Remove scale?
Remove scale?
(OP)
I have been looking into updating our drawing templates.
I was thinking about the Scale block, and scale listed under views.
What do you think about not using scale anymore?
There isn't really any use for it anymore. Drawings are never printed full size, and they are saved as PDF's.
Who cares what the scale is anymore? After printing, the drawings are not to scale.
Thoughts?
I was thinking about the Scale block, and scale listed under views.
What do you think about not using scale anymore?
There isn't really any use for it anymore. Drawings are never printed full size, and they are saved as PDF's.
Who cares what the scale is anymore? After printing, the drawings are not to scale.
Thoughts?
Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion





RE: Remove scale?
I don't know that there is an unambiguous, clear, and logical method to convey relation between views without declaring the first view to be at a certain physical scale. Otherwise what units is the scale in? "This view is 4x size of the base view" is a lot more words than "4x" and if your "4x" isn't indicative of the 'mutually understood' full-scale (1 paper [unit] = 1 part [unit]) (or whatever unit that's declared) then you have to explain it, and that is not something that should have to be explained.
Sure it's not going to be used to actually scale from practically speaking, but it gives context from which all subsequent labels are understood.
_________________________________________
NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5
RE: Remove scale?
"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."
-Dalai Lama XIV
RE: Remove scale?
So having a scale stated, and then being able to scale off given dimensions is occasionally handy. Our old template in the UK actually had a graticle on it which allowed you scale if ever required.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Remove scale?
Our inspectors have requested scale drawings from us. A plate with a lot of holes in it can be inspected very quickly for gross errors by sitting it on a scale drawing.
A lot of that "DO NOT SCALE DRAWINGS" stuff comes from the old drafting board days when we did not always have time to redraw things to reflect dimension changes. 3D CAD makes it easier (and necessary) to model and draw to scale.
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JHG
RE: Remove scale?
"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."
-Dalai Lama XIV
RE: Remove scale?
I guess it all winds down to deliverables: if your customer wants to see scale and/or print your dwgs to certain paper sizes, what choices do you have?
"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future
RE: Remove scale?
These days, who does that? Sure, there are a few companies that plot full size and use them as a template, but that is the minority.
Scaling is a "left-over" from old school.
If you scale up a detail from another view, it's obvious that it is scaled. Do we really care that a view is 2/1 and the derived detail is 20/1?
If there are dimension involved, we can see by the dimensions the size of the part.
I also have not seen a standard that mentions that the scale is needed or optional.
Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Remove scale?
"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future
RE: Remove scale?
I try very hard to make all my fabrication drawings 1:1. I can do this because the stuff I design is of an appropriate size. I have my old drafting scales here, so even if the prints are not 1:1, I can scale off them.
You can still buy those metric drafting scale that go 1:1, 1:2, 1:5, 1:10, 1:20, and 1:50. This is the ideal gift for all those engineers who cannot multiply or divide by ten.
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JHG
RE: Remove scale?
RE: Remove scale?
ASME Y14.100-2004
"4.23 Scale
Scale expresses the ratio of the object size as drawn
to its full size. Drawings shall be drawn to a scale that
depicts all details of the item clearly and accurately,
except as noted in para. 4.23.3.
4.23.1 Selection of Scale. Drawings should show an
object or assembly to full scale. When full scale is not
practicable, drawings may be prepared to reduced or
enlarged scale. It is desirable, whenever practicable, that
detail drawings be prepared to the same scale as pertinent
assembly drawings.
4.23.2 Indication of Scale. The scale, or scales, to
which drawings are prepared shall be indicated on the
drawing. The scale to which the majority of views and
sections are drawn shall be entered after “SCALE” in
the space provided on the drawing. For multisheet
drawings, the predominant scale used for each sheet
shall be entered after “SCALE” in the space provided
on that sheet. The options for depicting scale, fraction,
ratio, or decimal are indicated as examples below. The
scale of each view or section drawn to other than the
predominate scale shall be entered directly below the
title of the view or section. For example:
SECTION A-A
SCALE 1/2
SECTION A-A
SCALE 1:2
SECTION A-A
SCALE .5
4.23.3 Drawings Not to Scale. In the case of diagrams,
pictorials, cable assemblies, and tabulated and other
drawings not prepared to any scale, the word “NONE”
shall be entered after “SCALE” in the space provided
on the drawing format. Drawings consisting predominantly
of textual content need not have an entry in the
scale block."
