India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
(OP)
I'm looking at using a 6hp Listeroid diesel, India manufactured, Lister copy, one cylinder, 6hp, 600 rpm, liquid cooled, cast iron cylinder and block, diesel engine. I have no experience with these engines.
Application is a 4kw gen and a heat source for a desalinization plant The ambient rarely gets down to 32F, power is not available, and the area does not have good water. There is water, but it is real high mineral content. This is not for work - it is an off-grid cabin. It is hobby stuff.
Item 1:
So, anybody ever had their hands or eyeballs on one of these engines? I have no idea if they are mediochre or run great forever. One website says with a bit of cleanup machineing they will run great - maybe 40Khrs between overhauls. That would be okay - if true.
Start with the desalinization end:
Heat balance - first cut on BTUs available:
Conversions (yes, I think in BTUs and horsepower):
Figuring engine loaded to 75% (4hp into alternator)
Should be burning 1.6 lb/hour = 28.8k BTU/hr
Extracting 4hp to alternator = 10kBTUs
Rest is waste heat ~ 18k BTUs.
Waste heat is 1/2 ehaust gas, 1/2 in coolant - wild guess, this I don't know
9000 btu/hour evaproates ~9 lbs water/hour = 1-1/8 gallons/hr = 27 gallons/day
So, it looks like $20 day (Fuel costs), gets 27 gallons of water, and 57KWH power. Which is lots of money, plenty of water, way more power than I need.
However, for $3/day, I can get 3 gallons of water and 7 kwh - maybe that works.
I'm an electrical, please - be gentle.
I'm just getting started. Haven't bought anything anything yet. I need a decent plan first.
So what do you think? Feasable? IDK - maybe a solar still is the answer.
Discuss alternator end later.
ice
Application is a 4kw gen and a heat source for a desalinization plant The ambient rarely gets down to 32F, power is not available, and the area does not have good water. There is water, but it is real high mineral content. This is not for work - it is an off-grid cabin. It is hobby stuff.
Item 1:
So, anybody ever had their hands or eyeballs on one of these engines? I have no idea if they are mediochre or run great forever. One website says with a bit of cleanup machineing they will run great - maybe 40Khrs between overhauls. That would be okay - if true.
Start with the desalinization end:
Use raw water for engine coolant
250F thermostat
Back pressure valve to keep the cooling system pressure to where the raw water does not boil in the engine
Back pressure valve feeds an atmospheric vented tank
Some of the water flashes to steam leaving behind higher mineral content, lower temperature, raw water
Vent the steam through a condenser - clean water
Drain the high mineral content raw water back to source (Bad juju to just dump on the ground)
Maybe use hot coolant discharge to heat incoming water.
Maybe use exhaust gas to heat incoming water
250F thermostat
Back pressure valve to keep the cooling system pressure to where the raw water does not boil in the engine
Back pressure valve feeds an atmospheric vented tank
Some of the water flashes to steam leaving behind higher mineral content, lower temperature, raw water
Vent the steam through a condenser - clean water
Drain the high mineral content raw water back to source (Bad juju to just dump on the ground)
Maybe use hot coolant discharge to heat incoming water.
Maybe use exhaust gas to heat incoming water
Heat balance - first cut on BTUs available:
Conversions (yes, I think in BTUs and horsepower):
Water vaporization 970BTU/lb
1hp = 2545 BTU/hr
DF sg = 7Lb/gal
DF Lower Heating Value = 128kBTU/gallon = 18,000 BTU/lb
Engine efficiency 38%, .4 Lbs/hr per hp
1hp = 2545 BTU/hr
DF sg = 7Lb/gal
DF Lower Heating Value = 128kBTU/gallon = 18,000 BTU/lb
Engine efficiency 38%, .4 Lbs/hr per hp
Figuring engine loaded to 75% (4hp into alternator)
Should be burning 1.6 lb/hour = 28.8k BTU/hr
Extracting 4hp to alternator = 10kBTUs
Rest is waste heat ~ 18k BTUs.
Waste heat is 1/2 ehaust gas, 1/2 in coolant - wild guess, this I don't know
9000 btu/hour evaproates ~9 lbs water/hour = 1-1/8 gallons/hr = 27 gallons/day
So, it looks like $20 day (Fuel costs), gets 27 gallons of water, and 57KWH power. Which is lots of money, plenty of water, way more power than I need.
However, for $3/day, I can get 3 gallons of water and 7 kwh - maybe that works.
I'm an electrical, please - be gentle.
I'm just getting started. Haven't bought anything anything yet. I need a decent plan first.
