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India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

(OP)
I'm looking at using a 6hp Listeroid diesel, India manufactured, Lister copy, one cylinder, 6hp, 600 rpm, liquid cooled, cast iron cylinder and block, diesel engine. I have no experience with these engines.

Application is a 4kw gen and a heat source for a desalinization plant The ambient rarely gets down to 32F, power is not available, and the area does not have good water. There is water, but it is real high mineral content. This is not for work - it is an off-grid cabin. It is hobby stuff.

Item 1:
So, anybody ever had their hands or eyeballs on one of these engines? I have no idea if they are mediochre or run great forever. One website says with a bit of cleanup machineing they will run great - maybe 40Khrs between overhauls. That would be okay - if true.

Start with the desalinization end:
Use raw water for engine coolant
250F thermostat
Back pressure valve to keep the cooling system pressure to where the raw water does not boil in the engine
Back pressure valve feeds an atmospheric vented tank
Some of the water flashes to steam leaving behind higher mineral content, lower temperature, raw water
Vent the steam through a condenser - clean water
Drain the high mineral content raw water back to source (Bad juju to just dump on the ground)
Maybe use hot coolant discharge to heat incoming water.
Maybe use exhaust gas to heat incoming water

Heat balance - first cut on BTUs available:
Conversions (yes, I think in BTUs and horsepower):
Water vaporization 970BTU/lb
1hp = 2545 BTU/hr
DF sg = 7Lb/gal
DF Lower Heating Value = 128kBTU/gallon = 18,000 BTU/lb
Engine efficiency 38%, .4 Lbs/hr per hp

Figuring engine loaded to 75% (4hp into alternator)
Should be burning 1.6 lb/hour = 28.8k BTU/hr
Extracting 4hp to alternator = 10kBTUs
Rest is waste heat ~ 18k BTUs.

Waste heat is 1/2 ehaust gas, 1/2 in coolant - wild guess, this I don't know
9000 btu/hour evaproates ~9 lbs water/hour = 1-1/8 gallons/hr = 27 gallons/day

So, it looks like $20 day (Fuel costs), gets 27 gallons of water, and 57KWH power. Which is lots of money, plenty of water, way more power than I need.

However, for $3/day, I can get 3 gallons of water and 7 kwh - maybe that works.

I'm an electrical, please - be gentle.

I'm just getting started. Haven't bought anything anything yet. I need a decent plan first.

So what do you think? Feasable? IDK - maybe a solar still is the answer.


Discuss alternator end later.

ice

Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

First cut I'm pretty sure there will be a lot of mineral build up in the cooling system. The deposits on the cylinder liner will create local hot spot, boil off the oil on the piston side and drastically cut into that 40,000 hour TBO. Heating the incoming water and running a 250F Thermostat may also damage the engine; what coolant temperature is it designed for? I doubt if it is above boiling point.

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

I agree running raw water through the engine is asking for trouble. Coolant circuit water should be a closed system, and I'd be inclined to use fairly respectable water rather than letting my engine treat it via rusting and deposits.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

I'd use water/glycol in a closed loop with a radiator to cool the engine. ... as I assume the manufacturer intended. Try to find the Application Handbook for the engine or a similar engine; it should have a lot of good engineering info in it.

Arrange a partial bypass of the radiator, putting the hot coolant through a separate heat exchanger in which you can boil the raw water feed. Maybe pull a vacuum on the condenser to encourage boiling in the evaporator without running the engine super hot.

Preheat the raw water feed with a second radiator mounted in the air discharge from the first radiator.

Recovering exhaust heat will be expensive; either you use 316L and replace it every year, or 6-Mo and replace it every five years.

