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Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?
52

Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

(OP)
Hello,

I work for a mid size OEM. I feel like my work environment is extremely stressful. If anything it just gets worse as the years go on. Our company has been busy for years. New large scale projects pop up all the time and we make no realistic effort to schedule them. They just get thrown on the pile and often share the same deadlines as the projects we already have. Our manpower is much less than the workload, so we all just run back and forth between projects, putting out the fires of the day. The only way we survive is by cutting corners and releasing minimally checked and subpar designs. I would say that our overall quality of work is not that great, but luckily we haven't had any catastrophes. Our sales numbers increase each year, but our staff levels remain the same or even shrink (i.e. people leave and never get replaced).

I make due working in this environment, but it's takes its toll. I've read many threads on eng-tips and I feel like this topic pops up every once in a while. It seems like a lot of other people are in the same boat. I especially saw a lot of structural engineers complaining about this sort of thing; which shocked me. I naively assumed that companies would not skimp on designs with so much at stake.

Do you guys feel like this is the norm these days? Is this something you'd expect to see in certain industries and not in others? Do you feel like company size plays a role?

I'm looking forward to an interesting discussion.

Thank you.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Companies are in business to make money for their shareholders... if that requires putting out sub-par designs for short-term gains, they'll do it. If they get away with it time and again, they'll continue to do it. It's your choice to deal with it and continue working there or move along.

The only real issue I can see is if these sub-par designs are somehow safety related... then you need to get the proper authorities involved.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

2
In my experience most companies are owned and run by people that are there for one reason: profit. Don't misconstrue that statement like I think that's a bad thing. I don't. Not at all. The bad thing is that these folks generally have NO IDEA what is involved in the engineering process. In their mind it is some magical formula that produces an answer to their questions. As a result they see no need to allocate much time or money to it. In fact some resent having to allocate ANY to it. I have even seen this in managers who came up thru the engineering ranks.

Over the years I have come to a better understanding of their world. Necessarily EVERYTHING in the business is seen as a cost. Everything, including engineering. We can bitch and moan about never being given enough time or money to do a job right, but in the end we enable that very mindset by getting the job done anyway.

Of course every company is different, as well as every manager. So this phenomenon will be much worse in some companies than others. A few managers are intent on "getting it right" while some really do not care if its right or not as long as it gets the immediate result they're after, and screw next quarter or next year.

I've also learned that many businesses are run by managers who never really got out of the "we're on the verge of failure" mode that accompanies all startups. They see themselves always walking right on the cliff's edge no matter how good the balance sheet might be. They run their businesses that way, personally scouring each purchase order to see if someone ordered a box of pencils they might not need. For these folks any investments in engineering personnel or tools are nothing more than a necessary evil.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Engineers make machines. Companies sell products.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

2
Engineers should run engineering companies, not MBAs. Profit is necessary, but it's not the most important thing.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

An anonymously assigned star to the immediately above post.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

"but it's not the most important thing."

It is to the shareholders; if you are not doing a "buy and hold" then what happens two years from now is irrelevant to you.

TTFN
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RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

4
There's a huge difference between working hard and smart as part of a true team, and being WORKED hard for profit that is not shared with you. A lot of people, especially engineers, confuse "professionalism" or a salaried position with indentured servitude.

One thing I've noticed about engineers is that we have a poor toleration for failure. When loaded more and more, we tend to just work harder and smarter rather than letting the thing go off the rails, or slowing things down. We SAY to management that "if you cut corners too much, something is going to give and someone is going to get hurt!", but when that warning is tested, it fails to come true. We prove ourselves to be liars- 'fraidy cats. It becomes viewed as "safe" to ignore us.

Here's what I suggest: work 40 hours per week. Encourage your colleagues to do the same. If that causes deadlines to be missed, so be it- but don't let anything ship until it's done properly and safely. Don't work a second more than that until and unless a slice of the extra profit being generated from working you and your colleagues to the bone, is being shared with you in the form of either ownership or a meaningful profit sharing scheme. If that is forthcoming, by all means- work harder, and smarter, because there is a reward for doing these things- but still you cannot let dangerous stuff go out the door. These things are not forthcoming? Find another job where your contribution is better respected. Most importantly, find a place where you can get a better sleep-at-night factor out of knowing that the work is being done under conditions where people aren't so stressed and rushed that an error or omission possibly causing a big failure isn't likely just around the corner. It could be your failure- or the thing that fails could be you.

Not every employer is a sweatshop. Some do truly view their employees as members of a team, share the profit fairly, and have a proper understanding of liability. All businesses exist to make money, but not all of them are mills that grind up people and materials both in the process for the generation of short-term gains.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

6
Let deadlines go missed. Do your work at a reasonable rate, suppress your worries, roll with the chaos, let managers get red faced and scream.

They won't do a damnd thing as long as we are pulling our hair out and saving their arses.

Do good work at a reasonable rate, leave the crap in the office when you leave at 5:00.

Life expectancy today is around 29200 days. Think about that each day.


RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

2dye4- amen.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Detachment is not apathy.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

My quote from September, overheard in a quarterly review:

"We have stopped firefighting. All we are able to do now is a bit of boundary cooling".

A.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

(OP)
Great posts everyone. Thanks for your input.

It sounds like this sort of problem is the norm; to some degree. I figured as much, but it was worth checking. It’s always good to know where you stand.

The comments about us being enablers were interesting. I never thought about it like that. It’s a shame that management thinks we are in a game of tug of war; as if I am trying to screw them and they are trying to screw me back. I just come in each day and do my best for the company; like I’m supposed to. Nothing more. I’m not trying to play any games. I hate when someone tries to take advantage of me. I find it offensive and it makes me angry. I put in a respectable amount of overtime each week, but I don’t go crazy. We have profit sharing, but it doesn’t motivate me to go beyond my usual limits because the rewards are not direct; they get spread throughout the entire company. Therefore, it’s not worth killing myself; while others don’t and collect the same rewards.

All in all, my job is bearable, so I’ll probably stay for a while. When I do leave, it will be to do a different type of work; not to escape my working conditions because it sounds like it’s just as bad everywhere else.

I think this thread will be a valuable read for someone early in their career.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Most of my management were engineers, so they know the score.

