative anatomy, so to speak, those who wish to continue participating, will come back with better answers, and better defenses of those answers.

Further negotiation may eventually produce not a consensus, but a set (usually smaller than N) of avenues to investigate and to re-evaluate against the original problem, hopefully now better defined as part of the process. The process is rarely pretty, but it can be effective.

It is the responsibility of Management and The Community to minimize collateral damage and maintain some civility. That last can be especially difficult in a global community with disparate expectations for, well, everything.

If you think a particular discussion has become too contentious, you are free to Red Flag it or to ignore it.
I have tried a number of other options; none worked.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

Pamela, I've noticed it comes and goes in waves. When it comes, I either call it and ask people to remember to be civil, or step back myself for a while. Right now seems to be a bit of relative calm, but that may be that I'm simply not on here enough lately to see the chaos that is there.

In my view, there is never an excuse to be a jerk. Try your best to be polite or just step away and let someone else answer. Disagreement is fine; arguing because you're clearly the most brilliant person ever just isn't. Of course, I'm not perfect at this, but I try to do the best I can.

And welcome back, by the way. I'm glad to see you here again.

Please remember: we're not all guys!

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

It definitely feeds on itself. When I first got involved in this website there seemed to be more inquiries and a lot less members. After a while the membership increased, the inquiries died down, the crankiness cranked up, and members slunk off, thus perpetuating the cycle. I think if there were more interesting questions to answer there would be less circling and sniffing for the smell of blood in the air.

I acknowledge that this website is someone's personal property and the group needs to play by the rules, but I still think student inquiries should be welcomed - we all need to mentor the next generation.

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

"we all need to mentor the next generation"

That isn't the issue; it's the 90% that here solely to leach.

TTFN
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RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

Seems like kind of a dismal outlook.

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

Is there evidence that suggests that other professions are any different?
What I'm thinking is that two doctors give two different opinions, now they might not tell you as a member of the public what one thinks about the other's opinion but they might within their feelings amongst there own ranks.

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

Actually, isn't the opposite kind of true? Isn't that why it's always recommended to get a second opinion? My coworker has had a couple of instances already where one doctor recommended drastic surgery, while another recommended a wait and see. On the obverse is the fact that doctors's patient diagnoses are not for public consumption, so it's unlikely that there would be public discussions such as on this forum.

TTFN
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There is a homework forum hosted by engineering.com: http://www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

Its not always recommended to seek a second opinion and that's a matter of choice but my point is I don't think there is any less contention in other professions when compared to engineering.
I agree confidentiality prevents public discussion using names however cases can be discussed provided no true identity is revealed.

Now the majority of us here have handles and so our true names or identities are not revealed unless we decide otherwise and discussions and disagreements are supposed to be kept to a technical level, if not the posts are removed.
If people wish to be rude to one another then that's down to their own personality and not their profession.

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

Pamela--I am also glad to see you back.

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

4
Pamela, the best advice I could give you is this,

Quote:



"Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons.

Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth.

Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here.

And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be.

And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy."

- Max Ehrmann

Maui

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

I don't fundamentally agree with the opening post (at the possible expense of being considered yet another 'cannibal')

with regard to a workplace, people have low patience. even with new people or new trainee's, it's just the nature of the wolf pack. (ie: why can't you run as fast as we can?? *frustration*)

with regard to this forum I identify 2 main factors and a multitude of subfactors at work here:

1) the internet with it's subfactors-
a)you cannot hear, see, touch, or sense a person's emotions on this forum - something that someone posted with a good intent may be viewed as offensive by someone else.
b)anonymity effect may influence some people's posts

2) math. - after you've done enough of it, you solve problems much quicker than the average bear. there are just some bears that have been solving problems for 20 years and do it so quickly they get irate waiting for slower bears to arrive at the same conclusion, both in their daily lives as well as at the workplace.