So what do you think? Feasable? IDK - maybe a solar still is the answer.
Discuss alternator end later.
ice
Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction





RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
Arrange a partial bypass of the radiator, putting the hot coolant through a separate heat exchanger in which you can boil the raw water feed. Maybe pull a vacuum on the condenser to encourage boiling in the evaporator without running the engine super hot.
Preheat the raw water feed with a second radiator mounted in the air discharge from the first radiator.
Recovering exhaust heat will be expensive; either you use 316L and replace it every year, or 6-Mo and replace it every five years.
Those last two, recovering heat from the radiator and the exhaust, may not be worth the trouble and complexity; Diesels generally don't produce a huge amount of waste heat.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
One gallon of diesel fuel will deliver 13 KWHr of energy in a reasonably efficient gen set. An old Lister one hole may get less.
The sweet spot for best fuel economy will be near full load of the engine, not the generator rating.
As the percentage load drops, the fuel economy drops. One one set, when the load drops from 100% to 25%, the fuel consumption only drops to 50%. At no load I would expect fuel consumption to be around 25% of the full load consumption.
I powered a residence for a couple of months with a small gen set until grid power could be installed. The load was;
NO A/C
Two gas furnaces (fans)
Deep well pump
Electric range
Electric kitchen appliances
Sewage pump-out
Washing machine
Electric clothes drier.
We used a 6 kW set with a 25 Amp main breaker (120:240V) This was undersized and we had to discontinue the use of the clothes drier while on the gen set.
Other than that (without the clothes drier) the set performed well.
We found that by far our greatest fuel consumption was during periods of minimum load. The set had to run 24/7 for the furnaces, the water pump and the sewage pump out. However the actual run time of these loads was quite low.
The point is that the fuel consumption figure of 13 kWHrs per gallon of diesel is not often realized.
When commissioning sets in areas with doubtful water supplies, we would purchase enough potable water in 5 gal carboys to mix the coolant.
I know that this has been somewhat of a rambling discourse, but I hope you get some idea of the issues of running a residential genset as prime power.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
As a chem eng/metallurgist the first part of any answer I give starts with "It Depends"
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
So raw water seems bad, and raw cruddy water probably worse.
Reverse osmosis it probably the way to go. However if you prefer tinkering with stuff you might find an old marine flash evaporator somewhere.
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
And I live in rural Alaska - as opposed to "Bush" Alaska.
I've got a good handle on required generation practices and requirements to deal with this at -40 (F or C - you choose)** --
13kwh/gal is better than I have seen for small residential grade diesel. 11.5 - 12.5kwh/gallon (US gallons) would be more the norm. The upper end being a pretty solid, consistent load in the 85% range. It's hard to get a consistent load unless one is charging batteries.
I have only had to deal with one where there was not sufficient power to run the dryer or kitchen range. I got a gas range and a gas dryer and hauled 100Lb propane bottles. My wife never liked the gas oven and that dryer was sucking about 3 Lbs/hour - but all worked okay and I was young enough 100Lb bottles didn't bother me.
This application is not that. I'm looking at an applicaton in mainland America. It's on a road system, but not real easy to get to. I think I'm okay with the generation part. And the water does not have me stuck. But I'd like to do something better than hauling it. And I'd like to do something better than the 3600rpm, 3.3kw air-cooled gasoline Honda I have at my cabin - which has been a good generator, it has supplied minimum intermittent duty for over 15 years now and still running good.
And yes, a softener feeding an RO unit is an option. I'm familiar with residential grade softeners (100gallons/day) and small RO units (4 gallons/day). I've been around industrial boiler grade softeners and RO units - but not a lot.
I got the idea for using the waste heat from an installation I saw a litle over 50 years ago - yes, I'm that old. But the recollection is hazy. This was in the late 1950s, so WWII grade technology. What I remember being told: The installation consisted of a flat head, 4cyl, jeep engine. Raw (ocean grade) salt water fed into the engine as coolant, steam extracted from the coolant outlet - I don't recall if they used a back pressure valve or not. Engine output shaft drove the pumps. It ran 24/7, supplied potable water for maybe 250 people.
Maybe they were replacing the engine every year - don't know. There would have been a lot of military surplus available then. However, you have convinced me running raw water as engine coolant is not the answer.
No question, technology has changed in the last 50 years. By the time I put in a heat exchanger, and get the engine temperature down, maybe the water output is low enough the payback over an RO filter is less than zero.