But:
> Necessity is the mother of invention, so unless we are pushed to the our limits, we won't necessarily know how much we can innovate
> The horse may talk

The latter refers to a fable about a man who is on the verge of being executed, but promises to make the king's horse talk in two years. When asked later about the impossibility of this task, the man replies, "I've gotten two years of life out of this deal; the king might die before then, or the horse may talk,"

Engineers are not strictly fee for service; some of us have a certain amount of investiture, because it's a PITA to be unemployed and to find a job that we like. To that end, ensuring the success of our companies is not strictly about enabling our management, but also to ensure a steady job. I've got a great hobby that they pay me to pursue, and it would be annoying to no end to actually have to work for a living.

TTFN
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RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

No one in his or her right mind will leave a company that is run well, makes a profit, and treats its employees like real people, or even assets. ... unless the incumbent, or the company, dies.

The corollary is that almost any job that's available, is available precisely because the job is broken, or the company is broken, and no person in his or her right mind would stay there voluntarily.

The trick is to find a company that's at least heading in the right direction.

So far, all such have eluded me, or didn't want me because of all the broken jobs I've accepted.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Too many profit sharing schemes are a joke. Too little of the profit is shared. If the business isn't profitable either because it's in a poor business sector or because it's managed poorly (too much overhead etc.), then of course there isn't much to be shared- but if so perhaps it's time to look somewhere else- they're probably on the downhill slope and you don't want to hang around in that case. Find out- that information is usually available, even for a private company- and yes, you should care about that stuff!

If profit sharing is done properly, it is definitely motivating. Sure, these programs are not transparent, so you can't easily know how you are compensated relative to your colleagues, but you should have a good idea of what your putative "market value" is in salary terms. Does the profit sharing put you into the high quartile? High decile? Or does it just bring you up to average? These things matter, because regardless what your boss may say to you, your perceived value to the company is reflected by your wages. That is, unless you're one of those schmucks who don't care about money and hence never ask for more of it, in which case you'll be paid a cost of living increase and no more- others will be happy to take your share if you don't ask for it.

You're getting some profit sharing- the amount should be a guide to a maximum amount of OT you should be willing to put in to meet their increasing deadlines. Otherwise, great advice has already been given. I love the line, "Detatchment is not apathy"- it's accurate, and great advice. I only wish a few more of us would learn it!

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Cutting hours down on jobs and how to do it faster is the norm. This is one way they maximize profit. The other way is outsourcing, so it could of went that way. You could be managing people half way around the world and basically doing the same projects.

I stopped taking to heart "if a project is not done its my fault line". I will put forth an honest effort but I am not going to kill myself or work extremely long hours to get some impossible task done. Not worth the health issues it always brings to you.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Controlsdude does bring up a good point. Learn not to take criticism too personally. Whatever you do, there will always be criticism. Yet many engineers strive to be perfectionists and work to avoid any possibility of being criticized. This will result in unhappiness and unnecessary conflicts with bosses and co-workers (due to arguments about whether the criticism is fair, or who is at fault).

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

(OP)
Compositepro,

I feel like you're onto something, but what is your technique? Do you just sit there and take it when under attack? I have no problem "taking it" when I am truly at fault. However, I find it hard to keep my mouth shut when the criticism is based on nonsense. Sometimes I feel I have a valid defense.

Over the years, I have recognized the value of keeping your mouth shut and choosing your battles. Although, I should probably exercise these virtues more often.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

My technique? Save your money so you reach a point where you feel like you don't need the job. Then as you get older you start to realize how insecure other people feel and that this is often the reason that they criticize. Proving that you are right and they are wrong only creates an enemy. While large organizations often pay well, they are always bureaucracies and the only goal of a bureaucracy is to ensure compliance to rules. Keeping your boss reasonably happy is always required. Eventually you will get a real A-hole for a boss.
My goal since I was a teenager was to have my own business and be my own boss. I have always taken the attitude towards my work of 'what would I do if this were my business'? Often this was appreciated by my bosses, sometimes not. But it did allow me to learn and grow to the point where I now am my own boss running a manufacturing business. It did also require great persistence, which is another trait that you have to develop early in your life. If you are not persistent in achieving success early in your career working for a corporation, do you really expect to suddenly change when you are on your own?

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

"Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?"

Well, it's certainly a norm. It's been the prevailing situation at my current and former employer. Whether more than 50% of all engineering employers/jobs are like that I'm not sure.

Now I've had some nice pay raises on occasion (22% one year at a former employer when I was still fairly green and extenuating circumstances were in play), a few decent quarterly profit sharing cheques/checks > $1000 net, a few $ significant bonus/awards and on at least one occasion overtime despite being a salaried employee.

However, at times I've felt completely overwhelmed, possiblysmile even whined about it here before.

Certainly the last couple of years have been really bad here and it's only getting worse - I have something like 20 weeks worth of work to do before year end just on 'special orders' let alone planned project activities.

At one point for my former employer I think I was scheduled to do something like 100+ hours work per week according to the top level project plans - may have reached 120 I can't recall. Good news was they actually tried to track that - no such luck here.

Sorry, probably not very constructive, if I had higher self esteem & risk tolerance I'd probably find a different position, but for my limited abilities I make big $ here that come in handy.

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RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Companies can run both ways. In my experience, it seems that departments that focus in r and d tend to have better staffing and more lenient time schedules.

I've never seen a department pull itself out of the understaffed/unreasonable schedule model, even after implementing process improvements (workload from sales/marketing just increased to fill the gap)

I have seen it go the other way, where an organized department becomes victim to overcommitments on projects

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

" it seems that departments that focus in r and d tend to have better staffing and more lenient time schedules."

Wish it were true, but I think that's only for stuff that doesn't have an immediate requirement. Otherwise, it's like having a car full of children screaming, "Are we there yet?"

TTFN
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RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

This reminds me of this project I was on back in late 90s. I came back from this other project to office. I was brought into office with this other guy that I worked with at the time. We were thrown on this other project that these two guys had burned up most of the hours and had done completely nothing.

I kept hearing every week of this project, "are you done yet?

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

I do sometimes wonder what people’s expectations are when I read posts on this site.

Things like work smarter but only if it involves a worthwhile profit share or company shares. So how is it acceptable to work dumber for a reasonable salary? If someone at another company with a different culture is prepared to work to the best of their ability for a regular wage and you are not the company you work for will go out of business, assuming investors want to see a certain return and all other things are equal.