I view this forum as a weld. first coming to it, you resemble a 6010 weld made by an apprentice welder. jagged and rough, crazy undercut and notch effect everywhere. Over time the surface flaws and discontinuities get ground out. rewelding is probably required as well.

in the end you have a pleasing product both sound in its chemistry as well as its mechanical properties.

getting to that finished state may be rougher for most but in the end, having someone with the guts to tell you that you're wrong outright, rather than leave you to think your mistakes are good is the worse injustice. I guess being able to show some class while pointing out errors is the societal key. But society or not, engineering is either sound or unsound. it's pass or fail. and lives may depend on that call.

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

Quote:

Gifted engineers resent engineers that cannot make calculations or PEs that cannot make calculations.
Not true. The latter are not engineers!poke

I suppose that's the kind of abuse that's getting us down.

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

(OP)
You people are the best! Engineers are a wonderful group of people doing some of the most important work in the world.

It is good to be back, too. You will keep me sharper than I would otherwise be. I truly enjoy the diverse viewpoints.

As to telling the truth, I agree. As to being blunt, I often am particularly as it applies to technical and legal matters. But the sensitivity needs to be weighed against the consequences in forming communications.

Iron sharpens iron. Agreed.

I'm not writing about the technical side of our profession. I am writing about the "softer" side of the profession and how we deal with each other.

As individuals, we can think for ourselves about how to respond before we ever begin to pound on the keyboard. Being truthful is the best way but we can find better ways than tearing down an individual or an entire group of people. My career began with older engineers, who would not allow personal attacks on an individual or a group.

As engineers, we have been given a lot; more than the bulk of society. As I've written before, I believe noblesse oblige is a good policy for us to practice. I am not "high born" but I do have the ability to think about my actions and how they may be perceived by the receiver. Therefore, I should think.

I am far from perfect in working with people. My aim is to improve. In the past, I've given people three warnings about how they were treating me and to cease and desist or they would regret their initial attacks. I am not one to seek confrontation but I am one to end a confrontation another has begun. They are always surprised at my observations and hurt. I regret the whole experience, when interactions reach that point. So, I am trying to find better ways to handle those people. I am uncertain what it looks like yet.

I worked with a career coach for awhile. He called me on my thoughts about others. They were true, which I thought was important. However, when he presented how I appeared and how that appearance revealed disrespect, I thought about it and decided he was correct. I had been a jackass and an arrogant one at that. Now that I'm older I can see what happens and why. Each decade of life has its own flavor and I am not quite so full of myself. Thank God! That really does get old.

I am diligently working to see the best in people. I learned decades ago, through family, that any bad thought I had about them would be displayed towards them. Whatever is in the heart, comes out. I am not strong enough to think poorly of someone and treat them as if they had done nothing hurtful.

I do not avoid discussing what people have done but it needs to happen in a positive, constructive manner. If it cannot be, there is no point in discussion. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I've had a hard life but so has everyone else. I need to consider their journey, too, because it counts. As I've worked on some of my crap over the last two+ years, I can see where others have similar problems. It tempers my emotions and thinking towards them, which I think is good.

And I do try to avoid negativity now. I see no point in it.

That's my mind working.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

Well, if you're talking about the odd pile on that happens here then yeah, it happens a bit too often and a bit too strongly sometimes. I've been trying harder not to participate but probably still do at times. Seems sometimes folks will smell the blood in the water and come in from every direction.

I've seen the opposite though, people sticking up for an OP that strikes me as perhaps arrogant or otherwise flawed.

Then there is also such a thing as being overly sensitive - at least from another's perspective.

Some of it may be cultural, between my education and 1st job in the UK plus probably other experiences I accept a bit of banter, leg pulling, maybe even light hazing... Being teased about my crummy drawings by the older guys checking them was part of the reason I worked hard to improve my drafting. So I'll also do same which may offend some, but there's no ill intent so who needs to change - me giving advice for free or the person asking for free advice (that's worth every penny by the way).

English as a second language can be an issue, in fact even for some folks that appear to have English as a first language their posts can be hard to follow verging on unintelligible.

So yeah, we should be doing unto others as we would have others do unto us, but was also need to suck it up sometimes and get over ourselves.

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RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

If it doesn't kill you... your blood vessels are made with sterner stuff...

