Defining a "Professional"
Defining a "Professional"
(OP)
We engineers, including doctors, accountants, teachers, and like, are considered professionals by virtue of our a) educational attainment which requires a body of knowledge obtained from years of study, b) have the work scope of analyzing and making reasoned judgment based on the application of these body of knowledge, c) follow professional ethics in the execution of our work, c) work with dignity, specialized knowledge not easily understood by other profession and (d) technically autonomous.
I have encountered lately some Trades folks, specifically electrical site foremen who are experienced and licensed electricians who are trying to get public clamour that they too should be considered as "professionals" and made themselves with the justification there are also titles like "professional" drivers whose licenses are "regulated". I have exhausted explaining the "professional" definition but it seems they use the term "professional drivers" as reference.
I am not that stupid to fall for it but I was wondering if someone in this forum have a better way of explaining it.
I am not supposed to take this seriously until these group of folks are already going to the level of clamoring such call to the professional regulating body in our country, as we are insisting that they should be regulated by the agency handling "trades" instead.
I have encountered lately some Trades folks, specifically electrical site foremen who are experienced and licensed electricians who are trying to get public clamour that they too should be considered as "professionals" and made themselves with the justification there are also titles like "professional" drivers whose licenses are "regulated". I have exhausted explaining the "professional" definition but it seems they use the term "professional drivers" as reference.
I am not that stupid to fall for it but I was wondering if someone in this forum have a better way of explaining it.
I am not supposed to take this seriously until these group of folks are already going to the level of clamoring such call to the professional regulating body in our country, as we are insisting that they should be regulated by the agency handling "trades" instead.





RE: Defining a "Professional"
Also, you have (c) listed twice. :)
Maine Professional and Structural Engineer.
(Just passed the 16-hour SE exam, woohoo!)
RE: Defining a "Professional"
The Titanic was built by professionals.
B.E.
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
RE: Defining a "Professional"
The Ark was designed and built by the same guy, so he's a professional
TTFN

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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
RE: Defining a "Professional"
See attached thread involving similar issue(s).
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=374748
RE: Defining a "Professional"
What you're asking really is what defines a "regulated professional". A regulated professional is someone who practices a profession which meets two criteria: a) its practice affects the public health, safety or welfare and/or the security of their property against substantial loss, and b) the practice thereof is held in sufficient public regard that laws and regulations are put in place to mandate the requirement for a license with conditions related to who is qualified to practice this profession
Regulation/licensure requirements vary greatly by jurisdiction. Most engineers in the US are not regulated professionals. The only person determining whether or not most of them are fit and qualified to practice is their boss- or perhaps their boss's insurance provider. In contrast, most engineers practicing ENGINEERING in Canada are regulated professionals. Not all, but most. The vast majority of unlicensed engineering grads in Canada, which amount to somewhere near 75% of engineering grads, are NOT practicing engineering- because only about 30% of engineering grads here actually practice engineering.
Not everyone who has a license is a regulated professional. The public grants licenses and permits for lots of things- marriage, use of public space, selling goods etc. The licenses gather fees and confer legal requirements but are not necessarily associated with a practice carried out for hire that involves a public protection function. That begs the question: if a proprietor of a bar requires a liquor license, are they a regulated professional? By that definition, indeed they are!
What distinguishes a regulated/licensed trade from a traditional profession? The latter implies more significant educational requirements and intellectual activity than on manual practice, which the OP has articulated well. The distinction between an engineer or architect and an ironworker, welder or pipefitter is pretty clear along those lines. But you have to be careful there: a nurse will likely slug you one if you call their profession a trade!
Mushy stuff, for sure, and open to abuse in both directions. Here, interior designers were trying to obtain regulated professional status, requiring a license. Yet anyone here can call themselves a "builder" or a "contractor", with zero licensing requirement.
RE: Defining a "Professional"
RE: Defining a "Professional"
RE: Defining a "Professional"
The dividing line between a regulated profession and a regulated trade is a serious issue and one which is being blurred daily.
RE: Defining a "Professional"
"One prerequisite for "profession" = minimum of a specific, relevant, recognized bachelor's degree from an accredited university
One prerequisite for "tradesperson" = diploma from a trade school"
But I know better than to suggest something like that.
So I won't.
RE: Defining a "Professional"
RE: Defining a "Professional"
I'm a farmer. I can have a cow. So, define "cow".
RE: Defining a "Professional"
Are we talking here about the legal title "professional engineer", or is this about professionals in general? There is no title "professional teacher" that I am aware of. If the electrician keeps up and expands his training, works hard and makes a point of doing high quality work, I would call him (or her) a professional. If urgross' prostitute provides value for the money, and refrains from writing memoirs identifying her clients by name, I would call that professional.
--
JHG
RE: Defining a "Professional"
I am of the opinion that, within the context specified by the OP, tradespersons are not professionals.
RE: Defining a "Professional"
OK, here is the answer. Please ignore most of what the others have said, because they are wrong. A professional does not "do it for the money." He/she does it because he/she belongs to one of the three professions. And to responder "ev," it is not a matter of your opinion. It is a matter of definition that goes back several thousand years.
1. An "amateur" (from the Latin "amo" = "I love") is someone who does something because he/she loves to do it. I sing barbershop music. It is for amateurs...that is, people who love to sing the close harmonies of this form of a Capella music.
2. There are a number of words to describe what one does "for a living" or "for the money." The word professional is NOT one of those words! (Think "trade," or "Craft" or "occupation" etc.)
3. There are THREE, and ONLY three, professions: (a) Law (b) Clergy (c) Medicine. A professional is one who belongs to one or more of these three classic professions.