Clearly no one should be expected to work stupid hours on a regular basis but on the other side of the coin we as engineers are well paid and professionals so getting the job done is part of the package. By all means fight unacceptable practices but it is called WORK for a reason.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Most of the places that I have worked were actually fairly good about this.
I can recall one spell though where we all kept lists.
It was projects, with assigned priority, est hrs, and due date.
Every time your boss came to you with another one you handed him the list and asked to cross something off.
And we gave him very realistic completion dates.
Honesty is your only defense.
And never take it personally, even when they fire you.
It is their problem, not yours.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Plymouth Tube

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

I had a coworker that did that religiously; every time a manager wanted something to be "Top Priority," he'd pull out his notebook and politely ask, "Which of your other "Top Priorities" would you like me to slip schedule on?"

TTFN
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RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

6

Quote (ajack1)

I do sometimes wonder what people’s expectations are when I read posts on this site.

Things like work smarter but only if it involves a worthwhile profit share or company shares. So how is it acceptable to work dumber for a reasonable salary? If someone at another company with a different culture is prepared to work to the best of their ability for a regular wage and you are not the company you work for will go out of business, assuming investors want to see a certain return and all other things are equal.


If one company manages to motivate its employees more than another, such that it wins the competition and puts the other out of business- that's the market at work. If you're an employee of the losing company and are propping it up by your own extra efforts, maybe that makes sense to you- maybe you like the job, or the location, or are afraid you won't find something else, or are working toward advancement etc. (not much point in that case, because the company is ultimately toast...) Your effort, your choice. Just don't call me "unprofessional" if I see my labour as something of value such that I am NOT willing to consistently give more than the contracted quantity of it for free! In fact, THIS is what defines a professional- a professional works for hire. They SELL their services. People who work for free for the love of it have an entirely different name- they're called amateurs, which is a word with a rather obvious Latin root.

Employment is a contract: you get to rent my efforts for x hours per week on average, in return for my salary and other benefits. If you can find someone willing to work harder or smarter for the same money or less, you are within your rights to dismiss me, pay me a severance, and put the other person to work in my place. If I find another company willing to pay me more, or give me something else of greater value to me in return for my services, I'm free to give notice and leave. I'm salaried rather than hourly, so if there is a bit of work required to meet a deadline, attend a meeting that goes after hours etc., no problem- it's not a strict cash-for-hours deal- same of course if I take a long lunch or a course etc. But expecting 20% extra hours per week consistently without additional compensation- that's entirely another matter!

If what you want is a business partner rather than an employee, who sees the business as partially theirs (i.e. has a real sense of ownership) and is willing to put in the extra effort to make it a success, then you need to give me at least a potential return on the investment of that extra 'sweat equity'. That is exactly the situation I have now, and it is VERY motivating- it motivates me to work harder, and smarter, and makes me willing to put in longer hours too if I see an upside for MY company as a result. It's also the way to be truly respectful of professional employees, because people with high internal motivation are quite likely to put in that extra effort out of that sense of duty and loyalty even if they're not compensated for it properly. Taking advantage of the better nature of your employees is merely greedy, which is perhaps forgivable in business. Compelling it in the name of "professionalism" is beyond greedy- it's unethical and beneath the dignity of a professional.

Nobody should volunteer their time for a for-profit corporation. Period. Making a sweat equity investment is an entirely different transaction than working 60 hrs per week consistently for 40 hrs worth of pay.

Quote (ajack1)



Clearly no one should be expected to work stupid hours on a regular basis but on the other side of the coin we as engineers are well paid and professionals so getting the job done is part of the package. By all means fight unacceptable practices but it is called WORK for a reason.

I see my labour as intrinsically valuable, and certainly no less valuable than the labour of any hourly employee. It's "work", but it's "work for hire", not indentured servitude: you don't own my time merely because you employ me. If you want me to "get the job done" for you and you're concerned about the total cost, then get me to bid fixed price. But if you're hiring me as an employee, don't expect me to put in extra effort and time for zero compensation. I might do it occasionally out of a sense of loyalty or duty, but if it becomes expected then I'm going to want a return on that investment.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

I really don’t agree with you on that moltenmetal. As a well-paid professional you should produce your best work in return for a salary, why should you need a bonus or equity in the company for doing the job you are paid for? Why not take it on a stage and demand a bonus for turning up at all or for bothering to do any work whilst at work? Good grief we are professionals and as such should not demand bonuses for just doing our job. Would you expect a doctor or any other professional to say it will cost X but if you want me to put some effort it I expect a bonus?

I totally agree with you regarding working extra hours but even then only outside of what was stated when the job was accepted and terms and conditions agreed, again many top end jobs require you to get the job done, but this should always be agreed when signing the contract to take a job.

Bonuses and equity do have a place and can often make sound business sense especially in young companies where growth and cash flow are a problem, however both can have a downside and can demotivate employees. It is fine giving away equity to an employee but what happens when you expand and need more people on the same level, do you give all the company away or have the majority of employees resenting that others on the same level are treated better than them?

Perhaps unsurprisingly the most balanced views usually come from those who have who have been an employee and an employer or worked their way up through a company and see the whole picture rather than those who view it from just one angle.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

3
Maybe, his views come from the fact that you don't have to try hard to find tradesman, drafters, and designers who are hourly and for their time make more than many engineers.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Moltenmetal, right on. I like your amateur reference.
Luke, Please don't assume that it's like that in most companies. After performing engineering work for several decades in many companies I've seen quite a few great places to work but about one in 4 are as you described. Some of these have simply gone out of business because they are dysfunctional. As far as working over-time indefinitely without pay, that's just silly. Think about a conversation with other professionals or tradesmen. Ask your carpenter to build a porch for you after hours for free or, ask your doctor to perform surgery on a Saturday for free. Are they professional if they say "yes"?

Darrell Hambley P.E.
SENTEK Engineering, LLC

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

2
"ask your doctor to perform surgery on a Saturday for free. Are they professional if they say "yes""

There are lots of doctors that volunteer their time, pro bono. Los Angeles has an annual weekend event with free medical and dental care supplied by volunteers.

