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Target Shooting

Target Shooting

Target Shooting

(OP)
One of my hobbies is target shooting and reloading. Factory ammo is very good, but as a reloader, I can use cartridge cases and overall lengths that fit my rifle like a glove. Just found a Remington 700 bolt action in 25-06; a somewhat obsolete but still viable round formed by reducing the mouth of a 30-06 to take a .257 inch bullet.

Initial test firing of 10 rounds of factory ammo at 100 yards.

[img ]

This is going to be fun when I get it tuned up.

RE: Target Shooting

I haven't reloaded I decades. I really enjoyed it when I had the space to work and the range to imeddately test, but times have changed. I have had the urge to get back into it. So my big question to you, where do you get powder and primers? (I don't know, maybe bullets are also scarse)

RE: Target Shooting

(OP)
Bullets can be had on-line; both the wife and the UPS guy loved my last order of 500 230 grain .45 bullets when they showed up. Powder and primers are subject to a mandatory $28 hazmat shipping fee so I haunt all the local gun and sports shops. Bass-pro is usually good for primers and I got the first 100 85 grain .257 bullets for the new rifle there. I was actually looking for powder in a shop near my in-laws that I'd not visited before when I stumbled upon the 25-06 rifle. Shop early, shop often and know a fair price when you see it (powder $25-30 a pound, primers $3-4 a hundred). The loading and precision are as interesting to me as the shooting.

RE: Target Shooting

I had a browning A-Bolt in 25-06, SS and plastic. Finally sold it a few years back. It was a good rifle, but between it and I, we were never that good. That looks really nice.

I used a 117gr boat-tailed Hornady (factory loaded) sighted in for 5 inches low at 300yd - ~5 inches high midrange. Probably the best I did was a 4.5" group (3 shots) at 300yds. It was a light weight little sucker with a skinny barrel - and it would heat up and drift after three.

The heavy bullet was because I was hunting moose. If you are thinking of telling me it is too small, you're in good company - join the crowd elk But over the 10 years I used it, I did get maybe 5 moose - every one I shot at. And 300yds was about it - the retained energy is getting pretty low.

So where am I going (other than telling hunting lies - (ahhh ...true accounts that is) I don't think it is so obsolete. If you want 25 caliber what else you going to get? 257 Weatherby? okay. My dad use one for several years. Flatter, a little better range - but no more acurate. And in my mind it is all about the accuracy - shot placement beats horse-power any day.

And you got an accurate one. Handloading can only improve. I think you are right - going to be fun.

ice

Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction

RE: Target Shooting

Yes, far better to make your purchases from a local source and let them pick up the hazmat charges. I deal with a garage gun shop run by a fellow from my former employer. Of course, I have to call ahead in order to catch him and lots of time, as a small time dealer, he just can't get stuff. I'm mainly reloading .44 mag and may try some .45 ACP this winter. Nice shooting.

RE: Target Shooting

Quote (byrdj)

I really enjoyed it when I had the space to work and the range to imeddately test, but times have changed.

What are you thinking? If you don't have time for the loading (I don't any more), get something put together and get the kids out there. Teach safety and motor skills. If you don't do it and pass it on - we are the last generation.

I've got two medium target grade, single shot 22s, an Anschutz Junior, short - adjustable length of pull; and a full size stocked, Remmington 540X. Inexpensive, good peep sights, excellent to teach.

Sometimes the parents have a fit that I am equiping the kids are to be snippers. I have yet to suggest to mom that she is equiped to be a prostutite - Is she? And, if the country continues to get into armed conflicts - then, God Bless our snippers.

Instead I say it is about safety, responsibility, motor skills - and it ia a lot less dangerous than driving a car.

I'm not slapping at you - but get shooting. And spread it around.

ice

Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction

RE: Target Shooting

I also loaded for precision versus bulk, even though the cost benifit back then was very significant too. Nearly all my loading was with the Classic Lee Loader kits. I had to get a heavy press for the larger cases, but still just the press, nothing progressive.