My pet peeve, at this instance, is the increased rudeness that modern society seems to have fostered. There used to be a time when public shaming engendered public contrition and people were at least superficially polite. Today, that's not even remotely the case. Now, it may be that the upper class Victorians were every bit as rude privately and in their own minds, but they rarely displayed such behavior in public, since they had to at least maintain their air of gentility.

Beyond our secular engineering universe, the relatively common event on the street when you get cut off by some j.a. and responding by honking your horn is an angry bird in return, as if you had the unmitigated audacity to be insulted by that scofflaw's transgressions. I've seen a soccer mom with a minivan full of young children flip off a driver in passing them because they had the audacity to drive at the speed limit, which was not to the liking of said soccer mom. What lessons do these children learn from such occurrences? It used to be that being caught at being rude would at least cause the perpetrator to hang their head in shame, and offer at least some gesture that signified some sort of apologetic attitude.

I'll stay away from any politics, since that's probably always been rude to some degree...

TTFN
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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
There is a homework forum hosted by engineering.com: http://www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

IRStuff, if you haven't seen the TED talk by Monica Lewinsky, I highly recommend watching it. Politics completely aside, she talks a lot about the internet and the proliferation of permanent shaming that happens because of it. Cannibalism, indeed.

http://www.ted.com/talks/monica_lewinsky_the_price...

Now I don't think this level of shaming happens on here, but it has often amazed me how rude and callous some folks can be when hidden behind a fake moniker. I've had a bad day and made a snarky remark, sure, but I try to keep it civil. You never know who is reading what you put out there.

Please remember: we're not all guys!

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

(OP)
I dislike the rudeness of society today, too. I've broached the topic with younger people and most do not want to hear it.

It's almost like people have bought into being themselves to the point that rudeness is acceptable because they think they're so likable. They may be likable as a person but their behaviors may be unlikable. I can be the same way, too. I've had people call me bratty and I finally saw that it fit. I'm not saying I will not slip into it sometimes but the point was well received.

I no longer engage in political discussions. Those are pointless.

We all know the theory about what you are really surfaces when alone. I also have trouble believing a tyrant with others is not a tyrant with him-/herself.

I realize that some may view me as hypersensitive. That is OK. I do not want chronic stress. smile

I began participating in NSPE-CO last year. I cannot imagine any of those people yelling, screaming, disparaging, etc. each other. If they did, no one would want to be around them including me. They are focused on the profession and moving it forward.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

I think most of what M.L. is talking about is not what I would call classical shaming, which is essentially a peer pressure mechanism to correct relatively egregious acts or crimes. Not unlike forcing someone to wear the scarlet letter. Those were always with the end goal of correcting the bad behavior. Whether it worked is a different matter altogether.

She is talking about just plain old, classical "cattiness," i.e., "she's got thighs the size of trees," or "he's dumber than a flyswatter." Those are just plain insults with no socially acceptable rationale; they're intended to hurt and humiliate. They do it because they can get away with it, and no one is calling them out for what amounts to psychological torture. It just goes to show that the veneer of civilization is only monolayers thick, and that any group of people can justify torture, or worse, in name of whatever the flavor of the day is.

I think it's a cultural disservice to call that "shaming," as it conflates a bad thing with a possibly good thing.

TTFN
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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
There is a homework forum hosted by engineering.com: http://www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

However those comments are not limited to the engineering profession which was were this thread started.

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

(OP)
SLTA, I watched that TED talk recently. I felt compassion for Monica and what she endured. I suspect her humiliation was sufficient without all the other she endured. She was bullied and many should get that.

TheTick, you crack me up. I'm glad you've retained your sense of humor.

KENAT, you are still a good man and I appreciate your thoughts and efforts.

There are a lot of civil discussions here. It is not all out of bounds. But rudeness does exist. I've not read a lot so my experience was framed by just a few threads, which says something.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

Very interesting topic. Sort of the elephant in the room quite often...

I am not sure what I can add to this. I know that I often regret how short I can be with other engineers (or people in general). But, I think that is only a reflection of my inherent impatience.

As far as a specific topic: I am generally disappointed with the battles between the younger and elder engineers. All else aside, each generation has a different set of skills that can be learned from the other. It is the harmony of those skills that makes the big picture complete.

"It is imperative Cunth doesn't get his hands on those codes."

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

Actually one of the rudest things that happens is when you respond to a post and neither the OP or anyone else responds in kind, so in reality you can be rude by doing nothing at all.

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

2
lacajun, good man, meh the jury is out on that one but on a good day I try so thanks.

As to your cannibalism metaphor, it occurs to me that in some species cannibalism is at least in part a way of weeding out the week - e.g. the mother of some species may eat her own young if they are disabled etc.

In a human context that seems extremely harsh, but in a career/profession, maybe not?

In work I learned long ago that colleagues can be categorized by both ease to work with/pleasantness of personality and by competence at the job.

Favorite is obviously a competent colleague who is also easy to get along with.

2nd favorite is a competent colleague who may be hard to get along with or even outright obnoxious. At the end of the day we're here to work not for happy fun time so I'd prefer this person to the next. I will generally learn to work around a competent colleagues eccentricities or outright unpleasantness. Heck, sometimes they may be the grit that takes my edge off as someone above alluded to. I may moan about them occasionally or find them frustrating but if I think about it they're worth the effort.

3rd is an incompetent colleague who is very pleasant. I'm sorry, but if you can't do the job, or learn to do the job in a reasonable time frame with reasonable help from me then you aren't really much use as a colleague. You may make a great friend, but not a great colleague.

Worst is obviously an incompetent a$$hole - cue the MBA comments.

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RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

I think that it would be nice to be able to categorize people that well. As with autism spectrum disorder, competency is a distribution, and often, it's weaknesses in particular subdisciplines that make work interactions difficult. I've got coworkers that are VERY competent in their area of expertise, but, they've chosen to drill down to be the experts, and so are not necessarily competent to deal with higher altitude issues, i.e., the "big picture." I, on the other hand, am a generalist, so I lack the competency for the minute details.

I don't see why either of us is precluded from being being a "real" engineer; in fact, I would argue that "everything" is unnecessary and inefficient, since specialization is necessary for division of labor. Your body is an example of specialization, and there's a post in the joke thread about the various parts of the body. We can't all be leaders, or want to be, and we can't all be Sheldon Coopers, or want to be. Life and civilization would be untenable if everyone were a complete expert in their field.

One odd thing about the emphasis on STEM education is what would happen if EVERYONE decided to be a computer programmer? Who would wait tables, bus and wash dishes? Or, design the hardware for the Internet of Things?

TTFN
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RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

IRstuff, sure there is variation in how competent and how easy to get along people are, and they can vary for the same person in different situations. I'm admittedly painting broad strokes.

However, my system has worked for me so far so I'll stick with it for now.winky smile

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RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

On the other hand, rudeness is sometimes necessary. My example is the person who stops in the parking lot entrance to talk to someone who is leaving. Yea I am going to honk my horn, being rude to interrupt the conversation. As a matter of fact it is just necessary to be rude at times.

As for being rude to other engineers. Someone above made a good point above. Do your homework, and look things up. And yes I sometimes don't look things up, maybe I just don't trust Wickopedia.
But do some basics.

If you are out of your league, just state that (if your a student, I don't want to help). And sometimes the struggle is what you need to learn.

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

It's about efficiency. Sometimes the most efficient way to get your point across is to say "that is a terrible idea for a number of reasons, please consider blah blah blah instead."

Blunt but polite is usually my style. Some people like it, some don't, but the information is exchanged either way and they can decide if they like me later.

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

2
People may not remember what you said, but they will certainly remember how you make them feel. And engineers seem to be oblivious to this for the most part. Being insensitive and instilling feelings of hostility or anger in others when trying to make your point can come back to haunt you. Ask anyone who's ever been married.

Maui

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

(OP)
There is a lot of variation in ability and that is obvious getting through engineering school. A spectrum of people graduate, which is good, I think. I learned from those deemed by most to be "not too intelligent." They asked insightful questions that never entered my brain.

I run into people almost daily that never return communication and that is rude. I've had people request information from me and never respond after they receive it. That is quite rude. You cannot account for the manners others are taught or otherwise acquire. Since no response seems to be an accepted response today, sometimes I do not respond.

I use blunt but nice, when needed. I've helped some people admit that they were waiting for an opportunity to bully me using blunt but nice. They didn't recognize what their actions were or the motivations behind them. I did and provided assistance in getting it all out on the table. That individual was informed that is unacceptable and whatever is driving it needs to be dealt with. We all have trouble admitting we can be bad to others. But we can. Nothing happens that isn't common to man. That leads me to consider their journey and, if I'm having a decent day, to cut them slack. We all need slack throughout life. As smart as engineers are, we do make mistakes. On a forum, we have the ability to walk away, cool off, think, and respond. I wish we could do that more often.

Sometimes what we think is expedient isn't because the damage caused is not immediately visible.

STEM is another topic on my mind. I've been asked to speak to young girls about pursuing a technical field. It seems wise to let young people think about their own passions, dreams, plans, desires, etc. and pursue those.



Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

(OP)
Maui, so very true.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

There's been big pushes for upping programming skills, particularly for women. http://hourofcode.com/us is one massive push to get children to start programming at early ages. It'll be interesting to see what comes of that, and whether it will drive down salaries.

TTFN
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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
There is a homework forum hosted by engineering.com: http://www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

Maui - very good statement. I think there is some credible social science to back that claim.

I often find that how I am perceived trumps what I say. That has some good and bad to it.

"It is imperative Cunth doesn't get his hands on those codes."

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

(OP)
IRStuff, STEM has been pushed for a few years now. Female enrollment has dropped alarming some. I've been asked to speak to young girls about engineering. The sponsors lose interest, when I state they also need to be told the truth about long hours, sometimes heavy travel, deadlines driven by profit motive, politics both good and bad, etc. They want engineering glamorized into something I do not believe it is. It is not a TV show but real life with real life consequences on large, impersonal and small, personal scales. I also believe engineering is a great and wonderful profession, which the bulk of the world is clueless about. It is one reason I would like to see us pull together to promote the profession and improve things for it across the world for generations to come. I may be idealistic but that's my mind.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

You mean engineering is not everything they said it was? I know a little sarcastic, but we were all told how good things were as an engineer. But they almost never talk about the bad part of any employment choices.
Being Honest is the better choice. I think it more respectful.

Do you ever hear how great it is to work for minimum wage?

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

I dunno; my engineering career has been GREAT! I love what I do, and I get paid way more than minimum wage to do it. What's not to love?

TTFN
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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
There is a homework forum hosted by engineering.com: http://www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

That is the attitude, IRstuff!

"It is imperative Cunth doesn't get his hands on those codes."

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

I love what I do and engineering is a perfect fit for my skills, interests and aptitudes.

However, I do not sell it like soap to kids as the perfect professional choice for anybody halfway interested in math or science. I do not confuse my own success, entering the profession over 25 years ago in a completely different set of economic and trade/societal conditions, with the prospects for CURRENT graduates from engineering programs. Doing so is irresponsible.

It isn't for everyone, that's for sure!

I do think it's very important that both girls AND boys be advised to keep their options open by keeping up their math and science courses through to the end of high school. If they shut off that part of their education too soon, many doors close to them- not just engineering.

Note that the rest of this is based on labour market data for Ontario, Canada, and for Canada in general. Your own mileage may vary. And to those who think this is off topic, which I do not think that it is, I apologize in advance.

An engineering degree here offers a chance- not a particularly good chance- to get a job as an engineer after graduating with a Bachelor's. Right now, looking at the industry salary surveys, that's a job which pays a little better than being a teacher here in Ontario at the outset, and exactly the SAME as being a (unionized school board) teacher after about 10 years of experience- without the need to spend an additional year (eventually that will be two years) in teacher's college. It is also seen as a good, or at least adequate, prequalification for a bunch of entry-level and otherwise undifferentiated "business" jobs. Teachers too are in oversupply, but twice as many teaching grads work as teachers as engineering grads here work in engineering. And engineering grads are almost exactly as likely as the AVERAGE graduate of all university programs, to be employed in ANY JOB either six months or two years from graduation. Graduates of any medical program- ANY medical program, not just doctors- are several times more likely to be employed after graduation than are engineering grads.

