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Structural Modelling Software

Structural Modelling Software

Structural Modelling Software

(OP)
I currently work for a Canadian Structural Engineering Consultant. We are looking at expanding our modelling software and I'm looking for some opinions with respect to how each program preforms overall and if it uses the Canadian Codes.

We currently use SFrame and are looking at purchasing the SConcrete/SFoundation and SSteel.

I have done some research online and found some other programs that seem to offer the same package (i.e. a full program to offer general analysis, Steel design and Concrete)

The other programs I have noted that may include the Canadian codes are:
STAAD Pro
Robot Structural analysis (AutoCAD Plugin)

I also found these programs along the way
RISA 3D
ISEWEB

I am wondering what other people use, what they thought about the learning curb and how it performs overall. Throughout school we used SFrame and I'm fairly comfortable using the basic program. But we have completed a trial with SFoundation and I didn't find it that competent.

Our office completes a lot of one off projects, but we also do foundation design, concrete buildings and steel buildings for an idea of what we typically do, along with a lot of marine work.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.


RE: Structural Modelling Software

I vote IES for general production with RISA in the hunt. CSI products if you need the 19th mode of rotational oscillation and you can tolerate clumsy input.

RAM might be a good fit for you as well. RAM Structural System is pretty slick for steel. ConcePT is, in my opinion, the best concrete slab production tool hands down.

The greatest trick that bond stress ever pulled was convincing the world it didn't exist.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Oh, and I frickin' love S-Concrete as a stand alone. Best friend a shear wall ever had.

The greatest trick that bond stress ever pulled was convincing the world it didn't exist.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

I have had the best experience with Ram for easy floor framing and lateral system. For more complex structures i would reccommend Risa or Staad. The CSI product i have used in my opinion can get clumsy and not very user friendly as stated above. That being said i did not invest alot of time in programs like SAP and Etabs so that may be the reason i never felt comfortable with them.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

We use ETABS and SAP, but one of the deciding factors in our case was the interoperability with Tekla. We are in Canada and CSI products have CSA codes for all aspects of their design except for steel connections.

Make sure to test out each product. If the software company does not have a download or youtube video that satisfies your curiosity have them prepare a demonstration of a typical project you send. All of these companies will prepare a video demonstration that can be done via gotomeeting, skype or whatever method they have.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

We pretty well solely use RISA my only complaint with it is the lack of Canadian wood design. However I believe for complicated lateral design our guy uses ETABS.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Hey guys,

I would also recommend Staad Pro.

I am also working on a project with Canadian Code but don't have any reference book.
Can you guys recommend me a good structural steel design guide book for Canadian code?

Thanks in advance.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Kulak and Gilmore. Andrew Metten has a good book too but it's much harder to get your hands on.

The greatest trick that bond stress ever pulled was convincing the world it didn't exist.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

KootK,

Thank you very much, do you have the ISBN number by any chance? Or the name of the book to search on amazon?

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Kulak and Grondin also have a book but the one I have is out of date in some of the shear aspects since the last code change. The isbn of the one I have is 978-088811-119-7. It's a black book called Limit States Design in Structural Steel Eighth Edition.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Jayrod - RISA should have Canadian wood design by the end of the year! I haven't been working on the feature at all. But, others tell me that it is "finished". Not sure if it has been fully tested yet though.

AaronKen -

I work for RISA, so I certainly should be considered a somewhat biased observer. But, my general thoughts on your search are the following:
1) Anyone who is an expert in the structural software (be it RISA, STAAD, or whatever) can make modeling in their software look really easy. Especially if it is a structure that they've worked with before. But, the key is how quickly YOU (the practicing engineer) can come up to speed on the new software.

2) My recommendation would be to contact the individual vendors and getting a Demo or Trial version of each product that is in serious contention. Then spend a morning or afternoon attempting to learn each product. Some companies will allow this easily / automatically (like the link to RISA's Demo Request page) and some will make you go through a salesperson. But, most everyone should eventually allow it.

If you do this, you should quickly see which ones are easy to use and which are not. You should see which ones have good help files that answer your questions. You may even get a chance to test the quality or responsiveness of their tech support group.

3) Obviously features and cost are important and should be one of your primary considerations. But, ease of use, quality of documentation and tech support can end up being just as important. You might also check to see what sort of training options are available. Webinars / on-line movies, tutorials, or on-site training.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

There is a ninth edition of the Kulak & Grondin book. Available in the provided link to CISC's website.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

That's the book that I had in mind -- thanks Jayrod. I'm curious to see if anyone has other recommendations. The two books that a I mentioned are, frankly, the only two that I can think of.

The greatest trick that bond stress ever pulled was convincing the world it didn't exist.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Thank you JoshPlum, can you guys also recommend a couple for the Eurocode steel design?

RE: Structural Modelling Software

I don't have any single EuroCode reference that is as good as Kulak's book is for Canadian Steel or Salmon and Johnson is for US steel.

