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"Engineering" in business name

"Engineering" in business name

"Engineering" in business name

(OP)
Hi,

Can anyone advise if they are aware if it is or is not legal to use the term "engineering" in a business name in the state of Michigan without the LLC member being licensed as a P.E. ?

I know there are several states which do have a requirement like this and that the state of Michigan have statues in place regarding the use of Professional Services in business names but have not found anything related specifically to the use of the term "engineering."

Thank you,

David

thread765-130734: Use of the word "engineering" in company name

RE: "Engineering" in business name

I usually see the opposite, where someone tries to hide the fact that they are offering engineering services without proper credentials.

RE: "Engineering" in business name

If you are offering to do "engineering" you need a P.E. If you are not offering to do "engineering" don't use the word.

Richard A. Cornelius, P.E.
WWW.amlinereast.com

RE: "Engineering" in business name

See http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(swg1ye45lwdggp45j... for the exact wording of your state's law. The "or a similar term in a firm name" is sufficiently vague that your proposed name is most likely illegal. Have you even done a Yellow Pages or internet search for similar names in your state?

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

RE: "Engineering" in business name

My boss is a PE but also does home inspections and states that he is not doing engineering when he performs home inspections and takes great care to avoid implying that he does. Some jerk decided to try to get money from my boss for an inspection despite our clear inspection language but that's another story. He complained to the state board which the board basically told my boss that you're doing fine. They're only sticking point was that our companies name has "engineering" in the title and the inspections referenced our companies name. They said that this should be removed or clarified.

I would not put engineering in the title unless there was a PE on staff or you operated entirely under industrial exemptions or similar.

Maine EIT, Civil/Structural.

RE: "Engineering" in business name

You can state anything you want. The board will judge you by your actions.

RE: "Engineering" in business name

Sometimes it is more than the stat board. In my small town, to get a business license for MuleShoe Engineering I had to produce a current New Mexico license. The renewal letter every year says that the license is invalid if there is not a NM licensed P.E. in a decision making role. The local ordinance is based on the state law that says to "hold yourself out to the public as and engineer" requires a P.E. So when you are checking your state law you might also want to check your city ordinances.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. —Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: "Engineering" in business name

There are a host of companies that produce consumer retail goods with engineering in their name. They most likely do not offer engineering services. Your state business licensing authority might have as much to say about it as your state professional agency.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

RE: "Engineering" in business name

(OP)
IRStuff,

Not that I am disagreeing with you, but if the law draws a distinction by using the term "professional engineer" rather than "engineer" it seems reasonable to me to use the latter legally without a license. How is it different than a non-medical doctor using the title doctor?

The term engineering itself, as vague defined by ABET, seems like it could apply to activities which do not require a license.

Granted, at the end of the day a court is going to use subjectivity as it desires and I agree with your assessment completely.

-D

RE: "Engineering" in business name

If a girl in a bar asks you what you do and you day "I'm an engineer", you are not "holding yourself out to the public as an engineer". Naming your company "Totally Awesome Engineering" is. You can argue with it till the cows come home and you will lose.

A friend of mine started "[Insert his name here] Engineering, LLC" in Colorado in the 1990's. Somehow it came to the attention of the state board that he did not have a P.E. on staff at all, let alone as a corporate officer, and he got a polite cease and desist letter. He ignored it. He got a not-so-polite "if you don't cease and desist we will bring action" letter and he ignored that too. They filed suit and his negotiated settlement included changing the business name and paying a fine. The business failed a couple of years later.

Ignore regulations at your peril. Fail to get competent legal advice at your peril. Best of luck to you in your new venture.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. —Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: "Engineering" in business name

For a reasonable fee, you can hire me to consult and provide advice specifically tailored to make you feel good about whatever questionable activity you are attempting to embark upon.

--OR--

You can take some real time and look at real laws and codes and maybe consult with someone who can save you from yourself.

--OR--

I have lots of rope. Be glad to sell you some. I'll even throw in the appropriate knots for free.

RE: "Engineering" in business name

So how does it work? Let's say my company tests widgets. I can pay my buddy who is a PE $50/week to be on my staff and I can call my company XYZ engineering as long as I don't actually do any "engineering"?

RE: "Engineering" in business name

When I got my business license the clerk said "owner or corporate officer". I don't know if that is universal or just this town. The case I mentioned in Colorado had the same requirement.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. —Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: "Engineering" in business name

"So how does it work? Let's say my company tests widgets. I can pay my buddy who is a PE $50/week to be on my staff and I can call my company XYZ engineering as long as I don't actually do any "engineering"?"

In states like California, industrial companies are exempt.

TTFN
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Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

RE: "Engineering" in business name

They are exempt because they don't hold themselves out to the public as offering engineering services. If Boeing was called Boeing Engineering, Inc, then they would be holding themselves out as providing engineering.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. —Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: "Engineering" in business name

"If Boeing was called Boeing Engineering, Inc, then they would be holding themselves out as providing engineering."

Not particularly; one can simply look at the revenue stream and show that their main business is manufacturing, and the engineering related to their manufactured products or process. Any non-product related engineering that they perform is for specific customers that solicit Boeing's engineering expertise,

But, when it's Joe Blow Engineering, and it's clear from the paper trail that they're actually doing engineering for the public at large, it's a fait accompli.

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

RE: "Engineering" in business name

There was a case in Tennessee (similar laws) in which a superb electronic engineer had the job title "Design Engineer" in an exempt industrial setting. One of his business cards made it into the hands of the state board of architectural and engineering examiners. $1000 fine and cease-desist order. The business card was considered an offer to hold himself out to the public as offering engineering services. The company name had no reference to engineering; it was just his job title.