I feel with digital data that this may be eventually revised.
Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Remove scale?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Remove scale?
But, my argument is do we really care?
I have done CNC machining, inspection, etc. Scale of details and views are not looked at and nobody seems to really care.
It's more of a visual clue for the reader to know how big a detail is to another view. So, why do we care? It's obvious there is a difference.
I'm not saying it's wrong showing a scale, I'm only saying with digital media these days the scale isn't relevant anymore.
Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Remove scale?
The actual scale is no longer as important as it was in the past, but the knowledge of the size relationship between views does aid in easier drawing interpretation.
"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."
-Dalai Lama XIV
RE: Remove scale?
Since the spec indicates there should be a scale on the views, it allows NONE for the sheet.
I'm going to change the template to show "NONE" as the default and go from there.
I have asked a couple vendors, customers, and machinists' about this, they don't seem to care either way. Scale is not important to them.
Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Remove scale?
"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."
-Dalai Lama XIV
RE: Remove scale?
You did mean graticule, yes? Learned a new word today. Thanks.
RE: Remove scale?
I still have all of my scales too.
KENAT,
Also a new word for me.
ewh,
Having the scale smaller or larger doesn't really mean anything to many, as long as the detail makes sense.
It would be interesting to have a poll/test to see who notices scale throughout a drawing. They would notice that there is something different, but not exactly what the scale is, nor would they care.
Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Remove scale?
RE: Remove scale?
A plotter is at any size, usually to scale.
We have two high-end plotters here, they are rarely used.
Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Remove scale?
_________________________________________
NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5
RE: Remove scale?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Remove scale?
----------------------------------------
The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
RE: Remove scale?
and will be of value to the users when approximating dimensions.
RE: Remove scale?
However, so long as you have a stated dimension in both X & Y you should be able to scale from that if need be - bad practice though it generally is.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Remove scale?
I never look at scales, other than typing/inserting them onto the drawing. A printed reduced drawing or PDF file is not viewed to scale.
I did a check. I made a drawing with an odd scale to see who notices. It was .62/1.
Nobody noticed from checker, thru approval, machining, vendor, inspection, assembly.
Most said they never looked at, some said they noticed it was odd ... but moved on without question.
The people that noticed were experienced that were used to using scales on drawings.
The others are newer and not trained in fully understanding how to read drawings (which seems the norm these days).
So, if I add a scale, it seems in most cases nobody really cares.
If I teach somebody about scales and proper usage, it's forgotten the next day and they still don't care.
Only the dimensions on the drawing are what are important.
Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Remove scale?
I always thought twice about making too big of a deal out of it though, as it seemed the preferred scales were no longer explicitly invoked by ASME or something.
Here is an old thread on related topic.
thread1103-199705: standard drawing scales
thread1103-160902: Drawing Scale
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Remove scale?
Thanks. I found those two threads before this post also.
As previous checker, I also used to check the scale.
I still do if the scale is noted, and will mark them if incorrect. I will not remove them if someone adds them.
I'm thinking of going forward. My drawing since last week I have been noting the drawing scale as "NONE".
The details and views still indicate scale because of the spec.
I think for future use this is no longer needed.
Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Remove scale?
I stick with scales that are powers of 2: ...1/16,1/8,1/4,1/2,1,2,4,8,16...
This avoids any scales with repeating decimals like 1/6,1/3.
Does anyone else subscribe to the "power of two" rule for scales?
Tunalover
RE: Remove scale?
_________________________________________
NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5
RE: Remove scale?
"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."
-Dalai Lama XIV
RE: Remove scale?
----------------------------------------
The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
RE: Remove scale?
I also have always used the same scaling.
ewh,
I have to continue to follow ASME Y14.100-2004. The scale will stay in the views/details, but the drawing scale will indicate NONE.
dgallup,
We have the same issue. We bought a couple companies (also with 'AutoMAD'), and they have odd scaling. None of their drawings seem to follow any standard.
Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Remove scale?
For part drawings, I'd just keep the scale label used in the CAD program; but it sounds like you have already made your decision.
RE: Remove scale?
<"this is a pictorial diagram and does not reflect the relative size of the final output">
That's what the dimensions are for. If a part is machined based on the scale, there is a problem.
Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Remove scale?
RE: Remove scale?
"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."
-Dalai Lama XIV
RE: Remove scale?
If I truly want a 1:1 drawing, I apply a measuring grid. Now, I can scale the grid and verify correct plotting.
It is very easy and convenient in SolidWorks to fit the plot to the drawing, rather than systematically plot 1:1. I am sure all the other CAD packages are like that too.
--
JHG
RE: Remove scale?
I'm not sure parallax is the correct term, but I like that you take into account that unrolling paper might impact its length. Of course that's when measured in accordance with ASME B89.6.2:1973 (R2012)?
RE: Remove scale?
That, and the velum swelling overnight when it's taped to the board made me realize why exact dimensions weren't to be had from drum-copied prints, and the DO NOT SCALE DRAWING statement started making more sense.
Ink on mylar - that's a different animal.
"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."
-Dalai Lama XIV
RE: Remove scale?
Sent a print out for what they called a wash-off at the time. By the time I discovered it was out of scale, I had put half a day trying to figure out why I couldn't get two of the views to project correctly.
RE: Remove scale?
AutoCAD drawing is sent to fabricator.
Fabricator is having hard time printing.
Instead of changing print settings, they decide to scale drawing (together with dimensions).
Fabricator ships piece 2X the required size.
Instead of "DO NOT SCALE" drawing should say "DO NOT PRINT".
(True story)
"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future
RE: Remove scale?
Back in my AutoCAD days, I drew everything 1:1. If you want to print at some other scale, you can mess with the scales at which the dimensions, notes and titleblocks are printed. I wrote AutoLisp scripts to make this easy.
CAD should be drawn/modeled at 1:1 scale, only.
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JHG
RE: Remove scale?
I agree!
Someone making a part based on the scale, and not the dimensions, should not be making parts.
Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Remove scale?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Remove scale?
"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future
RE: Remove scale?
This makes me wonder if there isn't a simple elegant fix, such as adding a snippet of geometry that would stand out to someone trying to work with the file. A scale geometry, if you will, consisting of 2 lines, one of 1mm, the other of 25.4mm.
If the lines came in at 25.4 and 645.16, or the reverse of 0.3937mm and 1mm, it might raise a flag.
RE: Remove scale?
_________________________________________
NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5
RE: Remove scale?
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The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
RE: Remove scale?
Can you type in fractions when you scale stuff? It has been a while since I have used AutoCAD. Definitely, I can do this in LibreCAD, which is way less capable.
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JHG
RE: Remove scale?
----------------------------------------
The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
RE: Remove scale?
BTW, I have always been taught that scales with a colon (7:1) are for metric dwgs.
Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Remove scale?
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The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
RE: Remove scale?
I do not know how common drafting scales are. I still find mine useful, as long as I select appropriate drawing scales. I do like to hang E sized drawings (A0 approx) on my walls.
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JHG
RE: Remove scale?
This brings me back to my original post, what's the point of having scale, especially if it's a scale that can't be 'easily' measured?
Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Remove scale?
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The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
RE: Remove scale?
A while back I worked for Boeing CAG on the 757-300 program doing structures design work. The legacy structure drawings were all done on paper or mylar, but the -300 design was being done with CAD. Boeing developed a CAD software tool that would take a scanned image of a sheet metal master template and allow you to convert it to a solid model of the formed sheet metal part simply by selecting and defining the scanned geometry. It was pretty impressive, and the resulting solid models were amazingly accurate.
RE: Remove scale?
English ddrawings should be scaled in even units: 1:1, 1:2, 1:4, 1:8, 1:16, etc.
Metric drawings should be scaled in 10ths: 1:1, 1:2, 1:5, 1:10, 1:20, etc.
