Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
(OP)
I recently visited the site of a new building which I designed to perform a construction observation of
wall reinforcement on an ICF building. I noticed a lot of honeycomb in the recently poured footers and I remarked that the walls need to be poured much better than that or I will reject it. I like to remove some foam in random spots to make sure the pour was done properly on ICF walls. The crew was also inexperienced in pouring icf walls so I had legitimate concerns. Anyway, the owner/contractor stopped communicating with me after I asked in and email when is the next pour? He has since told me, thanks for the design, but we are fine with inspections by the building department, we'll call you when we need you. I asked if it was ok for me to visit the site and photograph construction progress for my records (in an email). And now I'm getting no response.
I'm not sure how to handle this one. Do I have any legal rights regarding the ability to visit the site if it's not explicitly stated in the contract? Should I just raise my concerns to the building department and let it go?
Thanks in advance for the help.
wall reinforcement on an ICF building. I noticed a lot of honeycomb in the recently poured footers and I remarked that the walls need to be poured much better than that or I will reject it. I like to remove some foam in random spots to make sure the pour was done properly on ICF walls. The crew was also inexperienced in pouring icf walls so I had legitimate concerns. Anyway, the owner/contractor stopped communicating with me after I asked in and email when is the next pour? He has since told me, thanks for the design, but we are fine with inspections by the building department, we'll call you when we need you. I asked if it was ok for me to visit the site and photograph construction progress for my records (in an email). And now I'm getting no response.
I'm not sure how to handle this one. Do I have any legal rights regarding the ability to visit the site if it's not explicitly stated in the contract? Should I just raise my concerns to the building department and let it go?
Thanks in advance for the help.






RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
IBC 2012 1704.5 Structural observations.
All of the observation clauses say "When so designated by the registered design professional responsible for the structural design." As I see it *you* are designating yourself, "the registered design professional responsible for the structural design" as the "observer" as afforded by IBC 2012 1704.5
I would tell them you are afforded the right to observe your structure per the IBC 2012. If they say "no", to the building officials I would go.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
The greatest trick that bond stress ever pulled was convincing the world it didn't exist.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
If the EOR has signed Schedule C-2 and is unable to perform the necessary field review, he is required to notify the authorities who will shut the job down until another professional engineer agrees to accept responsibility for field review.
BA
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
If you have not been contracted to do any observations, and cannot be there 24/7 to see what is REALLY going on here, do you really want to take on the liability here? I would say no. Definitely no.
I would write a letter to the jurisdiction putting the onus of the burden on them as they should have inspectors to perform those tasks. Whether they do or not is a moot issue here. They should. If they refuse to do so, then, in writing, formally remove yourself as the engineer of record citing the lack of professional workmanship as the issue. You do have the right to do that regardless of what the jurisdiction may tell you.
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
Maine EIT, Civil/Structural.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
2012 IBC
"1704.5 Structural observations.
Where required by the provisions of Section 1704.5.1 or 1704.5.2, the owner shall employ a registered design professional to perform structural observations as defined in Section 1702.
Prior to the commencement of observations, the structural observer shall submit to the building official a written statement identifying the frequency and extent of structural observations.
At the conclusion of the work included in the permit, the structural observer shall submit to the building official a written statement that the site visits have been made and identify any reported deficiencies which, to the best of the structural observer’s knowledge, have not been resolved.
1704.5.1 Structural observations for seismic resistance.
Structural observations shall be provided for those structures assigned to Seismic Design Category D, E or F where one or more of the following conditions exist:
1. The structure is classified as Risk Category III or IV in accordance with Table 1604.5.
2. The height of the structure is greater than 75 feet (22 860 mm) above the base.
3. The structure is assigned to Seismic Design Category E, is classified as Risk Category I or II in accordance with Table 1604.5, and is greater than two stories above grade plane.
4. When so designated by the registered design professional responsible for the structural design.
5. When such observation is specifically required by the building official.
1704.5.2 Structural observations for wind requirements.
Structural observations shall be provided for those structures sited where Vasd as determined in accordance with Section 1609.3.1 exceeds 110 mph (49 m/sec), where one or more of the following conditions exist:
1. The structure is classified as Risk Category III or IV in accordance with Table 1604.5.
2. The building height of the structure is greater than 75 feet (22 860 mm).
3. When so designated by the registered design professional responsible for the structural design.
4. When such observation is specifically required by the building official."
Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
This is a very typical clause in contracts where I am from. Based on the IBC, if your contract with the owner/contractor does not include inspection/special inspection services, than you are still afforded the right to observe construction as you deem fit. Observation does not beget inspection, and does not relieve the contractor of his/her inspection responsibilities. This is very clear in the IBC.
Now, if your contract as the EOR also includes inspection work, you have to resolve this issue before you ever step foot on site again.
Unless your county, city, state, etc. removed the model building code (IBC) structural observation clauses or modified them in such a way that causes a problem for you, that is my 2 cents.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
My point is that the EOR may decide to observe their structure for any reason (When so designated by the registered design professional responsible for the structural design) without his or her visit being misconstrued as "inspections".