Professions are distinguished by having a complete and definite body of knowledge and specialized terms, standards by which someone can be a member of the profession or NOT be admitted to the profession, and a process of education, examinations, and similar procedures to test an individual's readiness or qualification to be a member of that profession.
By the way, don't bother with the Wikipedia site; it is wrong.
To summarize: An amateur does something because he /she loves it. Various people belong to a trade-group, a craft, a vocation, etc. and if they make money from it they are not amateurs, but they are not professionals either.
A professional is a lawyer/attorney/judge, a doctor/surgeon/ physician, nurse, psyichiatrist, psychologist, or a clergy person: minister/priest/rabbi). There is no such thing as a "professional athlete," a "professional teacher," or a "professional" garbage man, house painter, or auto mechanic.
Those of us who ARE professionals (I am medical as psychologist, and clergy as ordained UCC minister) are not happy when we get lumped together with "the professional house painter" or the "professional cook." (And by the way: Prostitution is NOT the "oldest profession." It is not a profession at all.)
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You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
RE: Defining a "Professional"
How do you like the discussion so far?
RE: Defining a "Professional"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14987179
Maybe it would be just as well to remove "engineering" from being a subset of "professions" and just call it "Engineering", an exclusive set that is neither a subset nor a parent set of anything else, and then agree to a definition of *that*. I maintain that the reason we can't even do *that* is because we, as engineers (whatever that means), have historically and progressively cheapened our own self-worth to the point that we are prepared to let anyone do what we do (whatever that is), without summoning the collective courage or any semblance of guts to stand up for ourselves by agreeing on the definition, defending the right to title, and standing up for ourselves.
Because of that, sadly, if there ever does come into existence a FOURTH profession, it is likely to be an MBA before an "Engineer".
RE: Defining a "Professional"
Language is a fluid thing, and people do know what you mean when you say "professional" football player. It means a football player who has reached a high level of sports excellence and who gets paid for it. There is no way that linguistic toothpaste is going back into the tube.
RE: Defining a "Professional"
More to the point, the most valid current-day definition of profession I have seen is "A self-regulating group applying specialised knowledge for the betterment of society, whether at the individual and group level". I couldn't find the original, so that's my ham-handed paraphrase. I do, however, believe that it is the only valid current definition.
RE: Defining a "Professional"
RE: Defining a "Professional"
http://www.bls.gov/ocsm/commoga.htm
Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.
RE: Defining a "Professional"
Looks like you are correct, in your self assessment that you are wrong.
Your premiss on the oldest profession does not match up with the US Dept of Labor. They would be categorized as:
K469 SERVICE OCCUPATIONS, N.E.C.
or
C274 SALES WORKERS, OTHER COMMODITIES
What is interesting to me but in hindsight makes sense, is that Legislators and Managers are not considered as Professionals.
RE: Defining a "Professional"
RE: Defining a "Professional"
C'mon, guys, it's Friday!
"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future
RE: Defining a "Professional"
RE: Defining a "Professional"
"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future
RE: Defining a "Professional"
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Defining a "Professional"
RE: Defining a "Professional"
RE: Defining a "Professional"
I agree with SNORGY. Engineers do not stand up for the profession. The result, the profession is diluted.
I've had skilled workers claim they could do better work as an engineer than me. I encouraged them to get engineering degrees.
They learned they could do some skilled activities quite good because they had learned on the job. They learned they could not cut engineering.
We need to understand the educational requirements of beginning the process of becoming a degreed engineer. Then perhaps we will politely help others understand what a profession is.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
RE: Defining a "Professional"
RE: Defining a "Professional"
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
RE: Defining a "Professional"
You may have developed an advanced skill set, cultivated those skills over several projects for several paying Clients, and see yourself as a professional. That's a great place to be. I understand not wanting that diminished by interlopers trying to seem to be something, that you are.
But it's just a title. You could sharpie "professional" on a watermelon, but it wouldn't change the fundamentals of the situation -- which would become obvious after scrutiny. Everyone talks a good-game for the first minute-- the pro's can go on for hours.
I have two degress in structural engineering and am licensed to practice in two states. But I know tradespeople who, in my opinion, have a more advanced skill set that they have cultivated over several different projects for several paying Clients...than I. They're professionals, in my book. They can call themselves what they please.
"We shape our buildings, thereafter they shape us." -WSC
RE: Defining a "Professional"
Since engineering is regulated, we need engineers looking at those laws and helping the rest of us know of their workings through government and how they impact our profession so we can call our legislators to give our input. But that is another topic.
When I renew my license in Louisiana, it makes me think a lot about engineering, being a PE, etc. It is more than just a title. It has meaning, action, and consequences. It is a privilege that could be removed from me, if I break the law or code of conduct egregiously enough.
I am going to be blunt. I know PEs that are not as intelligent as others. But they had the foresight, perseverance, and tenacity to get the degree, take the FE, get 4 years of experience, and take the PE until they passed. They consistently met some minimal standard of knowledge, education, experience, etc. set by a lot of organizations and regulating agencies along the way. They, in my opinion, should not be discriminated against, belittled, demeaned, undermined, etc. for the decisions they made. I've not met one PE that demeans or belittles those who decide otherwise. In fact, the ones I know want all engineers to be registered and actively participating in the profession to elevate it and thereby engineers. If engineers do not take care of their profession, it will become something they may not want because regulation is not going away.
People make their own decisions. Good decisions should not be criticized nor should the people making them.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
RE: Defining a "Professional"
RE: Defining a "Professional"
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
RE: Defining a "Professional"
thread732-196326: Professionalism abused?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?