When asked about engineering as a career choice, I never fail to mention that less than half of engineering graduates actually get work as engineers when they graduate at present, and in steady state terms, less than 30% of engineering graduates work as engineers. I also mention that most of them did not leave the profession by choice- they failed to gain access to the profession because there were too few entry-level opportunities for the number of graduates we're currently pumping out. That has been the case for at least a decade, and it has been getting steadily worse. I always mention this is the current situation and it of course may change in future- but when only 30% of the graduates work as engineers, it would have a LONG way to go and would require major changes before it's ever a profession with reasonable demand for its own graduates.

The people who should pursue engineering are smart enough to figure that out. They're merely seeking a piece of paper that legitimizes, in the eyes of others, what they've probably already been doing for most of their lives. Read the Hobbies forum for some insight into that! The right people don't need to be sold on it, and overselling it isn't helpful.

Engineers, and especially their associations, licensure bodies and learned societies, need to get it through their collective thick skulls that there is a HUGE difference between promoting the (undeniable) value of the engineering profession to society, from its prospects as a career choice for graduates.

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

@lacajun - after living in Lafayette for 7-8 years, I will have to say that you will not experience the same graciousness from the rest of the world/country that you get day-to-day wherever Ms "lacajun" resides! Even if it's in Baton Rouge (I didn't particularly care for the year I worked in BR as much as Lafayette) but I do agree that communication is morphing in the digital age. Or maybe, being in my early 30s, I'm simply encountering a newer/higher level of business conversation that's more 'hustle and bustle' and less pleasant.

I do appreciate your condemnation of "no response [is an] accepted response" because I'm very guilty of that. To me, I feel people are more 'sensitive' to "over communication" so I try not to clutter their inbox with my name, and make my actual responses more valuable in their scarcity "Oh, JNieman sent me something, it must need attention" as opposed to "oh.. another one from JNieman, I'll see what it is later" but I admit I have not considered the likelihood that I come off as rude because of that. And you're right. Ignoring someone's communication to me (especially if it was requested by me) is rude. A simple "thank you" "That's exactly what I wanted, thanks" "I appreciate that!" can go a long way without wasting much time.

@Maui -
"People may not remember what you said, but they will certainly remember how you make them feel."
Very poignant. I like how you stated that. I am one who has a big problem remembering the exact words someone says but I have a great memory/sense for "the gist of their intent/idea/motivation/feelings" so I should assume that others have a similar mindset at times and be careful how I tailor my communication.

Thanks for the 'soft skills' tips, all.

I always go back-and-forth in my head on whether or not I should "waste" time by sandwiching my communication in pleasantries. Will coworkers/colleagues/clients/customers feel like I'm wasting their time, being condescending, or patronizing them? I very much dislike it when people come into my office and immediately start off with "I know you're busy but..." "I'm sorry to interrupt, I know you're just like me and have a lot on your plate.." "Hey, I know this is a weird request, it's not in our normal process, but do you have a minute to.." they are time wasters and it immediately puts me in the mindset of "Ok you're just wasting my time because I know you're interrupting me, I know this isn't our process, everyone is busy so I don't need the reminder" and I have to find the negative attitude before I get started. I just want to know what the problem is so we can immediately put our heads together and solve it. I don't need apologies. But I understand some are ... less robotic... than I am. I think that in treating people the way /I/ like to be treated (the golden rule sometimes isn't so golden) that I sometimes leave people feeling hurt or attacked unintentionally. What's the other one? The "platinum rule" some business bulls***er once told me? "Treat people the way THEY want to be treated." He makes a living by BS'ing engineers and business leaders with intangible personality crap, so I disdain him, but there is a lot of valuable lessons among the horde of fluff he presents.