Those last two, recovering heat from the radiator and the exhaust, may not be worth the trouble and complexity; Diesels generally don't produce a huge amount of waste heat.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

A rule of thumb;
One gallon of diesel fuel will deliver 13 KWHr of energy in a reasonably efficient gen set. An old Lister one hole may get less.
The sweet spot for best fuel economy will be near full load of the engine, not the generator rating.
As the percentage load drops, the fuel economy drops. One one set, when the load drops from 100% to 25%, the fuel consumption only drops to 50%. At no load I would expect fuel consumption to be around 25% of the full load consumption.
I powered a residence for a couple of months with a small gen set until grid power could be installed. The load was;
NO A/C
Two gas furnaces (fans)
Deep well pump
Electric range
Electric kitchen appliances
Sewage pump-out
Washing machine
Electric clothes drier.
We used a 6 kW set with a 25 Amp main breaker (120:240V) This was undersized and we had to discontinue the use of the clothes drier while on the gen set.
Other than that (without the clothes drier) the set performed well.
We found that by far our greatest fuel consumption was during periods of minimum load. The set had to run 24/7 for the furnaces, the water pump and the sewage pump out. However the actual run time of these loads was quite low.
The point is that the fuel consumption figure of 13 kWHrs per gallon of diesel is not often realized.
When commissioning sets in areas with doubtful water supplies, we would purchase enough potable water in 5 gal carboys to mix the coolant.
I know that this has been somewhat of a rambling discourse, but I hope you get some idea of the issues of running a residential genset as prime power.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

Put a generator in for the size you need and buy a reverse osmosis water filtration unit. It will probably need a small booster pump (110/240V powered) to give you the pressure you need. Note that to adequately set the waste/clean water ratio the supplier will need to know the total dissolved solids in the raw water.

As a chem eng/metallurgist the first part of any answer I give starts with "It Depends"

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

I seem to recall that diesel engines require an additive in the coolant to prevent cavitation erosion.

So raw water seems bad, and raw cruddy water probably worse.

Reverse osmosis it probably the way to go. However if you prefer tinkering with stuff you might find an old marine flash evaporator somewhere.

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

(OP)
Most of my work is non-urban Alaska (self-generated).
And I live in rural Alaska - as opposed to "Bush" Alaska.

I've got a good handle on required generation practices and requirements to deal with this at -40 (F or C - you choose)** --

13kwh/gal is better than I have seen for small residential grade diesel. 11.5 - 12.5kwh/gallon (US gallons) would be more the norm. The upper end being a pretty solid, consistent load in the 85% range. It's hard to get a consistent load unless one is charging batteries.

I have only had to deal with one where there was not sufficient power to run the dryer or kitchen range. I got a gas range and a gas dryer and hauled 100Lb propane bottles. My wife never liked the gas oven and that dryer was sucking about 3 Lbs/hour - but all worked okay and I was young enough 100Lb bottles didn't bother me.

This application is not that. I'm looking at an applicaton in mainland America. It's on a road system, but not real easy to get to. I think I'm okay with the generation part. And the water does not have me stuck. But I'd like to do something better than hauling it. And I'd like to do something better than the 3600rpm, 3.3kw air-cooled gasoline Honda I have at my cabin - which has been a good generator, it has supplied minimum intermittent duty for over 15 years now and still running good.

And yes, a softener feeding an RO unit is an option. I'm familiar with residential grade softeners (100gallons/day) and small RO units (4 gallons/day). I've been around industrial boiler grade softeners and RO units - but not a lot.

I got the idea for using the waste heat from an installation I saw a litle over 50 years ago - yes, I'm that old. But the recollection is hazy. This was in the late 1950s, so WWII grade technology. What I remember being told: The installation consisted of a flat head, 4cyl, jeep engine. Raw (ocean grade) salt water fed into the engine as coolant, steam extracted from the coolant outlet - I don't recall if they used a back pressure valve or not. Engine output shaft drove the pumps. It ran 24/7, supplied potable water for maybe 250 people.

Maybe they were replacing the engine every year - don't know. There would have been a lot of military surplus available then. However, you have convinced me running raw water as engine coolant is not the answer.

No question, technology has changed in the last 50 years. By the time I put in a heat exchanger, and get the engine temperature down, maybe the water output is low enough the payback over an RO filter is less than zero.

Bummer - I'd like to do something with the waste heat besides warm the buildings on cool days for the three hours or so per day the gen is running

ice

Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

(OP)
What is a "marine Flash evaporator"? Sounds interesting.

Does anyone have any hands-on or even been around an engine of this type?

ice

Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

(1) WWII jeep engines were cast iron flat-heads, that displaced about 120 CI and put out about 40 hp. I'm not surprised they could run on seawater cooling.