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
On a recent project, the wind velocity was approx 110mph using the wind maps in the code.On using these maps I always round-up to the nearest high value as they are really difficult to pinpoint exactly. Nothing wrong with this approach, except, a year later I found a wind site based on zip code/coordinates which indicated the wind speed as approx 105mph.....so be extra carefull in establishing the wind /seismic values especially if they might trigger the requirement for an independent inspection.
Unfortunately, upfront the stuctural engr does not typically know who the fabricator or construction contractor is and has little control over who is selected and wheather it is based on competency or the lowest bid price.More and more, the lowest price bid holds allot of sway.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
So you don't visit your construction sites?
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
Second, you should have had in your contract with your client that you would carry out inspection, but on a "rational sampling basis", where you make it clear that not everything will be inspected. Do you have contract? What did it say?
Third, it sounds like you have an irresponsible client. Have you worked with that client before? You should try to explain to your client why it is essential that you carry out the inspections, but if the client remains thick-headed about it, you will have to go to the building department a.s.a.p. and advise them of the situation. The send a letter to your client that you cannot and will not accept responsibility if you are not permitted to carry out inspection in accordance with professional standards. You have to make up your mind that you will loose that client, but better to do that than compromise your professional integrity.
I assume that to get a building permit, you signed a form saying that you would carry out periodic site inspections. So bring that to the attention of your client.
It is not the building department's role to carry out structural inspections, despite what the public may think. Building departments generally have legal protection embedded in municipal bylaws protecting them from any liability. So do NOT rely on the building department to carry out structural inspections. If the building collapses, most of the blame will fall on you; the building department will get off scott free
You should consider discussing with your professional licensing body what they think the proper course of action is for you to take.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
I'm surprised to hear there are so many areas that still don't require this. There have been a rash of collapses traced back to insufficient field verifications.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
BA
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
So, I don't see how to remove myself as EOR based upon the client's desire to keep me off the site, which has now been confirmed in an email from the client. Construction site access will be part of my contracts in the future.
As the EOR, I have no legal right to observe construction of my work. That makes no sense to me.
It looks like a discussion with the building department is next.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
Financial adjustments may be required if you have been paid for services which you cannot render.
BA
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
If they don't want the inspections, simply state that you cannot sign off and certify the project. Some jurisdictions require this, especially if you are under "special inspections". Additionally, some banks require the SER to sign off. A certification letter is also a good bargaining chip for the current owner to sell to a new owner.
If that fails, then they are on their own. I wouldn't lose sleep over some honeycomb, but if there was something that was very concerning, I would sneak onto the site and inspect myself without their permission. If its ok, then you can rest easy, if there is a problem, show the owner / building dept. If there is a "life safety" issue, make a big stink and get the county involved.
I had a project where the 3rd floor balcony rails were installed improperly and would come out of the brackets very easily. One letter to GC, owner, architect and building official got that fixed right away. And, they kept us coming out.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
I agree with M^2, report it and remove yourself from the situation. After you report it I bet you may be pleaded with to come back and look at their walls.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
And I'm not getting shot to sneak on to this site to make myself feel better. It's really starting to look like I need to walk away from this one.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
Under the IBC the EOR can.
Per the 2009 IBC
"1704.1 General. ...The registered design professional in responsible charge and engineers of record involved in the design of the project are permitted to act as the approved agency and their personnel are permitted to act as the special inspector for the work designed by them, provided those personnel meet the qualification requirements of this section to the satisfaction of the building official..."
Per the 2012 IBC
"1704.2.1 Special inspector qualifications...
The registered design professional in responsible charge and engineers of record involved in the design of the project are permitted to act as the approved agency and their personnel are permitted to act as the special inspector for the work designed by them, provided they qualify as special inspectors."
Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
I think we even have a general note stating that if the EOR is not involved with any CA, or construction review then we will not be held responsible for from any claim arising from the contractors performance to meet the design intent of the CDs.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
If you do have a "right" to visit the site, put the denial of such in the letter to the CBO.
On a side note, I know that the IBC does not permit the Contractor to be his own Special Inspector (a clear conflict of interest). What is the law on projects where the Contractor is the Developer and is the Owner? Who protects the public interest? Is it left to the CBO? I'm sure the contractors think they can police themselves, but public safety drops to number two or three on the list when a contractor's profit $$ are involved.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
But JLNJ brings up the point that I have issues over and that is, does the EOR have a right, per code or law, to visit the site during construction? It will be in my future contracts, but it also seems like a given. If I designed it then I should be allowed to see it built. Maybe it's in a state statute?
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
I would make sure I get something in writing from the GC saying you are not to visit the site, and then send a letter to the various parties, including the Building Department, noting as much.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
The whole business and meaning of engineering has gotten so bastardized and commoditized that an old goat like me hardly recognizes it any longer. Almost everyone is a professional, if they’ve done the same assignment twice: drafted the same simple beam twice, they’re an engineer; used the same hammer twice on a job, they’re a builder, and if they have a P/U truck they are a GC; or have some ceement slop on their jeans, they’re a professional ceement contractor. There’s no need to know what you are doing any longer, to have some experience at what your are doing, you can find it on the internet, you can watch a video, and you’re an expert. You can model it on the computer, in BIM, and get it to dance for you, never mind it can’t practically be built. You have a double problem here, in that the GC and the owner appear to be one in the same. They bought a structural design, and now you should get lost. You have to hope they don’t want a hunk of crap as their final structure, and then that you can defend your design if something does go wrong.