Anyways, to make a long post short (too late) or add the "tl;dr":

I don't think this site is too bad about the vitriol. Possibly I'm used to much harsher environments. Possibly I'm used to a more cutthroat development process where people are acclimated to having their ideas going into a 'shredding machine' at a round table and having to immediately spitball better ideas. However, I think eng-tips is very... professional. Compared to most other professional online sources, I find this place to be the most accommodating and least judgmental of posters. Sometimes you can tell when someone is insinuating that the OP or person-they-are-responding-to is "inferior" in some perceived way, but it is usually wrapped in "business appropriate" language, better or worse.

It's possible we don't frequent the more cannibalistic areas of this site though. I try to stay out of the more "off topic" and "political hot topics" on this site. I ventured in to some of the 'climate change' threads before and it was as if this place was just another Facebook discussion rather than a round-table of professionals, at times. So I don't go there. I get that level of discussion elsewhere.

_________________________________________
NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

(OP)
I love what I have done. Engineering is a great profession. But like everything else, there are aspects of it that some may not want to live with through a lifetime. I know some that flipped between professions and finally learned, after years of doing their last decision, they would have been happier and probably more prosperous doing a trade. Tell the truth and let the individual decide.

I know some that thought of nursing until they learned they'd have someone else's vomit on them.

JNieman, my family has very long roots in Louisiana. I lived there most of my life. I don't know how things are there now but that was the best state I worked in as an engineer. Being pleasant and good to people never hurts. Getting the job done is important. Learning is important. Having good people skills and exercising those are equally important; some would argue more important than the technical stuff. I learned too late in my career how important exercising those people skills is. One criticism a manager told me, after I left that company, is that I never gave anyone in management an opportunity to get to know me, which hampered my career. They viewed me as very competent but aloof, too aloof, and that led to no opportunities for them to know me as a human being. I suspect that led to too little trust.

Business is business. Ultimately, I file my business licenses. If I don't do it, there is no business. People are always behind business. You'll find your way and a good balance. You're thinking and quite capable to strike the balance you need.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

lacajun,

Thanks for starting the thread. It hits home and resonates with me.

The person who taught me the most about this very sort of thing is my wife, who is not an Engineer, not a Technologist, not a Designer / Draftsperson, and, oddly enough, not an MBA.

Her philosophy is that we all have interactions every day with other people. We should always strive to make the other person feel better after the interaction than they did before.

I know that there will be the sharks in the water who will close in and attack that statement under the guise of claims regarding unspecified context - those sharks, should they appear, well...welcome. "Have a nice day." (as Happy Bunny would say - Google for context). In any case, I strive to live by this, although at times it's not my first choice in behaviors.

Thanks, Maui, for saying this in different words.

KENAT,

"Worst is obviously an incompetent a$$hole - cue the MBA comments."

I almost bit on this. Commendable effort! I chose to give you a star instead.

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

I can be prickly, but I try not to be pointlessly cruel. I don't hurt people just for fun. (I'd be lying if I said it was never actually fun, though.)

Do I intentionally try to hurt people? Well... sometimes... but not without reason. I think it comes down to the feeling that if I believe a person shouldn't feel good about what he's done or said, I'll deliver a well-deserved b!+ch-slap.

Quote (Proverbs 27:6)

Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy.

RE: Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism

(OP)
I try to leave most people with a positive interaction but I don't always succeed either. We're all human and that is to be accounted for. However, when the same people are going at each other and others, a line of absurd rudeness has been crossed, which leaves a bad impression on me. I am pretty ordinary so I suspect those caustic posts leave a bad impression on others, too.

I can only take so much negativity. I know people that focus on what they don't like about others and many of aspects of life. That sucks the life force out of everyone. I want to focus on what I do like about others and all of life. It is easier on thee and those around thee. smile

I agree with that Proverbs and have used it throughout my life. But I try not to tear them down in the process. I am blunt but try not to be destructive by attacking their personage. The man who wanted to bully me is a prime example. I did not attack his personage, which is easily attacked; however, I did let him know that behavior is unacceptable and why. I do not believe he understood his behavior to be that of a bully. I have more recent examples of bullying in which I think the parties do not understand their behaviors to be bullying. It's part of their personal dynamics probably stemming from their family dynamics.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

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