"It's "work", but it's "work for hire""

You are therefore declaring yourself to be no different than an hourly employee. And, if that's your attitude, then you cannot expect your employer to have an attitude toward you beyond treating you as a commodity. If you want more than passing respect, then you have to treat your job with more than passing respect. Now, I'm certainly not going to work completely for free, but I can tell you that I've not been anywhere near the top of a layoff list since being a technician during college.

TTFN
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RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

11

Quote (ajack1)

[I really don’t agree with you on that moltenmetal. As a well-paid professional you should produce your best work in return for a salary, why should you need a bonus or equity in the company for doing the job you are paid for?

Who says I do anything other than "produce my best work"? Professionalism implies a certain minimum standard of care with respect to any work you do. Doing shoddy work because you feel poorly paid is unprofessional. We're not talking about slacking because you feel you're underpaid- we're talking about refusing to work uncompensated overtime voluntarily or when it is compelled, because the work itself is of intrinsic value.

There's also an important distinction about "getting the job done": it's one thing to work hard to meet your own commitments, and it's quite another when someone else is continually moving the bar in relation to what is expected to "get the job done" as a means to increase their profit on your efforts.

What I am NOT willing to do is to give my work for free to a for-profit corporation, merely because it is expected of me as part of "getting the job done". A critical part of being a professional is learning when to say no, whether that be to issuing incomplete or rushed work, compromising on safety in design, or working for free.

Quote (IRStuff)

There are lots of doctors that volunteer their time, pro bono. Los Angeles has an annual weekend event with free medical and dental care supplied by volunteers

Lots of engineers volunteer their time too. It's laudable- I encourage everyone to volunteer, and even more importantly, to participate as citizens, in making your part of the world a better place. Check previous posts to previous threads on this topic- I always say that if you want to volunteer, there are plenty of worthy causes that need your help. But you CANNOT equate charitable giving of a professional's time with donating time to a for-profit corporation.

Some assumptions have been made about me that I have to put straight I think. As part owner of the firm I currently work for, I AM an employer. I'm actively involved in recruiting, hiring and mentoring/training engineers as part of my duties. I've also been an employee of private and publicly traded corporations with no equity stake. In fact, my Damascene conversion on this issue occurred when after nearly a year of 70 hour weeks trying to prop up a start-up company I was working for, I was cut down to 4 days per week. I suddenly realized: I was being treated like an employee, even though I was WORKING as if I were a business partner! If we came up with a major discovery, my share of the profit would be nothing more than my salary. So I went from working 70 hours per week, to working 32, for only 10% less pay- a government job-share program picked up the other half of my lost salary. Fortunately it gave me a full day every week to look for another job- but it also gave me time to start living the REST of my life again, which I had forgotten over that year. I stuck it out, out of loyalty to some of my colleagues and because I was a dedicated professional- until another colleague left and they put me back on full weeks. The "human resources" person then asked me, for the very first time, "What can we do to make you happier here?"- because my colleague's departure had made me suddenly more important to the management I guess. I made a list of possible things they could choose from: better pay, overtime, time in lieu, shares, options etc. They did none of it. A month later I had a new job which paid overtime with a base salary over 20% higher.

I'd learned my lesson: workaholism is a disease- an addiction. It's important to put yourself into your work, but it's possible for love of work to be unrequited! Putting too much of yourself into your work makes you into a one dimensional person, which pushes you even further toward work as a means to derive some self-worth. The rest of your life becomes a hollow shell. When you kick the addiction, you realize that you can STILL be a professional and have a life, especially if you hold on to your dignity by refusing to work for free.

Since that day, over twenty years ago, I've never worked a "free" hour again in my life. Any volunteering I've done has been for truly worthy causes. I've had a very successful career and never had trouble finding work. Don't get me wrong- I've worked PLENTY of O/T when it was needed, though I've cut it WAY back from those early days. But every hour of it has been compensated for, either directly, indirectly via time in lieu, or in the form of a share of the profit generated. That share of profit has gone up and down and there have been times when it's been zero- but there have been times when it has been very handsome indeed, and there have been times when I've remained employed despite not having anything profitable to do, something that I'm very grateful for and which was also a very sensible business decision (the year after that was the busiest and one of the most profitable in proportional terms in our history, and I ran the project that made us the lion's share of the money that year). Every cent's worth of equity I have in this company I have bought with my own money, though most of that money aside from a little at the beginning, came ultimately from my share of the profit. I appreciate that we give our staff the option to take their profit sharing in cash or put it back into equity in the company, depending on their needs. I've personally made some of my partners, the founders of this company, very rich indeed- their share of the profit I've generated for them is far higher than my own, but I don't think that's unfair for a moment.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Moltenmetal - I agree completely. I was salaried in 2 of my jobs and came to the same conclusion's that you did. Early in my career I was hourly, but only paid straight time for overtime. The first salaried position was before laptops, etc., but I was in the office 6 days per week and working out of my briefcase most nights and Sunday's. My wife was miserable.

Next job was also salaried, but was about 20% more pay and only had a 5 mile commute. Still, spent a lot of time at the office. Bonuses did not cover the hours spent, and were eventually (last few years there) were deposited into 401k rather than given out as pay. Two of us put in a lot of time, while the other two structural engineers always had plans for the weekends that precluded coming to work. Work was divvied up based on how much you could get done, so that kept the two of us always "busy".

After being downsized out because of a purchase by a foreign company, my last 3 jobs were hourly. I would not have it any other way.

I was still a Professional - but I no longer had to feel like I was being taken advantage of.

gjc

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

I once worked for a company, actually a division of a much larger multinational, which the management was focused on quarterly returns. I was working as a field service engineer at the time. The end result of the management focus on quarterly earnings was machines being shipped that were incomplete and did not work. It was left to the field service department to complete the machine and make it work. After a year of this I quit. several months after I left the division, corporate fired everyone from middle management up.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

What MoltenMetal said!! Wish I could bestow a double star. I'm in the MEP consulting industry and it's a death spiral - we propose fixed fees for unknown amounts of work, and the culture is afraid of trying to collect additional services fees for the ubiquitous "scope creep" which happens on all projects (we deal with architects, say no more!) since the Managing Principals fear losing future work by acting like a Professional and collecting fees for service. In our field we commonly finance the developer and architects since an number of "successful developers and architects" are the ones with the worst accounts receivable - 90 to 120 days out. Oh, let's collect on those - oops- the old "don't want to tick off the Client" thing again...Sigh.

Engineers aren't normally trained for any business management, and the class system in this field seems to be one where a good engineer becomes a partner and they are now "management". Many very good technical engineers have no business being managers, and most engineers I know in this field are neither management material, nor are they accountants or lawyers - but funny how many managing partners in my career I've run into that think they know how to do accounting or legal work just because they are a partner now. The MEP and Building Services engineering field have allowed themselves to become doormats and low fees are the only way many of the consultants are able to get more work. More work with less fees means everyone having to work 130% to make the 90% productivity targets and meet the financial numbers. Great business model. (That would be sarcasm).

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

We have a very simple model, and apply is religiously. We quote only jobs which have fixed and known scopes, and our contract have clear requirements for additional work. We apply them. We also discount 20% for early payment, and this frequently motivates clients to pay early.

We have lost some clients through charging for changes in scope, but have done so without regret. We also have a 100% payment rate within 30 days of billing, nearly 90% within the two week 20% discount period.

We also renumerate staff in exactly the same way as the principles. IE: For fixed price contracts, staff are involved in the pricing and know their bonus before they begin the work. For hourly work, they are paid an additional hourly stipend. We haven't yet found any staff who in any way delay a job or inflate hours, because they are keen to get onto the next job and potentially increase their bonus.

It may not be perfect, and I'm sure lots of you will think it foolish, wasteful, or overly simplistic/idyllic, but we are all happy.

Oh, and for those reading this after seeing the slide rule post from a previous thread: The new intern has not quit, and has become reasonably proficient with a slip stick.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

CELinOttawa: Kudos to you and your company - Wish we had more like that in this industry. I'll continue to try to fight the good fight, at least in my own little niche here, I am able to keep repeat clients and relatively decent fees, but I'm just one team in a large organization.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

GMcD: a lot of people are on the utilization treadmill. They have utilization targets, which comes down to the fact that the real work they do to drag in the next project, or to avoid leaving a mess for the next project to clean up, is not properly respected because it isn't billable. Utilization targets are another way to compel uncompensated overtime.

People selling services by the hour are of course in quite a bind- there's only so much margin between bill-out rates and salary plus payroll burden and overheads, all of which is of course beyond the control of the average employee. We avoid this by bidding fixed price on our work, such that we get to keep the gains resulting from our efficiency. We're fortunate in that the work that a lot of other people do for free as proposals, we manage to get paid for on a reimbursable basis as studies. Mind you, my hourly rate for that reimbursable work is the same, in dollars, as the hourly rate I was billed out at in the last consulting company I worked for 19 years ago, so I wouldn't call our work on studies a real money maker- but it's better than doing it for free.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

CEL: 20% discount for early payment is a bit generous!

moltenmetal: agreed that utlization targets are a blunt instrument with perverse incentives. Profit sharing is a much better model.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Glass: Did you notice that we don't wait for our money? Or waste any effort chasing unpaid bills?

There is a value to not needing to wait for the cash, and there is an added value to knowing that the client is good to pay before we continue delivering good work while what will be a non-paying client simply stalls. What is your time worth to you?

I've dealt with a great deal of stale accounts over the years. In forming this company, finding a way to minimize (or, ideally, eliminate) stale bills and partial payments was a main drive for us. I believe we've succeeded.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

CEL: Of course not having to chase invoices is valuable from many points of view ranging from cash flow to client relationships, but losing 20% of my revenue is a bit expensive. There are some client relationships I would willingly burn for the sake of 20% of the value of a single project. I am used to early payment bonuses being in the 2% range.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

3
Albeit not as eloquently put as some previous posts; I'll chime in as well:

Went on my own in 2009, engaged in civil/structural engineering consulting and have been a professional engineer since 1989. Prior to 2009 I worked 40-60 plus hours a week for various structural engineering firms over the years. Post 2009, on my own, and even now in the down turn, the pace has never lessoned for me. My wife and children hate my career with the never ending deadlines and fire extinguishing services provided by me to my clients day in and day out. And I've no one to blame but myself. This may not be true for all, but it is challenging for some of us engineers, myself included, to be good businessmen. We are "yes, I can do it" folks and find it hard to say "no" and insist on more realistic fees with respect to the time frames to do the work as you'd like and know it should be done. We don't stand firm on our contracts and change order/add requests, we undercut our competitors to get work as if the next job is going to be our last. It shouldn't be this way.

Not a clock in/clock out field,...typically no overtime pay for projects in the private sector, you'll already the lowest bidder by default having a project in front of you. Small raises year to year, having to move to get a decent raise, which if you do too much you ruin your career. Not a 40 hour a week career, and the typical private sector job will suck the life out of you and leave you with no pension or medical. We are glutens for punishment. Was hoping to make a way to a better career and life for myself on my own. However it hasn't come overnight. My wife, who used to work part time, now works full to obtain our outstanding medical benefits. While the good news is, my business is growing steadily, the bad news is, a one man show consulting firm is a hard way to go,...design, drafting, proposal and spec writing, site visits, construction administration, structural observation, RFI responses, invoicing, printing, mailing,.........you can imagine. So, still found myself working 50-60 weeks like I used to do for somebody else, but now doing it from home to be closer to my sons before they go to college. Result-Unfortunately the general family consensus is they liked me better when I was stressed out "workin' for the man" as opposed to stressed out "being the man", with my own show, working from home, harder than ever. It doesn't have to be this way.

Made recent changes this year to control my health, the pace of workflow, and mine and my family's happiness: I have to force myself to get in a good physical workout a few times a week in order to not drop dead of a heart attack at now 50, so I can keep up this pace until retirement,..........at 70. ;) (probably not joking here) Trying a new policy with my hard to please/timeline desperate "Need it by tomorrow, or I can't use you" clients, I call their bluff, I tell them all I'm two weeks out, even if I'm two minutes out. I give them a real estimate, no breaks in price because they give me $7,000.00 worth of business a year, I could sell girl scout cookies for that amount. I ask them to send me everything they have on the project I need to get started and with any luck I'll try to get started on it sooner. Every time, without fail, it will take the contractor two weeks to get me everything I need to start to do the job anyway. So, I get my price, I get my timeline, and I charge for every change, I don't even ask for approval, I just bill for the change and defend it,...and it works, and reduces the number of change order I see coming from the same contractor/client in the future.

I actually like what I do most days and that's why I keep going,....that has to factor into the equation of why we stay in this and don't drop out, go to nursing school for 2 1/2 years to get our RN certificate and make 6 figures a year, with overtime, starting the minute after you were scheduled to clock out. No deadlines to stress and dream about, clock in, see new patients everyday, clock out,...and then instead of thinking about the five jobs your juggling you can think about other life stuff, you can hear your family when they are speaking to you without just nodding and saying 'yes' like you've just had a frontal lobotomy, remember anniversaries, birthdays, wouldn't that be awesome..... (actually my wife is a nurse and would not appreciate this last passage, she works very hard and her job is stressful,....but she will admit, everyday a new day, and she does not lose sleep or dream about work)

So get control of your clients or employers, if you own your own business, don't discount your rates/undercutting your competition and lowering all of our salaries in the process. Don't discount rates, even for early payments, I'd rather get paid 60 days late than losing $2000.00 on a $10,000.00 job just because my client paid me a week early for a change. Thinking about adding late fee charges actually. If you are an employee, make a move if you have to. I here becoming a State employee is where it's at! ;) Resist the urge to stay two hours late everyday for the sake of 'the man' who isn't paying you for that overtime, or dropping huge bonuses on your front porch during the holidays, or has any intention on handing his company to you when he decides to close shop. Forget about all the looks you get from your co-workers as you turn off your computer, grab your coffee mug and head for the door at 5pm! You know they're watching you, you can feel their eyes on the back of your head, but just keep walkin',... don't look back, you've got life to live from 5:01 pm til bedtime! And it won't pay you back for missing it!

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Sorry, are we engineers or marketing?

Late fee V discount for early payment is the same damn thing if you do it remotely right.

Perception of one V the other may be good marketing but fundamentally if you set your pricing correctly it ends up being the same $.

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RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

CELinOttawa I am intrigued how and why you came up with the 20% discount idea?

As you say that everyone pays within 30 days why offer such a big discount to just get paid somewhere between a day and two weeks early? I fully understand the wasted time in chasing bad debt bit but even if you offered nothing and one in six didn’t pay you would still be better off. 20% is also a huge profit margin in automotive, obviously less so in structural.

Well done if it works for you and structural offers large enough margins to allow you to do this. I wonder how this would work or not across other sectors of the industry?

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

structuralsteelhead: Yes, for God's sake, don't take sh*t from clients.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Interesting how its 50/50 time stamped work mentality vs. paid for professional work.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

FeX32: I hope you're not implying that I have a time-stamped attitude? A time-stamped attitude in my mind, clocks out after exactly 40 hours- sometimes mid sentence at the end of the day- and I've never done that in my life. I know people who do that and it irritates me too- it shows a lack of dedication and is disrespectful of the time of other co-workers. There's a world of difference between that, and what I'm advocating.

Again I think too many people are confused about what a salaried position implies. A salary in no way implies "any amount of work required to "get the job done", for this amount of money and no more". Setting limits on what you're willing to do without at least the possibility of extra compensation doesn't make you unprofessional- it makes you realistic, and shows that you believe that your work has value.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

2
Your results might vary, but honesty is the best policy. I had a discussion with a previous boss in a similar environment (OEM, 20+ projects at once, which means 20 different kinds of messes) that went like this:

I don't need the money, but you need to pay me more, so the owners value my time more, so they listen and act when I make suggestions to fix the lack of planning and consistently crap inputs from upstream, that prevent me from working efficiently.


I guess it wasn't much of a discussion after all. I did get a raise, but it had no effect on the problem! So I cut out most uncompensated overtime, and suddenly things improved. Simple supply/demand, and basic marketing. If you are giving away your time and there is no limit on the capacity, the perceived value goes down. There is nothing you can do to increase the perceived value of your time other than stop working for free. I'd say I took a pretty direct shot at the other part of the value equation, with no results.

The only thing I struggled with was changing the way I made commitments for completion dates. But somehow, coworkers that obviously cared about the quality of their work product and gave me stuff I could use, got taken care of first and as promised, even if I had to stay late. The rest got taken care of strictly during business hours, and were assigned a priority level that matched the quality of the input. Be careful, and DO NOT make those decisions based on personal relationships.

"Oh I said that would get done yesterday? Well there were more problems with it than I anticipated, still working through them. I have other work that I can actually complete so I'm doing that now. Want to change my priorities? Feel free to pass it up the food chain and/or help expedite a response to the questions I sent out."

I did not struggle with quality of work. If I'm doing it, it is done right, and everybody knows it. If it takes too long, then next time improve the input or adjust your expectations. Or give it to someone who will half-ass it on time, and I'll go back and fix it later when the shop can't put it together.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

1gibson: exactly. Value your services, and don't make a liar of yourself by giving them away in substantial quantity for free. All of a sudden, others will value your services more too. Also important: as a result, they'll value MY services more too, and those of every other engineer.

Ensuring that your salary is sufficient to demonstrate a respect for the profession and for your contribution to the value proposition of the company is important- very important. But asking for more pay might not have gotten you what you wanted because you asked for more salary, rather than asking for a slice of the profit your work generated for them. Want to really get their attention? Ask for THAT.

Motivated people work hard because it's part of their nature. You also don't want to let colleagues down and sometimes you take one for the team- I get all that. When the extra work for free becomes consistent, it's a problem, even if your co-workers and management are the nicest people going- even if YOU are the one motivated to do it and nobody else is pushing you. If they're really nice, they'll give you a slice- otherwise, you're being taken advantage of, or doing the rest of your life a disservice.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Warning crabby mood alert...

Value our services, maybe. Or maybe they'll move the work to a "low cost region design firm" because that's on the VP's list of goals for the year. Doesn't matter that their costs end up being 80% of having a staff member do it and that 20% is more than used up by getting them up to speed, reviewing their work, fixing their work, integrating their CAD work with yours ... If you're lucky you get to stay on as a project mis manager and ride the death spiral all the way to bankruptcy.

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RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Most Canadian Provincial Engineering Associations have a line similar to this in their Code of Ethics: "Uphold the principle of appropriate and adequate compensation for the performance of engineering and geoscience work" - if the employer is calling themselves an Engineering Company and professional engineers are in the management team - they have to comply with this basic tenet of the Code of Ethics. I agree with what Moltenmetal says: if you don't value your own time and performance, you will be taken advantage of, whether it's you as the person, or the company you work for.