I would list the defects that you saw, before you were more or less kicked of the site. I would include a copy of the e-mail telling you to stay away, and I would advise the BO, by letter for the record, with a copy to the owner/GC that you are not (not allowed to) observing the work, so they probably should pay a little more attention on their code inspections. Then, cross your fingers, hope the owner cares enough to do a good job, ...and get lost. They probably can keep you off the site if they really want to, and that’s probably not worth the fight, at this time; as long as you are on the record as to your involvement after providing the design. You may not want them as a client in the future. And, you may want to rework your contracts to better define your rights, duties and obligations. While that’s not the fun part of engineering (fun these days?) it may be just as important as doing a quality engineering job.
Our attorneys and insurers tell us there is a significant difference in observation (you’re looking around to assure general conformance) and inspection, where you might be on the hook for anything you inadvertently missed or you might be assuming responsibilities for the GC’s work and obligations, which you shouldn’t assume. The attorneys hope this stuff ends up in court or arbitration, that’s their full employment program; insurers hope nothing goes wrong, but are happy to split the cost three or four ways and/or subrogate, and they just add the costs to our next premiums. It used to be that no one knew your design and intent better than you did, as the EOR, and that logic still holds true. But, if we can get four more layers of companies/people involved in the loop, that means that the wronged party has four more deep ‘pockets to pick’ if something goes wrong.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
"be present at intervals appropriate to the stage of construction to become generally familiar with the progress and quality of the work and to determine if the work is being performed in a manner consistent with the construction documents and the code."
This certification is required for buildings greater than 35,000 cubic feet. One and two family dwellings are excluded from this part of the code.
So for most commercial buildings I add site visits to my proposal as I know they are going to fall under these requirements an ultimately require me to sign off on the building once it is complete. However, one and two family dwellings I might not necessarily provide this service as this would be covered by the building official. If the owner requests the service I will adjust accordingly.
I have had instances where the client asked for the sign off on small projects and I refused because this was not included in my contract and I did not visit the site during construction. This never goes over well.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
That is precisely the legal advice that is typical where I am in the Baltimore/D.C. area.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
That being said, it also raises the question, "What did I miss?" And a lawyer would ask ... "Since you found that error, why didn't you check further?"
So, unless I am specifically contracted to do so, I stay the hell away. The good Samaritan clause does not apply to you here. You may have the rignt to "observe", but you do not have the "obligation".
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
If not, how are you under IBC jurisdiction and no special inspection requirements? (Unless the provision to waive them for minor work was granted.)
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
I designed it as a commercial building.
Even as commercial there would be no special inspection required for it that I am aware of. ICF walls with wood trusses and nothing crazy.
I hear you Mike. I typically try to create a really open relationship with the gc during construction and probably put myself out there more than a lawyer would recommend. I did inform the "owner/contractor" but the "contractor/owner" is not concerned. So I will contact the building department and convey my concerns.
Unfortunately, the building department here could start a longer thread than this.
And thanks to everyone for paying some attention to this situation. I really appreciate the advice.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
That said, these people the OP are dealing with warrant a more careful approach.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
We have slowly (finally!) seen more and more CBOs ask for inspection statements, inspections, and reports (here in the midwest) even though the requirement for statements and inspections has been in the code for a while now. Locally there was a tall masonry wall which fell over during construction (the verts were never placed in the wall) and that triggered the regional CBOs to ask the design professionals for their special instection statements.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
1) i think you're not responsible for inspection, that's someone else's responsibility; and their responsibility to co-ordinate inspections so they can inspect critical elements of the structure.
2) you might inject your personal opinion on how things should be done, increasing cost.
3) you might be "hiding" some short comings of the design with these "observations" by objecting to how they're doing something ... but probably not really ... any change would be a drwg change. mind you i'd've thought it was a good check to have the guy who designed it look over his creation to see that it was how he expected it to be.
4) i find it odd that you "persona non gratia" at the site. i would file something on record of the state of affairs.
5) it'd be interesting to see if you could get the guys who are inspecting the work to invite you to the site during their inspection ?
another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
Again, I was only going to perform construction observation, and it was minimal per the contract.
rb1957 - I had the thought of showing up with the county's inspector, but the letter that I'm going to write will likely end up causing enough problems with
the owner/contractor. I was a hero, as far as the design goes, until I noticed the crappy footer.
And just to add some color to the thread, while on site, after commenting on the lack of consolidation and while checking some rebar placement, the project manager yells down to me "you know structural engineering is not an exact science!" I didn't go into why he is the reason it's not an exact science, but another red flag for sure.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site
Even worse, what his snarky remark says to me is that he doesn't give a rats behind about the ACI 117. I hope this works out for you, vato.
RE: Owner/Contractor doesn't want me on site