As far as the work area, it really was very minimun. I made up caliber kits using those plastic "pistol cases" that would contained a box of brass or loaded rounds, a tin of powder, box of bullets, primers, the Lee kit, a plastic mallet,and a 2X6 with approatiely drilled holes.

story of interst that could not occur today. The site VP at a Nuclear plant heard of my hobby and we were discussing his new elk/moose rifle in 300WM and the high cost of ammo. I made him up a kit, presented it to him in his office (on site, but outside the Protected Area) and we loaded a few rounds to show him how.

Do you use a Chrono along with group size to elvaluate your loads.

RE: Target Shooting

Quote:

Do you use a Chrono along with group size to elvaluate your loads.

I think they are a great idea. I bought an in-expensive Oehler(?), several years ago - $150 or so, as I recall. It was kind of nice to check a new load for delta V. Was able to convince my buddy (new 300 Weatherby) to get new brass from the same lot. I ended up giving it to him when I figured out I was done. Sigh - other things got in the way.

Still, I wish I still had my Star (45, auto case feeder, ~ 1980). It got lost in one of the moves - Double Sigh

ice

Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction

RE: Target Shooting

(OP)
I'm a member of the Izaak Walton League, we are dedicated to passing on shooting, hunting, fishing, and most importantly, conservation and stewardship of our natural resources to youth. I have no doubt you took moose with a 25-06. It is one of those anomalies of ballistics, like a 28 gauge shotgun, that is far more effective than it appears to be. Two people at the range shot my new gun today and both were impressed with the trigger and overall accuracy. It seems to (in factory ammo anyway) favor lighter bullets.

RE: Target Shooting

Are you aware there could be a trigger problem with some R 700's?

The 25 caliber does have some decent hunting bullets commercial available. I just pick up a pseudo dangerous game hunting rifle in 223 and thought I could get some true round nose, but I don't think they are being produced any more. I also wanted to try Trail Boss for low velocity

RE: Target Shooting

(OP)
Yes, all kinds of "dirty laundry" coming out about the Model 700 and the original trigger design. I think a certain amount was owner carelessness and the fact that the original trigger had many adjustments, including one that reduced the sear engagement!

RE: Target Shooting

Quote (The Blacksmith)

I have no doubt you took moose with a 25-06. It is one of those anomalies of ballistics, like a 28 gauge shotgun, that is far more effective than it appears to be.
Wow, I didn't realize I sounded like internet bragging - I'll be watching my mouth in the future. Just the appearance is disgusting.

I live in the center of the interior of Alaska - well over 30 years. Not the best moose hunting in the world - but pretty good. Consider Fairbanks is 450 feet above sea level. Followinig the Tanana to the Yukon to the ocean is maybe 1500 river miles (guessing - but it is a long ways) Miles and miles of swamp every where - and them moose love that. And I don't need a guide.

Resident hunting and fishing license is $48. Resident moose tag is free. Except I turned 60 a few years ago, so I have a perminent free hunting and fishing license. Non-resident hunting license and a moose tag is $85 and $400 - and you have to have a guide (I'd guess a few $K). I'm guessing most of you living in mainland America won't ever get a chance. That's a bummer, but if it was easy - we would be Californicated in minutes. So, it is truth, but I still don't care to look like an internet brag.

Now about the 25-06. I'm certain all here know this - if not, you can look this up and verify yourself. I am not a believer in magic ballistics.

Looking at the retained energy at 300yds:
25-06 117gr BT ......... 1379 ft-lbs
30-06 180gr BT ......... 1765
300 Win Mag 180gr BT ... 2165
300 Wby Mag 180gr BT ... 2429
338 Win Mag 225gr BT ... 2700


Just for comparison:
30-30 150gr RN ......... 532
243 100gr BT .......... 1175

I can't verify the next statements - but they likely look reasonable:

70 years ago likely the most popular rifle was a 30-30. Now that is a poor rifle - but they killed a lot of moose. No I wasn't here for that.

Forty years ago likely the most popular was a 30-06. Also killed plenty of moose. Hell of a lot more effective than a 30-30. I was here for that. I had an 30-03A3 Springfield, severely modified. Definitely a cheap gun. Still got it - still looks terrible, still really like it.

A 25-06 has 1379 ft-lbs at 300yds. That is not alot - 75% of an 30-06. Shot placement is critical. Plenty have told me that the gun is too small. Too much chance of wounding and escape. I would not deny that is true. Shot placement is critical (didn't I say that already.)

The rest is just unverifiable internet gas:
The hump is great - fractures the backbone. Neck is good. Head is not good. Their brain is about the size of an orange - smaller than a softball, surrounded by a basketball sized casing of bone. Lung shot is trickey. They will bleed out, but if they spook, they can run a long ways in 30 seconds - and once they fall in the swamp grass, they are near invisible. You just about have to step on them to find them.

And the one time that I shot a 28ga. I recall it was an O/U, open and skeet(?). Nice looking and handling gun - really pretty. However, as for being effective, the nicest I can say is: There are no magic ballistics.

So believeth The Worm

Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction

RE: Target Shooting

(OP)
First, I didn't think you were bragging. My point was that the 25-06 has a good ballistic coefficient and speed, so it is less affecting by crosswinds and gravity and allows precise shot placement. The 28 gauge has only 3/4 oz of shhttp://www.eng-tips.com/ot, but tends to flatten fewer pellets that leave the pattern so it can break skeet as well as a 12 gauge with 1 1/8 oz of shot. I really don't hunt, preferring target shooting, so the lighter, faster bullets (75-80 gr) work well. I can also take varmints with them. If someone did talk me into deer hunting, I would not be undergunned in the least with the 117 gr bullets.

RE: Target Shooting

Quote:

First, I didn't think you were bragging.
Good, then I phrased it better that I thought

Quote:

My point was that the 25-06 has a good ballistic coefficient and speed, so it is less affecting by crosswinds and gravity and allows precise shot placement
I can't think of a better 25 cal on the market. And I always liked the Rem 700. I shot a couple of their high end models, Classic? (ADL? BDL? - ugg too many years ago) Good guns.

ice

Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction

RE: Target Shooting

(OP)
Mine is a BDL; with the ebony caps on the forend and the pistol grip. Call me old, but I've always had a soft spot for blued steel and walnut.

RE: Target Shooting

Almost as much fun as firearms is learning to shoot an air rifle well. Some colleagues at work and I have been doing so, and 3/4 of us have purchased good quality precharged pneumatic rifles...and then spent more time and money to find the "perfect" pellet to feed them, and to tune the guns themselves (adjusting pellet velocity, trigger pull, etc.). I could write a fairly long story about this, but the end game - achieving decent (less than 1") groups at 30 to 50 yards - was worth the effort.

RE: Target Shooting

Quote (btrueblood)

... good quality precharged pneumatic rifles...

I've been looking for a decent quality air rifle (peep sight). Nothing available around here. I'm pretty sure I'm not up the the price of an Olympic grade. What brands would you suggest?

ice

Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction

RE: Target Shooting


Quote (TheBlacksmith)


Mine is a BDL; with the ebony caps on the forend and the pistol grip. Call me old, but I've always had a soft spot for blued steel and walnut.
I am old. And I like black plastic and stainless. They do look like a Mattel compared to your ebony caps and nice checkering. But I do like the stability - temperature, humidity, mud, ice.

Luckily they make both types.

ice

Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction

RE: Target Shooting

iceworm - "What brands would you suggest"

That's like asking for the "best" gunpowder rifle :). I ended up dropping ~$500 for a Benjamin (Crosman brand) Marauder, mostly because it has lots of adjustability and is one of the cheaper precharged pneumatic (PCP) rifles. It's also very quiet, at least as sold in the US, because it has a built in moderator, so I can practice in the back yard without bothering the neighbors too much. This was after trying several versions of (~$100-200) spring-air rifles, the type that use a coiled spring to create the air pressure that launches the pellet. The extra recoil and vibration of the spring releasing and then stopping make the spring rifles harder to shoot accurately, especially at longer ranges and higher velocities. There are much more expensive PCP rifles, a few of which are specified (not just advertised) to be very precise (one brand I am tempted by is the FX brand, they specify 0.5" groups at 75 yards, but I balk at the $1500+ price ranges). A version like the Marauder, the "Challenger", built by Crosman, is a very good, low cost, competition grade PCP with iron sights.

If you were just looking to plink in the back yard, I would look at a rifle called the Air Venturi "Bronco". It's a low-powered spring rifle, which while it still recoils twice, has a lesser kick and is touted to be an easier rifle to shoot than its heavier-powered, higher-velocity cousins. IT comes with iron sights also.

The nice thing is, I can find ammo (pellets) for my air rifle much more readily and cheaply than .22 LR, so plinking is fun again. And the local farmers like that we don't scare cows or put holes in the barn roofs when we go chase pest birds off the silage bins for them.

RE: Target Shooting

Judging by the prices, all of the above are USA based?

Well, contrary to popular belief, here in the UK we can have guns!

As for reloading I reload for the following rifles:

A Swiss military rifle. Model K31. 7.5 x 55 calibre (the bullets are actually .308, but the Swiss, wanting to be seen as neutral called it 7.5 so not to be confused with 7.62 NATO!) It's a straight pull with very fancy bolt arrangement. A work of precision watch making - a single finger can close the bolt. All of the rifle is superbly made. They have been described as a target rifle disguised as a military one. The extra case volume allows more powder room than a .308 and it's good for being supersonic over a 1000yds.

A 6.5 x 55 Swedish M41/b sniper rifle. It's one of only about 5000 ever made. The rifle was made in 1910 and converted into a sniper using a Nazi made 'scope in 1942. The 6.5x55 calibre is popular in Scandinavia for moose and deer as it has low recoil and is very penetrating. After all these years it will still group around 8" at 700yds. Probably better with someone else using it!

A .308 custom target job. Surgeon (USA!) action, UK made barrel and AI stock. My 14 year-old loves it (as he does the others). He can shoot out a 2" bull at 600yds. Competitive sort of boy.

One thing about the costs of reloading vs shop bought is that a lot of folk are comparing apples with pears. I always think home loads should be compared with precision target ammo costs. Then it becomes more realistic.

H

www.tynevalleyplastics.co.uk

It's ok to soar like an eagle, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

RE: Target Shooting

.25-06 is nowhere close to obsolete, Noreen even manufactures that caliber for their AR10 platform rifles. Not trying to be a smarta$$, but you should be able to cover those 100 yard groups with a nickel or dime! Remington 700 actions are remarkable in what you can make them do. Best all-around choice, IMHO, tops above the Mausers and pre-64 Winchesters.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

RE: Target Shooting

(OP)
Many manufacturers are dropping that caliber from their lineup, and reloading dies have been discontinued by some makers. This is why I said it was "somewhat" obsolete; everybody was a .223 AR-15 so they can be tacticool. Those were my first shots since buying the gun and I was very pleased; get nice 3 shot groups, then got careless and opened it up with the 4th and 5th. I fully expect with handloads and practice I should be able to get down to 1/2 inch groups; that's both the fun and challenge. Agree that the 700 is a fine action, it was pretty much always going to be a 700, only the caliber was in question and this was by far the best price/best condition 700 in one of the calibers I was searching for. I guess I was the ice-breaker, there are a few target shooters here.

RE: Target Shooting

Blacksmith, I'm glad you didn't take me too seriously. Shooting is an incredibly fun sport, and razzing each other about their "huge" groups is part of it. Your first groupings would put meat on the table, no doubt about that! It always surprises me how calibers trend throughout the years, and even from one region to another. I shoot Hornady 117 gr SST's in my 700 .25-06, and for the time being, our local retailers always have plenty on hand. I would love to get all set up in reloading, maybe in a couple of years when retirement catches me off guard.

I'm betting you'll easily get down to 1/2" groups with your 700. I've got gunsmith buddies just south of me that both shoot finely tuned 700's in 300 WSM, and there is no group on a calm day, it's a single hole at 100 yds. I've never been able to do that, though.

Fun stuff!

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

RE: Target Shooting

(OP)
The razzing started with my police officer shooting buddy who talked about his sniper rifle and bringing a quarter to cover the group and I beat him to it. Nothing is certain, a change in weather or not following the shooting protocol can open up a tight group in a heartbeat. Every trip to the range is fun and my local club range usually has some good guys there, while we can be competitive, we freely exchange information, offer a tool or a hand.

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