We've relied mostly on the code itself up to this point. Beyond that we've got some "worked examples" that we got from BSI (the British Steel Institute). But, I'd be just as interested if someone else knows of a good reference for EuroSteel.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Hey guys,

Working on a channel section with Canadian Code S16-14. Trying to classify the section by using table 2 but this table doesn't mention about the channel section. I just want to check a simply supported beam, can anybody help me understand how to classify a channel section, lets say C6x13?

Thanks

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Check clause 13.6.(b)

Channels are I think are classified as class 4 section if you want to classify them.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Class 4 means you reduce yield strength or cross section until you reach class 3. But like jayrod said, apply Cl. 13.6b as long as it's a standard channel. Effectively like using a class 3 section

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Thank you guys, does this clause apply to both strong and weak axis?

RE: Structural Modelling Software

I would say yes.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

For Eurocode Steel Design, following reference might be helpful:

1. Designers' Guide to Eurocode 3 Design of Steel Buildings 2e, 2011 (ICE Publishing)

2. Practical design of steel Structures by K.M. Ghosh 2010

3. Eurocode 8: Seismic Design of Buildings Worked examples by P. Bisch et al. 2012

RE: Structural Modelling Software

No, you can't have your moment resistance be greater than My*Sy, and for weak axis bending flexural lateral torsion buckling shouldn't matter.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Did you mean Fy*Sy?
Are you talking about Minor axis bending where I have Mrz=2.0 greater than My_z=1.9?

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Yeah Fy*Sy. M.r can never be greater than 0.9*F.y*S.y for class 3 sections or channels.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Thank you so much, big help.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Hey Guys,

I have another question, which channel sections do Canadians use in their structural design?
Do they use Eurocode sections? Where can I get those channel sections info from? Does anybody have a PDF of channel sections they use?

Thank you.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

CISC has an excel sheet of all standard shapes available here.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

To be clear, I've uploaded that to my dropbox for you. It is available on their website somewhere but it's faster for me to just upload it from my computer.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

jayrod12,

Thank you very much, got the excel sheet.
Do you have something different uploaded in your drop box? How do we get to it?
Sorry I am new to the forum :)

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Nope I keep my public dropbox fairly empty. I put files in it to upload them here. Then delete them after a time. If you've got the sheet that's all that matters. It should have every section you could possibly need.

And to answer your question. Canadian steel shapes closely mimic American steel shapes. There are a few sizes that are available south of the border that we can't get without special order here in Canada.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Awesome, thank you so much.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Another question, this is still for a channel section and Canadian Code.
If I have an unsupported channel section that has an axial tension and bending, would I use clause 13.9.1 or 13.9.2?

RE: Structural Modelling Software

That depends on your situation. Is your channel braced from buckling laterally? If yes, 13.9.1, if not (which is what I suspect) 13.9.2.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

That's what i thought as well, however I was hoping for 13.9.1 because in Table 2, I am not sure where channel section falls under "Description Elements"?

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Actually, if it's laterally unsupported you check both clauses. 13.9.1 is a section strength check, where you take the tension stress, add it to the tension stress due to bending and check against your material strength. It checks the tension flange. 13.9.2 is a check against lateral torsional buckling and checks the compression flange. The tension stress helps you here and is *subtracted* from the bending stress. There are definitely cases where a given member with a large tension force could fail 13.9.1 and pass 13.9.2, so both should be checked for a laterally unsupported member.

Also, be very careful with your load cases and 13.9.2. It relies on the tension force to reduce the stress in the compression flange and prevent lateral torsional buckling. Make sure your load cases are actually conservative for that scenario if you're going to use it.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Refer to figure 2-8 in the Commentary for an illustrated table showing how to calculate classes. Channel flanges are treated the same as W-Section flanges, with the exception that channels can't be class one or two by definition due to the shape. Channel webs are treated the same way but are unlikely to govern.

I think you need to sit down with a senior person and walk through of your problem. A lot of this is pretty core material on how to use the Canadian code, and it's important you understand it properly. How channels are treated is a little weird, so it's not an unreasonable thing to have a talk about.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

TLHS,

Thank you very much but there is no Senior engineer with the Canadian code experience around me, therefore I ask you guys help here and really appreciate it.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

If you don't have someone familiar with Canadian code, who's going to stamp the drawings?

RE: Structural Modelling Software

I am studying the channel section for Canadian code and putting together some mathcad sheets, trying to cover every possible condition. Therefore there is no project to be stamped at the moment.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Does RISA do a true P-Delta analysis? I think not.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

It depends on how you define a "true P-Delta" analysis. You have to add joints along the height of the column (like with most programs). But, if you do that, RISA closely matches the Benchmark problems in the back of the AISC manual.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

STAAD does P big and little delta, without nodes throughout the columns. It won't do snap through buckling, and I've had problems with the converge option yielding results that don't match AISC benchmark problems.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

With added joints on columns I have found RISA matches the AISC benchmark problems.