(2) Flash-type evaps work by heating the water to 165F to 175F; the lower temp is to kill bacteria, the upper to minimize scaling of the heating surface. Then a vacuum is applied and the water "flashes" to steam. The steam is condensed and you have essentially distilled water. There are typically 2-4 stages, with heating in the first stage, vacuum applied in the last stage and a series of orifices to maintain a differential pressure between stages. Once balanced, they work very well.

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

I have been around several sites that used the India Lister knockoffs, along with "real" Lister engines, mostly for small generators, pumps and compressors. The biggest problem I saw with the knockoffs were poor machining/fit, causing leaks and related performance problems. Not the most efficient of engines but could be pretty reliable if cleaned up and taken care of. In reality most sites I worked on went back to genuine Lister engines for the most part.

Alfa Laval makes a range of evap type water makers, varying sizes and capabilities, these are very common on off shore rigs and work vessels, here is a link,

http://www.alfalaval.com/industries/power/download...
At one time they made a fairly simple all bronze body unit that was popular on fishing vessels and small tugs, but a quick search of their site didn't show it.

Other companies, like Westfalia also make systems, but usually in larger sizes.

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

(OP)

Quote:

I have been around several sites that used the India Lister knockoffs, along with "real" Lister engines, mostly for small generators, pumps and compressors. The biggest problem I saw with the knockoffs were poor machining/fit, causing leaks and related performance problems. Not the most efficient of engines but could be pretty reliable if cleaned up and taken care of. In reality most sites I worked on went back to genuine Lister engines for the most part.
I did not know that was even possible. I recall seeing British built 2 cyl Listers probably thirty years ago (early 1980s) - These were used, older generators. I thought they had stopped producing them maybe forty years ago. You are saying there are current production, new, British built, 1 cyl and 2 cyl, Lister design engines available?

ice

Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

Lister also makes a nice little 15 KW set with a four cylinder liquid cooled engine. It looks like it belongs under the hood of a small Nissan pickup truck.
I installed and serviced about a dozen of them on residential standby service. They were dependable and trouble free.
One event: the old listers had a reputation for leaking oil and being generally filthy to come near and even dirtier to repair.
The muffler on the new sets has a spot welded rather than a seam welded muffler, seam down. The muffler is mounted above the engine. I had one that pupmped oil badly, brand new. Within an hour the engine was covered with dirty sooty oil. Just like the old time listers. It was a nostalgic moment if you could appreciate the irony.
But, to the engines credit, after load banking the set to set in the rings, the engine ran well and clean for years.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

For years R A Lister and Petter were rivals, My father and I used both of them on Gensets for farm use with the Petter units at the time 1960s being more user friendly. Since they have now combined and are still in production. the only reason for using the Indian Fu King knock offs would be first cost , and you have to bear in mind , you get what you pay for.
Old engine .org has a lot of data on Lister and Petter engines together with many other stationary engines. The link I have provided is the second page in on Lister engines and some of it is still current data. About the 5th line down is a table on cooling tank sizes for the old open top petrol engines.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

While you are looking for those kind of Gensets, here is a company based in the UK, which was started by a bunch of refugee Lister employees, they are in Quedgeley Gloucestershire, not too far from Dursley where Lister's started. I only know them through their marine side, but you can talk to them and see what else they do.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

(OP)
I looked at the Lister-Petter website. I didn't see any liquid cooled 1 cyl or 600rpm engines. Which doesn't surprise me - technology has moved on in the last 40 years.

ice

Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

(OP)
Thanks
I looked at their website. I didn't see any 60 hz on Beta Marine website. But they do have a US outlet. Looks like they are using Kubota engines. So likely they are available in 60 hz. Didn't see any prices.

ice

Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

You do not need 250F to distill water. In a solar still, when water is heated above ambient temperature it will condense on the plastic film that covers the water basin or pond. You may have noticed that even ice water will "steam" in very cold air.
Of course, the warmer the water, and the more surface area of water and film that you have, the greater the rate of distillation will be. Any source of heat can be used.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_still

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

(OP)

Quote:

You do not need 250F to distill water. In a solar still, when water is heated above ambient temperature it will condense on the plastic film that covers the water basin or pond. You may have noticed that even ice water will "steam" in very cold air.

oh yeah - infact at -40F, take a coffee cup of hot water outside and pitch the water in the air. None will hit the ground. it just evaporates into a cloud. Kind of neat to see the first time.