Kenat- I get what you are saying- I have been at firms that outsourced the CAD work to overseas to take advantage of the overnight delivery time zone effect, but once the actual total costs vs savings was measured, it was a break-even on a good day - while the company saved some CAD production costs, they incurred more higher cost time for project managers and designers to have to make corrections and changes to the CAD plans. It got to the point of the mark-ups taking almost as much time as the in house designer would take to just do the CAD themselves.

One thing about the MEP Consulting business is that it is still very local - buildings get designed and built locally, so there is very little incentive or financial sense to try to have a building meant for City A to be designed by a firm in City B a few time zones away - the local codes and standards vary widely in our business - heck the local bylaws and Code sections enforcement is different just in the 8 local municipalities here in my world, all within an hours' drive of each other. Our particular problem is that the industry as whole allowed itself to be turned into a commodity - more consultants than projects, hence the competition to arrive at the bottom first.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Optimistic thought of the day: All of the jobs which can be outsourced overseas, have been. Its not 1995 any more.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

I think this discussion illistrates my point that we all need to learn to be less emotionally sensitive about work. I don't see any real disagreements in what people are saying. There is a strong tendency to assume the "other guy" is taking the most extreme position that can be interpreted from the words. That, in itself, is a major cause of problems when dealing with people. Sometimes it is best to just let people vent.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Well ajack, here's the simple truth of our pricing was that it was pretty arbitrary. We only really calculated our costs and then worked it against a "worst case" low level of productivity. I'll explain in detail:

- Cost to run the office = $4k liability + $6.5k office + $2k codes + $5k equipment & supplies = $17.5k break even amount.
- Man hours for first year = 2x 840 (two half-time principles) + 1 x 420(one quarter time principle) =
- First year productivity set to 15%. We want this to break even, after this everything above 15% productivity becomes "cream".

Thus: $17.5k/(0.15(2x840+420)) = $55.55/hour

Quite low, thus we can comfortably set our rates at market rate. Now that the rates are substantially higher than the mininum we're willing to work for, we can offer clients early payment discounts in order to keep the chasing to a minimum.

Oh, and as for clients all paying within 30 days, I feel this is because of another part of our payment policy: any client who pays late - even once - is never extended the opportunity for a twenty percent discount again. And yes, we have lost clients that way. No, no I don't care.

Perhaps others are unwilling to discount their rates, but in this world of sales and midnight madness BS you need an angle that gets the clients excited to use you, and to pay you for your services. Eighty percent of every engagement without worrying one blink is a faster "on with the show" and the next eighty percent... That's worth parting with 20% we would have burnt through if we were honest about our time wasted chasing. The difference is I am not willing to consider the overhead BS that normally comes with running a practice "sunk costs". Those are my minutes, my dollars, my time to sell or use myself. They are all on the books, not one little exception.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Very interesting CELinOttawa, it is always interesting to see what solutions different people/ companies come up with to the same problem.

20% still seems a big discount to me, however if it works as both a marketing tool and an early payment incentive and keep you busy and making good money then good for you. Personally I take a very different view in that I am not that bothered in the length of payment terms only that they are paid on time and without costing me time. I therefore ask the customer what payment terms they would like and add a very small factor for longer terms. The reason for this is most people/ companies are happy doing what they have asked for and as long as the company is not surviving hand to mouth an extra 30-60 days really makes no difference. One downside is it does leave you exposed to a larger amount of money if a company do not pay or go into administration.

I would add that this probably only works for a small company and one where you work within a close knit community where companies are aware of each other and work with each other on a regular basis. I have never had a company not pay other than those going into administration and whilst we have tightened up our contracted terms and conditions, it is still near impossible to get money back; however it would not come close to “losing” 20% on all orders, maybe 1-2% tops.

As with so many things in life there is not a one size fits all solution. The area I live in has all the formula one racing teams except one with a 40 mile radius, so I know a good few people that work in this sector and not just in engineering roles. All are very well paid and work in a cutting edge environment and most love what they do. On the flip side all are on very short rolling contracts, certainly not owners in the company and it is all about getting the job done, start going home at five if you don’t get some overtime or a share in the company and you will be out of work tomorrow. Despite what some people on here say all the ones I know are very highly regarded professionals.

That really sums it up. What is one person’s dream job would be a nightmare for someone else, it doesn’t make them amateurs but it is not for everyone. The secret is to find what works for you and do what makes you happy, if you fail to do that you are probably better looking at yourself as the problem.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

CEL: thanks for sharing in detail your cost estimate. I have to say that I think you are missing a few significant overhead items which you will need to figure into things long term. Your OH estimate is light by a factor of 2x at least. Software, general liability insurance, training, phone+internet, computer hardware, employment taxes, accounting/tax prep, licenses, travel and marketing all come to mind. Being in Canada you skip health insurance (lucky you). I would be happy to keep my OH to $60k/yr/person. Though we do about 2200 billable hours per year, so that's only $27/hr.

Also interesting that the 20% thing is a one time offer.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Compositepro, yes, you are absolutely correct about understanding other people's points of view, especially your boss or client. It lets you tailor your behavior to work with them better. It also gets you out of the master-servant mindset which can really hold back engineers in particular. Many times we in technical fields are doing jobs which our bosses/clients do not understand, so there is a lot of scope for "interpreting" what we are told to do. For me, there is a strong correlation between the expertise of my client and the fees I am able to charge (low client expertise = high consultant fee).

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

I can guarentee that the way we run our practice will not work for most, and certainlynis not the "norm", but it works wonderfully for us.

Glass: Those OH numbers are correct. We're in our third year of operation and fourth since we decided to do this. Taxes from pay represent a great deal more of the OH in Canada. They are not my concern as they are deducted from the employees.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

CEL: You don't have employer taxes? In the US the big one is FICA which is Social Security and Medicare. Its approx 7% of salary each for both the employee and employer. There are a slew of smaller ones too like unemployment insurance. In NYC we also pay 8% of "profit" corporate tax.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

We pay a corporate tax rate, and there are some minor employer obligations (like WSIB), but for the most part the employee related deductions are taken from the employees.

Our corporate taxes are on corporate income.

I am OVER simplifying this, but it helps as a contrast to why we can do this kind of model and successfully whereas I don't think it would work in the USA.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

"They are not my concern as they are deducted from the employees."