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RE: Structural Modelling Software

Hey Guys,

What is the latest version of Commentary for Canadian Code?
The one I have is from 1995, S136.1-95
Where can I obtain the latest one if available?
Thanks.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

If you are looking for just the CSA portion of the coding it is available at CSA's website here

If you are looking for a steel design manual (structural steel not light gauge) it is available at cisc's website. Here

Yours is very out of date. The most recent one is 2012

RE: Structural Modelling Software

I'd like to see the channel section classification in the commentary like TLHS has mentioned (Figure 2-8), I think that would be in the CISC's website but there is only one commentary available that is for fire conditions.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

canwesteng -

I'm not an expert in STAAD analysis by any stretch of the imagination. But, during my previous life as a design engineer designing heavy-industrial structures, I learned to treat programs (especially STAAD) with some skepticism.

I would encourage you to run through the AISC benchmark problems with STAAD just to see how good their P-little delta calculation w/o additional nodes really is. And, create the model the way you would for a real building... Where your geometric stiffness adjustment might be based on an LC that only includes the gravity loads.


RE: Structural Modelling Software

TLHS,

Is this table you are referring to classify a channel section in CSA S136-12?

RE: Structural Modelling Software

It's in the commentary to CSA S16. If you have the CISC Handbook of Steel Construction, which you should if you're trying to do any Canadian steel design, it's section 2 of the book and immediately follows the code. I'm not sure if the commentary is included if you just get a bare copy of the S16 code, since I've never bought it without the handbook.

S136 is for the design of cold form sections and would not be applicable for hot rolled channels.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

That's the latest edition of the manual but S16-14 just came out and that manual has S16-09. There aren't any huge changes from 2009 to 2014 though.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Got it, thank you. They will prob release the 11th Ed soon then with S16-14.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Another question about clause 13.6
Mu has Iy in the formula under 13.6.a.ii and this clause mentions about strong axis.
I am trying to find the weak axis bending of a channel section.
If the correct way is to apply 13.6b, do I still keep the Iy in the Mu formula?
Why would the code mention only about the strong axis bending and not the weak axis?
I just need some clarification on this :)

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Clause 13.6 doesn't apply to weak axis bending. Read the start of the clause:

"Where continuous lateral support is not provided to the compression flange of a member subjected to uniaxial strong axis bending [...]"

Due to the geometry of the section, a channel bent across its weak axis isn't going to be governed by lateral buckling. It's strong in the lateral direction, when looking at weak axis bending. It falls under clause 13.5 that includes this:

"[...]subjected to uniaxial bending moments about a principal axis where effectively continuous lateral support is provided to the compression flange, or where the member has no tendency to buckle laterally[...]"

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Thank you so much TLHS...

RE: Structural Modelling Software

TLHS,

What about 13.6e, wouldn't that apply to my case?

RE: Structural Modelling Software

TLHS,

I have a simply supported beam with no lateral support, does 13.5 still apply to this case?

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Ok, finally understand how this works. Thank you so much everyone.
All I need is now the tables to see how a channel section is classified.
If somebody has a PDF of it and share it here i would appreciate it.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Hey guys,

I have another question regarding omega 1 value in section 13.8.5
I have a simply supported beam and 2 concentrated loads applied, one is in the middle of beam, the other is at the end of beam, so I have axial and bending.
I will be checking clause 13.8.3, need to calculate U1x which is using an omega value either 0.85 or 1.0 (13.8.5. b and c)
I am between the two values, not sure if I should use 0.85 or 1.0. Would these loads be considered as a series of concentrated loads?
What you guys think?

Thanks.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

If I am understanding correctly you have 1 concentrated load at midspan causing bending, and 1 at the end of the beam causing axial. then you would be a 0.85. They are talking about loads acting in the same plane when they mean a series of point loads. And really they mean a series that is extensive enough that it could be analyzed as a distributed load if looked at on a large enough scale.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

You understood it correctly, thank you so much, that is what I thought as well, just wasn't sure.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Guys,

For a simply supported T-section (W12x27.5 Flange class 1 Web 4) , I have a concentrated load applied across the minor axis, trying to check the bending, which clause applies? 13.5 or 13.6?

RE: Structural Modelling Software

You can't check use a member with a class 4 web in bending. Only a class 4 flange, and even then you have to reduce either your section modulus or yield stress accordingly to bring the flange into compliance with class 3 requirements. It's a hell of a lot easier to choose a different section.

And why are you loading it in weak axis bending? either change the orientation or choose a different section type.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Thanks Jayrod, I am now studying the Tee section, done with the channel section. Going over all possible load cases and checking everything.
That is why I was asking that case.
Why can't we check a class 4 web in bending? Does it say it somewhere in the Code? I must have missed it.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

13.5.(c).(iii) - when the web meets the requirements of class 3.

Since your web doesn't meet class three you need to go to the next sub-clause, but alas, there isn't one. Which means, no go on the class 4 web in bending.

And you can only check laterally unsupported bending for doubly symmetric class 4 sections, not singly symmetric (limited to class 3).

For the record, you should really start your own thread when you have a question. I would be the original creator of this post is tired of receiving notifications for your questions.

RE: Structural Modelling Software

Thanks again, i was going to create my own thread but you guys wouldn't get notifications therefore i kept posting here. There is also "Turn off e-mail notification" option on the bottom left so receiving notifications shouldn't bother anybody if this is applied.

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