Questionable Calculations
Questionable Calculations
(OP)
I have a situation where I’m monitoring a project as an owner’s rep. We have encountered a situation where the owner is requesting structural calculations to ensure an installation is acceptable. In doing this it has come to light in writing that the designers on this project took another project’s design documents and did not evaluate the original design. Along with that comment in writing when I reviewed the calculations produced I am seeing glaring errors in the calculations. I am asking about roof diaphragm blocking and the designer calculated the uplift forces on a truss and compared that reaction to the shear diaphragm capacity of plywood out of the code. They did not reduce the value from the table as required either. So I am seeing clear deficiencies in the small amount of calculations provided. I’m a licensed Structural Engineer in the state I’m working in. Knowing the Structural Engineering Statues in the state and knowing it is illegal to not evaluate a design you stamped for and seeing the glaring issues with fairly simple calculations…..
Do I have an obligation to report this to the state board as a complaint?
Can a complaint be made anonymously and are they reviewed in the same manor?
Do I have an obligation to report this to the state board as a complaint?
Can a complaint be made anonymously and are they reviewed in the same manor?






RE: Questionable Calculations
There may be mitigating circumstances. Don't drag the guys name through the mud unless you've given them a chance to make things right themselves.
One thing I have learned is that if you are going to lay into someone, you better be damn sure that you are right.
When I am working on a problem, I never think about beauty but when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong.
-R. Buckminster Fuller
RE: Questionable Calculations
RE: Questionable Calculations
RE: Questionable Calculations
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Questionable Calculations
However, if the EOR doesn't provide an adequate response; then you have an obligation to file a report.
If we as engineers do not adequately police ourselves, then the politicians will.
Mike Lambert
RE: Questionable Calculations
RE: Questionable Calculations
What they have done may not be what you would have done. But you must look at what they could do before saying it does not work.
Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.
RE: Questionable Calculations
RE: Questionable Calculations
RE: Questionable Calculations
If this the nailing of the wall plate to the floor diaphragm, did the shear wall sheathing continue to the top of either the sill plate or wall double top plate below? If this is the case, then the 16d would have only to transfer the story shear, not the total shear.
Just a thought.
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Questionable Calculations
RE: Questionable Calculations
Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.
RE: Questionable Calculations
Regarding your...".. capacity of 46 pounds per foot. The required shear load is at least 300 pounds per foot..."
What did they say?
a) "Yea, so what, we don't care."
b) "We disagree and here is why."
c) "omg, Thanks for catching that! We will rectify immediately!"
d) you haven't talked to them.
Regarding your... " Knowing the Structural Engineering Statues in the state and knowing it is illegal to .... " then you also where to find the answers to your a) "Do I have an obligation to report this to the state board as a complaint?" and b) "Can a complaint be made anonymously and are they reviewed in the same manor?"
Just curious as to what lies behind your wish for Anonymity, GreatOne ?
RE: Questionable Calculations
RE: Questionable Calculations
I don't want to report anyone anytime. But my concern is that I'm aware of a situation that appears to be a problem. I'm looking for some advice on how to proceed. I don't have a clear way to simply communicate with the engineer. I understand that would be the best and I believe the owner has asked the question and it is going back to the engineer. If and when it gets ignored I'm trying to figure out what I'm obligated to do and what I can do and what others would do.
RE: Questionable Calculations
No kickers at wall double top plate to roof?
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Questionable Calculations
RE: Questionable Calculations
If the engineer doesn't, then your status on the project doesn't matter at all; file a complaint with the board. Document all your attempts to get this issue fixed, and do the right thing.
Please remember: we're not all guys!
RE: Questionable Calculations
Your concern appears warranted. By your sketch your primary concern is also easily fixed in 1 hour by a guy with a nail gun.
RE: Questionable Calculations
Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.
RE: Questionable Calculations
And yes the corrective action is a couple dozen Simpson A35 angle clips and an afternoon. I just have what appears to be a situation where the cm who highered the designer is pushing the designer to approve the installations as done by the contractor.
RE: Questionable Calculations
So, yes, if you feel this person has no business performing this design then you should notify your board.
That said, I agree 100% with the general sentiment here that this should be discussed informally with the other engineer prior to escalating this. I've seen both sides of this situation and nobody wins.
And, as far as I know, you can report to your state board anonymously but will probably be required to provide supporting statements and respond to comments by the engineer you're bringing the complaint against.
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer.
(Just passed the 16-hour SE exam, woohoo!)
RE: Questionable Calculations
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Questionable Calculations
If you decide to make a complaint to the professional association, you will be the complainant and you may be required to attend and give evidence at a hearing of the Discipline Panel to decide whether or not disciplinary action is appropriate.
BA
RE: Questionable Calculations
RE: Questionable Calculations
It's a flat 2X member laid across top of the truss bottom chords of the trusses near panel points to hold them at the desired spacing. They also give some lateral stability to the truss bottom chord if connected to the end walls.
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Questionable Calculations
In my state, the respondent is not even aware a complaint has been filed until an investigation is complete and a decision has been made to prosecute. Even then, the name of the person filing the complaint is never reveled to the respondent but they will probably be able to figure it out anyway. Other states will be different. Feel free to call the board and discuss the complaint process.
Engineers need to protect the public and the profession by weeding out incompetency. This will never happen as long as we stand back and let things like this continue because we are afraid of offending someone. I know the engineering / construction business can be a close knit group and flushing out the weak and incapable may not be popular but it is the moral and ethical thing to do.
RE: Questionable Calculations
That should get it going...
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Questionable Calculations
It has been my observation through my interactions with the design group that they are not equipped to do structural design on buildings. When we first asked about diaphragm blocking requirements they repeatedly informed us that the truss manufacturer would have been the one to require or not require blocking in the diaphragm. The lateral analysis and diaphragm forces are clearly the responsibility of the EOR and have little to nothing to do with the truss manufacturer. We have previously requested structural calculations and the EOR will not produce the calcs, so the contractor has on multiple occasions highered their own Structural Engineer to produce and provide structural design for the errors made in the construction of the project. We can't even get the EOR to send a letter stating they agree with the contractor's structural engineer. We had a situation where it was determined that the foundation walls were placed out of the plumb. The design grouped used the head architect to respond via RFI that the foundation walls were out of plumb, but not enough to be a problem without producing an amount they were out of plumb or an amount that was acceptable. The architect should not be making that statement when a structural engineer stamped the drawings. It would be my guess the engineers I have participating in the project are PE engineers with civil backgrounds and are not qualified to do structural design of buildings. There has been many indications throughout the project that the design group is not acting in a professional manner. When I received in writing that the design group took some other projects design from another design group and said they did not verify the design I truly began to understand the underlying problem with the project and why we continued to run into problem after problem. The owner would find error in the installation the CM would say everything is fine and sometimes produce random e-mails or half answers from a variety of sources to tell the owner it is acceptable. The lack of original design and resistance to produce revised design is the underlying issue. We are all assuming when a change is request via submittal or RFI that the EOR is checking it and we are learning that this never happened and the more we check the more problems and questions arise.
RE: Questionable Calculations
BA
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BA
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As you are on a state board what do you think about the below thread?
thread765-368896: Arizona State Board for Engineers not doing their job.
Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.
RE: Questionable Calculations
Msquared48 I generally agree with you. Engineers are expected to adhere to the generally accepted standard of practice. I don't like to make blanket statements but no plans are perfect and small errors in calculations or details are not reasons to file a complaint. As Greatone76 noted in his 4:09 response, there appears to be a competency issue much larger than just a couple bad details. From what he has described, it sounds like the engineers in question are practicing outside their area of expertise.
RE: Questionable Calculations
It is simple, in Arizona "ALL referenced codes have to be part of the public records" for the public to be able to review. As only the IBC is in the public record only the IBC is the building code for the Building Official to interpret. All reference engineering standards in the IBC are under the State board rules, not the city.
I am sure that the state you are in have the same requirements. If you will tell me the state you are in I will look up the laws, that you apparently won"t do yourself, to give you. Why you are on a licensing board without looking up the laws for your state concerning the engineering laws is beyond me.
Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.