He later took his PE exam, passed with flying colors, and ordered some more business cards.

Best to you,

Goober Dave

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RE: "Engineering" in business name

Quote:

and it's clear from the paper trail that they're actually doing engineering for the public at large

So what actually defines "engineering" and "the public at large"? What is/isn't exempt does not seem to have a clear answer.

If a company manufactures and sells a consumer product:
Does the engineering that went into the design of the product and the design of it's manufacturing processes require PE oversight?
If a company manufactures and sells an industrial product to industrial end users:
Ditto above. Also, does this count as "the public at large"?

Things are pretty clear when a company provides a service. IE: We come to your house and inspect your foundation.
Things seem totally confused once a product and/or manufacturing are involved.
There's a long chain of steps from product conception to finally getting it into the hands of somebody that is willing to exchange money for it.
Which of these steps require PE oversight? Design of the product? Design of the product's manufacturing methods? Design of the truck that will take the product to Wally World? If a product consists as a compilation of off-the-shelf components, who has the ultimate "engineering" responsibility? The supplier of those components or the OEM that tapes them together or the user who integrates it into their plant?

Even trying to GET a PE in these enivronments is frustrating at best given the reference requirements and the catch-22 that results.

RE: "Engineering" in business name

This is really clear. Look at an automobile. The product is all about the engineering. If the car company does the engineering work in house, then no P.E. is needed (the company is selling a product not an engineering service). For the part that is farmed out, the company getting the contract to do engineering services is holding themselves out as offering engineering services and the work needs to be done under the responsible charge of a P.E. If instead of contracting the work to a firm, the car company brings in temp engineers whose effort is directed by the company then the industrial exemption applies and no P.E. is needed.

In your list, none of it requires a P.E. You can design the part, design the process, and design the tooling under the industrial exemption. Remember there is no P.E. stamp on the drawings for Lawn Darts.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. —Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: "Engineering" in business name

As Dave says, the industrial exemption is quite clear. This is from the California PE Act:

6747. Exemption for industries
(a) This chapter, except for those provisions that apply to civil engineers and civil engineering, shall not apply to the performance of engineering work by a manufacturing, mining, public utility, research and development, or other industrial corporation, or by employees of that corporation, provided that work is in connection with, or incidental to, the products, systems, or services of that corporation or its affiliates.
(b) For purposes of this section, “employees” also includes consultants, temporary employees, contract employees, and those persons hired pursuant to third-party contracts.

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

RE: "Engineering" in business name

The situation is common here: a landscaping company calls itself "Grass Engineering" because it thinks it sounds cool. They file their corporate documents, get letterhead etc., and put an ad somewhere public- used to be the Yellow Pages but of course those days are long gone! They eventually get a "cease and desist" letter from the provincial licensing body when they get noticed, so they make a quick trip to the lawyer...The lawyer tells them they have a couple options: a) change the legal name and pay a whole bunch of money to do so, or b) get their brother-in-law to be their "signatory" P.Eng. for all the "engineering" they do not intend to ever do, have him apply for a C of A on their behalf, pay the C of A fee every year (which is a few hundred bucks tops) and keep the name.

Apparently there are many such companies in Ontario...

RE: "Engineering" in business name

Makes me wonder right away if Casey Jones could be sued for calling himself an engineer. Guess it doesn't matter, he's dead and so is Jerry Garcia.

RE: "Engineering" in business name

The standard code language the NCEES flogs to state legislators has extensive language about train "Engineers" and "Sanitary Engineers" as "being too ingrained in common usage to be modified by registration acts.

The area with the biggest uncertainty is things like the Microsoft Certified Application Engineer programs. No particular education is required (certainly not Calculus, Chemistry, Physics, etc). I know one guy that got a cease and desist order for having "Certified Application Engineer" on his business card. He never did anything with it and they didn't follow up. The P.E. police really hate that one.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. —Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: "Engineering" in business name

The idiot hit on a woman related (wife, daughter, or sister, the story changed with time and alcohol consumption) to someone on the board, and was obnoxious about it. She saw a reason to get even.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. —Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: "Engineering" in business name

From the Michigan Legislature, Act 299

339.2014 Prohibited conduct; penalties.
Sec. 2014.

A person is subject to the penalties set forth in article 6 who commits 1 of the following:

(a) Uses the term “architect”, “professional engineer”, “land surveyor”, “professional surveyor”, or a similar term in connection with the person's name unless the person is licensed in the appropriate practice under this article.

(b) Presents or attempts to use as the person's own the license or seal of another.

(c) Attempts to use an expired, suspended, or revoked license.

(d) Uses the words “architecture”, “professional engineering”, “land surveying”, “professional surveying”, or a similar term in a firm name without authorization by the appropriate board.

(e) Submits to a public official of this state or a political subdivision of this state for approval, a permit or a plan for filing as a public record, a specification, a report, or a land survey that does not bear 1 or more seals of a licensee as required by this article. This subdivision does not apply to a public work costing less than $15,000.00 or a residential building containing not more than 3,500 square feet of calculated floor area. As used in this subdivision, “calculated floor area” means that term as defined in section 2012(2)(a).

Using the term "Engineer" or "Engineering" with or without "Professional" in front of it is usurping the engineering profession and, in my opinion and that of many state boards, is illegal. It implies you have qualifications that you don't possess and the clear attempt is to fool the public into thinking you're smarter than the next guy doing the same thing but without the term "engineering" in his business name.

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