Bummer - I'd like to do something with the waste heat besides warm the buildings on cool days for the three hours or so per day the gen is running
ice
Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
Does anyone have any hands-on or even been around an engine of this type?
ice
Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
(2) Flash-type evaps work by heating the water to 165F to 175F; the lower temp is to kill bacteria, the upper to minimize scaling of the heating surface. Then a vacuum is applied and the water "flashes" to steam. The steam is condensed and you have essentially distilled water. There are typically 2-4 stages, with heating in the first stage, vacuum applied in the last stage and a series of orifices to maintain a differential pressure between stages. Once balanced, they work very well.
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
Alfa Laval makes a range of evap type water makers, varying sizes and capabilities, these are very common on off shore rigs and work vessels, here is a link,
http://www.alfalaval.com/industries/power/download...
At one time they made a fairly simple all bronze body unit that was popular on fishing vessels and small tugs, but a quick search of their site didn't show it.
Other companies, like Westfalia also make systems, but usually in larger sizes.
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
ice
Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
I installed and serviced about a dozen of them on residential standby service. They were dependable and trouble free.
One event: the old listers had a reputation for leaking oil and being generally filthy to come near and even dirtier to repair.
The muffler on the new sets has a spot welded rather than a seam welded muffler, seam down. The muffler is mounted above the engine. I had one that pupmped oil badly, brand new. Within an hour the engine was covered with dirty sooty oil. Just like the old time listers. It was a nostalgic moment if you could appreciate the irony.
But, to the engines credit, after load banking the set to set in the rings, the engine ran well and clean for years.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
Old engine .org has a lot of data on Lister and Petter engines together with many other stationary engines. The link I have provided is the second page in on Lister engines and some of it is still current data. About the 5th line down is a table on cooling tank sizes for the old open top petrol engines.
B.E.
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
ice
Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
I looked at their website. I didn't see any 60 hz on Beta Marine website. But they do have a US outlet. Looks like they are using Kubota engines. So likely they are available in 60 hz. Didn't see any prices.
ice
Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
Of course, the warmer the water, and the more surface area of water and film that you have, the greater the rate of distillation will be. Any source of heat can be used.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_still
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
http://www.lister-petter.com/p/power-water-solutio...
Another possibility for an industrial engine in this size range is Yanmar, my experience with them has been mostly positive, I worked for a company that packaged small marine gensets with these for a number of years with very few engine related issues.
http://us.yanmar.com/products/industrial-engines/
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
oh yeah - infact at -40F, take a coffee cup of hot water outside and pitch the water in the air. None will hit the ground. it just evaporates into a cloud. Kind of neat to see the first time.
I'm short on knowledge concerning plate distillers. It appears one needs a vaccuum, and I'm short on how one might do that - efficiently. Working.
ice
Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
No, just don't know about it - yet
ice
Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
)
Last time I checked, a small RO system required you to pressurize the dirtyish feed water to 100 ... 200 psig, so PVC pipe is often sufficient. Then you circulate it through the RO filter, and bleed off ~10 pct of the recirc flow as clean water from the clean side of the membrane. Then you depressurize the now more dirty water, and dump it or recycle some into the original dirty feed. I.e., in addition to the RO pack itself, you need a boiler feed pump and a relief valve that can deal with dirty water, and they have to be sized for ~10x the net clean flow. Commercial packages on skids exist; bring your wallet. Components for hombrewing also exist; expect to spend some time on supervision and maintenance.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
My undercounter at home is a GE membrane, 6gpd. It operates at 60psi. The desalinization membranes I looked up were speced for 800psi - yes, they take a healthy pump. All the units I saw in the 8 - 10 gph were marine yacht - $5K+. I'm not there yet. I can hire a hell of a lot of water hauled for $5K.
As for red flagging - thanks, good to know. In this case, I was only minorly whinney for a few seconds.
ice
Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
The system would be cheaper in the US- that's where most of the gear comes from. The power required to run the pump is <50W. (It uses a transformer to drop the voltage down to 24VDC and the pump draws 0.72amps)
How much water do you need a day?
As a chem eng/metallurgist the first part of any answer I give starts with "It Depends"
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
That sounds great. All the ones I saw were 10X the money - $5K range. Would you have a trade name? I'll get looking for it.
ice
Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
ice
Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
The local company selling them in Australia is "PSI Filters". If you go on their website you may be able to work out who supplies them from the USA. There's a page that describes their RO systems. Housings are from Pentek, pre filters from GE Osmonics and membranes are Dow Fimtec.
If you contact them they may be able to assist you with options in the USA.
Cheers,
Daniel
As a chem eng/metallurgist the first part of any answer I give starts with "It Depends"
RE: India built Listeroid generator and desalinization plant
ice
Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction