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intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle
5

intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

(OP)
It is in the title...
There are many challenges one can face in his job...and often in this forum there are really good tips how to deal with challenges.
But now..
How do you deal with incompetence lined with "intellectual dishonesty" happening at the office ?
Appreciate if you can share tips how to stay stoic when you are in situation where you can't do nothing about it.

Thanks

"If you want to acquire a knowledge or skill, read a book and practice the skill".

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

Just left a rubber stamp meeting that you describe very well. Bottom line is if you can't do anything about it, don't worry about it. Sort of like catching a taxi ride in NYC-just keep saying to yourself "It's only a movie".

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

"I'm being paid to sit here and decide nothing. Tomorrow I will be paid again to decide that things that were supposed to be decided today. Next week I will be paid to sit in another meeting where the things I decided are decided to have changed..."

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

You still need to distance yourself from it, and, if it is against the law, report it, or you become culpable too, employment be damned.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

Sounds like its time to brush up the resume and start seeking other opportunities.

If you have a PE in the USA, most (if not all) of the states' rules include ethics clauses. Not to mention, that for me, that type of behavior / environment would be intolerable. I would be jumping ship ASAP.

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

What's with the quotes around "intellectual dishonesty"? Is it not authentic intellectual dishonesty? Or is their dishonesty corrupt?

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

(OP)
TheTick, I think is more of the authentic intellectual dishonesty.

Say someone sends you intentionally the non editable version of a big data document while the editable is readily available to him/her just because he/she knows it will take you a huge effort to extract the data for example for doing a sanity check of the said data; at that point, especially if you are trying to do the extra mile in your job, good chances he/she simply makes you give up;

So it is not forbidden, it is not illegal - it is just playing tricks and with gray areas.
was just an example, there are many...





"If you want to acquire a knowledge or skill, read a book and practice the skill".

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

I don't think "intellectual dishonesty" is quite the right term, but I get what you mean. More like passive-aggressive bulschitt.

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

2
Use written correspondence, keep it minimal/factual, say please and thank you, and remember that it all pays the same. Direct confrontation (poor choice of words, but just walk up and ask about it) is best. It may or may not improve, but at the very least you will know what the situation is.

I used to work with a purchasing agent who would print a quote, scan it to a PDF, then email the attachment to you with no subject and no body text (no project number or anything, not searchable.) Then he would get upset if you asked him about it later, because you couldn't find it and you got hundreds of emails a day. That was just how he always did it, and he wasn't going to change. Nothing personal, you just had to deal with it.

I also used to work with an admin assistant who would staple my new project packages dead center of the page, as far down as you could get a stapler. Every one I had to pull the staple, so I could put the stuff into a binder. Some had multiple staples, only one visible from the front, so I thought I got it then ripped the pages in half. One day I got about a dozen of them dropped on my desk, so I asked why she stapled it there, does she use a clipboard, does it make them easier to stack? She said that was just where her stapler went... I asked if she could please use paper or binder clips instead, or at least staple it in the top left corner so it could go into a binder as-is. She started stapling my projects in the corner. And everyone else's were still right in the middle of the page! I found that out 3 YEARS later when a peer saw a new project on my desk with a staple in the corner, and he just got one with a staple in the middle of the page. Some people are just strange.

It is important to have no attitude other than curiosity, if they are trying to upset you then they will get bored and move on to someone else. If you delicately bring up the fact that they are behaving irrationally, and just ask about the behavior, that tends to cut through all the politics and drama. You either get a direct answer or awkward silence, either can be considered a win for you.

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

I cannot recommend Gibson's thoughts enough.

-Written correspondence is a must, it gives you both more time to get your thoughts out clearly instead of blurting out the wrong thing. It also has the added bonus of lasting forever - you will always have the proof of what was and wasn't said.
-If you have a problem with something a certain person is doing (even if you are sure they are doing it intentionally to piss you off) just politely ask them to do it a different way. Explain why you want it that way and why the previous way doesn't work. Talking nicely goes a loooong way in an office, no one likes to be talked at.
-For the example you listed, if it came from one of your direct superiors, they could have done it for the specific purpose of keeping your hands out of it. I have worked in a few offices where people thought they were going 'above and beyond their duties' when really they were just waisting valuable time on something (as interesting as it may be) that added no value to the company.

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

Some people are just pr!cks and there's not much you can do about it. Navigate as best as you can. Gentle-but-direct confrontation can go a long way; a little illumination and ventilation drives out the mildew.

Some behavior (e.g. stapling in center of page) is inexcusable. It continues because the people who can stop it choose not to.

Tick's Golden Rule of Business Anthropology:

Quote:

"Bulschitt persists because it is allowed to persist."

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

Sending you a pdf instead of the data in an excel file is intellectual dishonesty?

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

What you're calling "intellectual dishonesty" seems like the result of someone not being a team player, who is worried that you will find something wrong with what they're doing or take credit for something they've done etc. That can be a rational response to real threat or an irrational response to imaginary threat.

So: how do you deal with someone who finds you to be a threat? A mature and rational person might be amenable to a direct discussion about it, but people seldom are- their feelings and insecurities get mixed up in there and make things complicated even when they shouldn't be. A more socially skilled person, or perhaps a more manipulative one, might find a way to convince even a somewhat irrational colleague that you are not a threat, and that the interests of the company will be advanced better if you work together and share the credit. Go ask one of those people- they may have some good strategies for you. Personally I suck at that sort of thing! I'm sure that's not uncommon amongst people in general and engineers in specific even more so. We're taught to solve rational problems, so irrational ones become quite mysterious!

Do you already have a reputation for throwing people under the bus and hence are a real threat? Is this behavior just with you, or does this person behave this way with everybody? Or is it endemic in your organization, such that nearly everybody does it? All these determine how you should deal with it, and at what level (personally or with their manager), or whether you should even try to deal with it.

Of course if the suspicion is that the person is concealing fraud or incompetence that could damage your company, it becomes more urgent and feelings matter less.

Sitting around stewing about it is of course a total waste of your time and energy.

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

Sending editable data documents (I guess spreadsheets or similar) around is not a good idea if you want your systems traceable. Unless you are sharing within a robust configuration management system (unlikely).

- Steve

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

I have a team lead that will not put anything into writing. When I need information I have to go to his office where he
pulls up the info on his monitor and i write it down in my notebook. I take notes from someone else's monitor.
Sometimes he will hand scribble something on a post it note in leaded pencil and leave it for me. He still could deny writing it.
And yes he knows full well how to copy and paste text and do email attachments.

Also I get projects where I dig down into the details of what i have first to discover what information I need and then
go back to the source to get it when it should have been obvious that I would need it when the project was assigned.

Ah well such is the life in this "profession" of engineering.

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

Or, maybe the person is concerned about configuration control and doesn't want multiple copies of the document around that could lead to confusion as Steve suggests (I typed the first bit before noticing Somptings post)?

I often send out pdf's of stuff for this reason. Or if I know they'll need it to put in their spread sheet I may past the relevant section into email or something so they have the info in a format they can use without the config issues.

This may not be the case in your situation, but based on the info you give can't rule it out.

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RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

I'm definitely with Tick on this one, some behavior is inexcusable. I never understood why most people have trouble dealing with it though, to me it was simple. I was 24 when the staple incident came about, the admin assistant was probably twice my age. It is (and should be) deeply embarrassing when a young person has to ask an adult why they are acting childish, and to please grow up and behave. Not stated directly of course, but that was the gist of it.

I think molten is definitely on to something as well. I always try to be completely transparent, and my objective is just to get things done. When I got crap input and couldn't do my job, "WE" as an organization had a problem. The organization's problem happened to be that I individually had a problem, but that was secondary. When it was cleared up, "thanks for the help, this is something to keep an eye out for, let me know if I can answer any quick questions before you send the next one in." Nothing punitive, no blame, if asked about a delay it wasn't due to crap input, it was because "WE had to work through the details to make sure it was right the first time around." When someone gives you a steaming pile and you defend them against management, they go out of their way next time to get you a good work product. It is (and should be) embarrassing when you produce something unusable. Some people don't care and still give you junk. They get two shots and then the answer is "I've tried to help them out, but they are not interested in improving, and it is very difficult to work with the input I get from Mr.XYZ." They aren't jerks, they aren't incompetent, they aren't lazy, you usually don't have enough information to assign a reason, so just don't speculate. It's not your problem, it's the organization's problem. You identify it, make sure your manager knows, and then leave it alone.

I was mostly immune to the politics and the drama, not because I'm lucky, but because I made sure that everybody knew I was flat out not interested in that aspect of the work environment. It's not a high school cafeteria, it's a workplace.

P.S. I have to admit I don't really know what "intellectual dishonesty" means, first time I am coming across that term.

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

Holy crap - is this typical office workplace mentality? Everywhere? Really? Everyone so caught up in game playing and backbiting and CYA and self-protection that not a single blank piece of paper can be populated with graphite or ink without it happening in concert with drama and emotional baggage? Does everyone all need to behave like they are in a cheap rerun of 90210 in order to get their own little job done in their own little silo every weekday?

Unbelievable.

I was there. One day, I got fed up, took my access card, left it on my desk, typed a two sentence "I quit. Bye." letter, picked up my briefcase, walked out of the building and drove home, never to return.

Some things I have no patience for. My life is too valuable to be wasting it surrounded by dingbats. Glad I ended up in a place where egos are checked at the door and everyone helps each other - and, oddly enough, the harder they have to work and cooperate to help each other, the better they feel about their job, their company, their colleagues and themselves.

I honestly don't know why people can't get "there". It's so simple. At the beginning of the day, the spreadsheet or the paper is blank. Over the course of the day, you put stuff in it or on it, then you show it to other people. Then you and those other people agree on what stuff needs to be added, deleted or changed. Then you add, delete or change the stuff. Then TA-DA, you sell the stuff, make money, go home and drink beer.

Can't figure out what all the other extraneous nonsense does for anybody.

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

I guess I'm mostly lucky; I don't recall any incidences of that sort of thing at my workplace. Part of that is just proper attitude and recognition that we either all win together or die together on a contract.

The only reason I paste DIBs in charts is to keep their formatting intact through the pasting and subsequent resizing to fit on a powerpoint.

TTFN
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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

(OP)
Snorgy,

Quote (Snorgy)

Glad I ended up in a place where egos are checked at the door and everyone helps each other - and, oddly enough, the harder they have to work and cooperate to help each other, the better they feel about their job, their company, their colleagues

Guess you are lucky. Thats the way it should be. I was there once, unfortunately left that company and now I have to take responsibility for what appears to be a (bad) move I've done.



"If you want to acquire a knowledge or skill, read a book and practice the skill".

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

(OP)
By the way, I am thinking to leave too. I like what you have done when you said "I quit, bye".
You are my role model. Not kidding.

"If you want to acquire a knowledge or skill, read a book and practice the skill".

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

It might be as simple as the sender doesn't want his or hers data to be corrupted. Maybe a simple note saying it would be really helpful if they could send you the data in the "native" format as you are going to use it for "XYZ".

Sorry for my earlier comment.

The term "intellectual dishonesty" really was misleading. This is nothing more than someone not being very helpful (sometimes purposefully, sometimes unknowingly).

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

(OP)
You earlier comment is ok GHartmann, no worries.

The example I've given matters but not too much. I mean it is a tree but behind it there is a deep forest of dishonesty, in this case not a forest but a jungle with snakes and crocodiles.

I tried to fix it, talking to people directly. But I know they are playing so I dont trust them anymore.
I am tired, I am sick and I am fed up of this mentality.

Let me give you another example of this disease.

Say you want to send a mail to a certain discipline to clarify a topic.
You know that most likely your boss, an old person with white hair, will not be happy (in fact completely against) you asking about this topic. Why ? say your boss thinks that this is a too detailled topic not suitable to invest any effort in it for the sake of the good progress of project. Somehow you know your boss take on the issue, say just simply from a gut feeling.

But there is a short cut how to do your thing... If you do not copy your boss in the correspondance, you will do what you want to do, probe the subject and most likely that should be it. Worse case you say to Boss, Boss I was not aware that it would be a problem. In short you can give it a try.

Point is that somehow before sending that email there was a voice inside you that says to you : dont send without copying the boss. Because it is not very honest because it is between you and yourself. The right path ? well better check with the Boss if he/she allows to investigate the matter (maybe he/she would say yes at the end) or maybe it is a no and you have to live with - it is a more painful path but at least it was honest.

Company cannot monitor all these small things, something is left to your decision and there it comes to intellectual honesty. Because if you know Boss is against there might be a reason, coming from experience and justified and good for you and for company.







"If you want to acquire a knowledge or skill, read a book and practice the skill".

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

It seems that dysfunctional behavior at work would not fall in the "intellectual dishonesty" category at all. Rather the stealing of ideas, fabricating data, plagiarism, and shifting blame would more likely land there.

Tunalover

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

My experience says that maybe, just maybe, dysfunctional rot can be fixed from the top, but it damn sure can't be fixed from the bottom.

... and all attempts to do so will result in starting over at a different bottom.

The least unsatisfactory coping mechanism I have found is to pretend that all the sturm und drang is conducted solely for your entertainment, and to just work patiently and tirelessly to bring a little order and reason to the small patch of universe that you can control.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

(OP)
Mike,

If I understand you well, I should not try to waste any energy on that, because it cant be fixed at my level. So I just have to be patient with things I can relatively control. From the top things can be improved but unlikely to happen...

I hope I am getting it right. Appreciate your input about entertainment thanks, it helps to ease the whole frustration.

PS: sorry I tend to reformulate the message as my english is very average :/

"If you want to acquire a knowledge or skill, read a book and practice the skill".

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

The thing I've found over my 1/2 career so far is that the kind of people who used to annoy me by withholding information and brown-nosing their superiors don't hang around long. They move on/up/out and get replaced with others who live their lives on that greasy pole. The alternatives are to always be annoyed, to take their place on the pole, or to just accept that organisations have these people. Or bail and go it alone.

- Steve

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

In the words of Sade:

Keep looking.

RE: intellectual dishonesty.. a completely different kind of struggle

(OP)
or Steve jobs:

Keep looking. Don't settle.

"If you want to acquire a knowledge or skill, read a book and practice the skill".

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