I even put that in the company CAD standrads at one time, but the designers still violated it. The Pro/E designers were worse than the Unigraphics designers, though.
"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."
Ben Loosli
RE: Remove scale?
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The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
RE: Remove scale?
English units should be: 1/1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, etc.
Metric drawings should be: 1:1, 1:2, 1:5, 1:10, 1:20, etc.
Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Remove scale?
Given that Y14.38 generally removed use of "/" from abbreviations I lean toward using ":" but either is acceptable to at least the version of Y14.100 stated.
It doesn't state anything about differentiating metric from customary that I see.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Remove scale?
What I am having difficulty locating though is where in the standards the actual scales mentioned are specified. I know I've seen them somewhere (though I remember 1/10 instead of 1/8). Genium, perhaps? The Global Drawing Requirements Manual does not list 1/8, but does list 1/10 (as non-preferred).
"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."
-Dalai Lama XIV
RE: Remove scale?
thread1103-199705: standard drawing scales:
thread1103-160902: Drawing Scale:
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Remove scale?
It seems that actual scales are not specified in ASME.
"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."
-Dalai Lama XIV
RE: Remove scale?
I try to confine myself to scales that are on my drafting scales. My English scale is 1:1, 1:2, 1:3, 1:4, 1:5 and 1:6. I have a metric scale that goes 1:100, 1:200, 1:250, 1:L300, 1:400 and 1:500. I have another metric scale that goes 1:100, 1:125, 1:75, 1:20, 1:25 and 1:50. I do not always succeed in confining myself to this. 1:8 scale is useful sometimes.
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JHG
RE: Remove scale?
I have seen this on a spec somewhere once, but can't find where.
This is the only site so far I found...
Link
Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Remove scale?
I'm certainly not claiming the differentiation may not be common practice and may have been in some old standard. However, as far as I can tell it's not in the version of y14.100 that I have.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Remove scale?
I agree it's not Y14.100, but it was what I could find for now.
Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Remove scale?
"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future
RE: Remove scale?
RE: Remove scale?
"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future
RE: Remove scale?
Thanks for the link. We don't use that standard, but I will make note of it for future use.
Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Remove scale?
RE: Remove scale?
...Boeing developed a CAD software tool that would take a scanned image of a sheet metal master template...
The company I work for now would benefit from that. Currently they receive mylar drawings from "another" OEM, scan them, and then trace the lines in AutoCAD to generate the part profile! I have tried to suggest alternatives, but I'm only an engineer, what do I know?
Up until a few years ago, I worked in an office that had a 36" wide colour plotter. I had a lot of fun with it. That included printing everything full scale. And calibrating the feed drive to get the length-wise error down to 0.05" every 12 feet.
We also had a working blueprinter. The boss was old-fasioned, so it was point of policy to send blueprints to customers when the drawings were done.
I stopped religiously scaling my drawing views when I started using Inventor. In AutoCAD I'm still picky about it; some habits die hard. I now work in an office with 3 different generations of engineers. Consequently, there are very different ideas about how a drawing should be layed out and scaled. A recent paroxysm of template and title block renewal resulted in no less than 5 "standard" dimension styles, 6 text styles, and borders drawn 22x32 in drawing units, when everyone knows that the final prints will always be on 11x17 paper. In both AutoCAD and Inventor, it was a disaster. Fortunately, it has been fixed. From now on, our ACAD and INV title blocks all say "SCALE NONE".
STF
RE: Remove scale?
The program at BCAG was the 757-300. All the legacy structures drawings were done on paper/mylar, and Boeing wanted the -300 design done with CATIA V4. The sheet metal CAD tool worked amazingly well. But it still required a bit of manual tune-up to get the models to the level of accuracy that Boeing engineering required for their digital models. I also had to place each piece of geometry ( trim lines, bend lines, mold lines, tooling holes, pilot holes, etc.) on specific layers with specific identifications/names. There was an automated checking function that each model and drawing had to pass before being released. With some models/drawings that had lots of features it took quite a few tries to get the CAD files to pass the checking application.
This was almost 20 years ago, and I'm sure there are now way better CAD applications for doing this kind of work.