That's what most of this topic is about.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Bugger: We never, ever, overwork anyone. Fair wages for fair work is a cornerstone (or, at least, is MEANT to be) of Canadian Engineering.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Payroll taxes here in Canada are much lower than those in the US, even if healthcare is not considered. WITH healthcare considered, payroll taxes in Canada are TINY compared with those in the US...

What CELinOttawa means is that taxes deducted by the government directly from his employees' salary are not his concern as an employer. He has no power over how much income tax or other such at-source deductions (CPP, UI premiums) are taken by the government from his employees' salary. Unlike payroll taxes, which are taxes on the EMPLOYER and hence act as a disincentive toward hiring.

Payroll taxes here are small but not zero, and they are not the only costs of employing someone. Payroll burden, meaning the total of all costs to the business as a fraction of the person's salary, includes such things as vacation pay, benefits (here that's typically a little life insurance, dental, LTD, prescription drugs etc. that are not covered by the government plans), retirement plan contributions AND payroll taxes, and for us in very round number terms amounts to something like 30% of salary in total.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Back to the original question, Yes!

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

I seriously question the magnitude of the impact payroll taxes have on limiting hiring. In engineering, the margins are so large that an employer will only run into problems with bad project management or buying work. Even that said, all taxes and other burdens on employers ultimately are passed to the employee in form of low raises,wages, and benefits. Everyone on the board wants to look good and hit their projections. Engineers will be employed if there is demand for their work irregardless of any tax.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

KENAT,
Which has been done in abundance in Engineering, especially to India.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Tell me about it. Now in fairness if they can do the same quality of work at a lower price then in a free market etc. all power to them. However, when you're the one being - or potentially being - impacted it's harder to keep that in mind.

Also frustrating is when they aren't doing the same quality of work, aren't really costing any less by the time all the overhead folk take their cut, and then you're stuck trying to make it work and clearing up the mess...

However, me belly aching on here isn't going to help with my being overloaded (if anything the opposite as I'm arguably 'wasting' time) so back to the grind stone.

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RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

2
The key is to accurately assess (easier said than done) what level of production you can sustain without being at risk of loosing your job during slow times. Once you have a reasonable idea of what this looks like, you have a benchmark that, if you meet it, you won't be afraid of loosing your job - even when you draw the line and go home for the evening. This is often a moving target. With less of this fear, you should have less stress.

On one hand, companies will seemingly let go of personnel at the drop of a hat. On the other hand, management does not want the hassle of new hires.

Also, I have found the less money I owe and the more money I have in savings, the less stressed I am about everything, esp. my job.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Terratek: the last sentence- bingo. You need the freedom to walk if things aren't going well. It also makes you more resistant to harm if you are sent out to walk involuntarily, which these days can happen to anyone any time.

Scott Adams made the point abundantly clear: all the extra effort you put into your job will be accepted. Not necessarily compensated for, or acknowledged in any way, or even NOTICED, but it WILL be accepted. Best to understand your compensation scheme up front, and not imagine things to be part of it when they aren't. If you think that your unpaid overtime is buying you job security when times are tough, think again. Your current boss may go before you and the new one won't know a thing about you. Storing up good deeds for future consideration may work with your favourite deity but it's a poor employment strategy.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

After having been laid off twice, the last company I worked for I pretty much considered myself a one person firm with single client, not an employee. I now have an actual firm with multiple clients. If you are in a low margin business, your boss has relatively little flexibility to keep you on when you work slows down.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

"Storing up good deeds for future consideration may work with your favourite deity but it's a poor employment strategy. "

May be a poor employment strategy on average but doesn't mean in the right situation it can't work out, I'm pretty sure some of the compensation items I listed much higher up in this thread are in part related to 'past good deeds'.

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RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Sometimes employees will store up good deeds and it will count for nothing when push comes to shove.

On the other hand sometimes employers will keep employees on when they really should let them go due to a down turn in work and then the employee will leave when there is an upturn.

Life isn’t fair and every case is different and what is right or wrong will really come down to what you want to happen.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

KENAT: definitely it can work out. Obviously, job performance, attitude and dedication all matter. My point was that there's no guarantee that your self-sacrifice, skill and dedication will be noticed, much less acknowledged and compensated for, and that you shouldn't leave it to chance. Some people think their bosses are clairvoyant. Others seem to have so much self-importance that they are certain that the company MUST notice just how essential they are to its day-to-day function, and how likely the place is to go off the rails tomorrow if they stop working crazy overtime. Reality can lead to some very crushing disappointment. I was fortunate that mine came early enough in my career to learn from it.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

I think the point is that working hard and being a good engineer make the same impression now that it always did. The difference between 2014 and 1954 is that it is a more entrepreneurial environment. In 1954 we could count on our paternalistic employer to give us a nice smooth career path from graduation to a gold watch at retirement. In 2014 you can expect your whole industry to implode and to join another which has been created entirely from scratch in the course of a career. My experience of declining businesses is that even when they are busy it still sucks and you need to get out. Having an MBA boss makes this whole process worse, which is why engineers should take control and start their own businesses.

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

Having an MBA CEO is certainly a single-edged sword. Engineering tasks are subject to so many variables that it's impossible to monetarily quantify what they add and subtract from the bottom line. That's why (in my experience anyway) the MBA (and non-engineer) top executives don't like engineering and tend to stay out of that department. They don't trust what they don't understand!

Tunalover

RE: Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?

"I naively assumed that companies would not skimp on designs with so much at stake."

In my experience this is an issue of the management culture. I have worked for companies who were operated by sales people, who never gained any useful appreciation for risk and the time required for accurate design work. The Engineering department gets pushed around to respond to the demands of the sales world and corners get cut.

Of course doing a job correctly involves planning, risk assessment, and other things. If your company's sale / design process does not plan, does not assess how schedule and technical risk conspire together, and does not consider current workload, then I would develop a strategy to manage this (with the best interests of the company in mind - not your own laziness) that reduces your stress and makes life manageable. For example, carry a notebook everywhere and note each fire drill, what you did to resolve it, how much time was spent on it, and roughly what caused the need for the fire drill. At some point you might be able to present to higher management how much time is spent chasing problems vs. completing designs. I'd also start shopping around for a company that has a more balanced understanding of execution.

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