I'm short on knowledge concerning plate distillers. It appears one needs a vaccuum, and I'm short on how one might do that - efficiently. Working.

ice

Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

Typical flash type evaporators were usually associated with steam plants, so the heat came from low pressure (~15 psig) exhaust steam and the vacuum was created by an air ejector (venture pump) using 150 psig motive steam. Some of the evaps may use a vacuum pump. Before you say that's too hard/power hungry the reverse osmosis plants use pumps capable of 1000's of psig to function.

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

(OP)
[quote]Before you say that's too hard/power hungry the reverse osmosis plants use pumps capable of 1000's of psig to function

Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

(OP)
*&%&%*& No edit ^%@#!@+) - fat fingered the last post

Quote:

Before you say that's too hard/power hungry the reverse osmosis plants use pumps capable of 1000's of psig to function
No, just don't know about it - yet

ice

Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

( If you Red Flag a message, you can then ask that it be removed, or edited as you precisely describe. Apparently the extra work associated with manual editing is not so onerous that site management is motivated to provide user editing.
)

Last time I checked, a small RO system required you to pressurize the dirtyish feed water to 100 ... 200 psig, so PVC pipe is often sufficient. Then you circulate it through the RO filter, and bleed off ~10 pct of the recirc flow as clean water from the clean side of the membrane. Then you depressurize the now more dirty water, and dump it or recycle some into the original dirty feed. I.e., in addition to the RO pack itself, you need a boiler feed pump and a relief valve that can deal with dirty water, and they have to be sized for ~10x the net clean flow. Commercial packages on skids exist; bring your wallet. Components for hombrewing also exist; expect to spend some time on supervision and maintenance.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

(OP)
That's consistent with what I'm seeing.

Quote:

Commercial packages on skids exist; bring your wallet.
My undercounter at home is a GE membrane, 6gpd. It operates at 60psi. The desalinization membranes I looked up were speced for 800psi - yes, they take a healthy pump. All the units I saw in the 8 - 10 gph were marine yacht - $5K+. I'm not there yet. I can hire a hell of a lot of water hauled for $5K.

As for red flagging - thanks, good to know. In this case, I was only minorly whinney for a few seconds.

ice

Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

I used to run a saltwater reef tank- it would require about 9L of distilled water a day as topup to make up for evaporation. For $200 (Aussie) you can buy a wall mount RO system that will generate 200L/day (50gpd) using a booster pump (another couple of hundred dollars) that plugs into a wall socket. The whole thing comes pre plumbed with pressure resistant tubing and fitting to connect it to your wall faucet.

The system would be cheaper in the US- that's where most of the gear comes from. The power required to run the pump is <50W. (It uses a transformer to drop the voltage down to 24VDC and the pump draws 0.72amps)

How much water do you need a day?

As a chem eng/metallurgist the first part of any answer I give starts with "It Depends"

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

(OP)

Quote:

For $200 (Aussie) you can buy a wall mount RO system that will generate 200L/day (50gpd) using a booster pump (another couple of hundred dollars) that plugs into a wall socket. ...

That sounds great. All the ones I saw were 10X the money - $5K range. Would you have a trade name? I'll get looking for it.

ice

Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

(OP)
Thanks for everyone's responses. I'll let you kinow if I get anywhere.

ice

Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

Sorry iceworm- Christmas holidays and all.

The local company selling them in Australia is "PSI Filters". If you go on their website you may be able to work out who supplies them from the USA. There's a page that describes their RO systems. Housings are from Pentek, pre filters from GE Osmonics and membranes are Dow Fimtec.

If you contact them they may be able to assist you with options in the USA.

Cheers,

Daniel

As a chem eng/metallurgist the first part of any answer I give starts with "It Depends"

RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant

(OP)
I'm not in a hurry - thank you

ice

Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction

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