Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
(OP)
I'm a graduate structural/bridge engineer learning the ins and outs of the UK construction industry as I go along. I wasn't sure if it is obvious, but I find it difficult dealing with draftsman, particularly the senior ones. I think by looking at the focus on my posts here, anybody could tell I'm a very technical guy. In this post I do not mean to generalise all draftsman like this.
Some days I can find it exhausting looking after particular senior draftsman who often try to dictate the way a particular drawing is going, and certain details either myself or senior engineer has suggested. I absolutely understand they have far more experience than myself, and will often know "what seems about right". There are many instances where a draftsman will suggest something, and my senior engineer is out of the office where I am unable to give a valid explanation as to why his/her solution is not valid. This typically applies to smaller non-structural things like manhole chambers, ducts and the like, which probably require a good few years more experience on my part. There are times where I feel unrespected by certain draftsman, maybe I do not deserve this respect yet but I find it difficult to challenge them on the basis that they have many years more experience than I.
Has anyone ever felt/feeling like this? Is there anything I can try to improve the situation? Is it a problem of being more assertive, or is it just part and parcel of the early days? Do I need to change my attitude etc. Even if I were to be assertive, I would likely get played back at and don't want to look like a stand-offish office a*hole. Thanks for any suggestions.
Some days I can find it exhausting looking after particular senior draftsman who often try to dictate the way a particular drawing is going, and certain details either myself or senior engineer has suggested. I absolutely understand they have far more experience than myself, and will often know "what seems about right". There are many instances where a draftsman will suggest something, and my senior engineer is out of the office where I am unable to give a valid explanation as to why his/her solution is not valid. This typically applies to smaller non-structural things like manhole chambers, ducts and the like, which probably require a good few years more experience on my part. There are times where I feel unrespected by certain draftsman, maybe I do not deserve this respect yet but I find it difficult to challenge them on the basis that they have many years more experience than I.
Has anyone ever felt/feeling like this? Is there anything I can try to improve the situation? Is it a problem of being more assertive, or is it just part and parcel of the early days? Do I need to change my attitude etc. Even if I were to be assertive, I would likely get played back at and don't want to look like a stand-offish office a*hole. Thanks for any suggestions.





RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
From reading that sentence it appears that your default is that anything suggested by a mere draftsman is automatically invalid.
That is very possibly part of the problem right there.
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
I went to a processing plant once to try to understand their maintenance needs. I took a REALLY green ChemEng with me. At the start of the meeting this kid hung on every work the plant manager said. Wrote most of it down in his notebook word for word. At the first break the kid sidled up to the manager and asked him where he went to school. The plant manager said "Casper [Wyoming] High School, but I didn't finish". The kid felt like he had been duped. After that point he was rude and nasty to the manager and would not let him finish a sentence. At the next break I sent the kid to sit in the car for the rest of the day. That evening I sent him back to the office where he was subsequently fired.
The point of sharing that story is that these senior draftsmen may not have your Sterling education, and they may have never even heard of a LaPlace Transform, but they know stuff. They are proud of the stuff they know and would be happy to share their experience with someone willing to listen. NO ONE will think less of an engineer who cultivates that knowledge. What I've done in similar circumstances (assuming your need to be the smartest person in the room has not destroyed any chance of a relationship) is:
- TALK to them. Buy them a cup of coffee. Take them out for a beer after work. For gods sake learn all their names.
- In an informal setting ask something like "I've never seen manways [or whatever] configured the way you did on the Smith job, where did you come up with that?" And then listen to the answer. Ask questions that indicate you want to know the answer not that you are testing them.
- Most importantly, don't pretend to know more than you do know. If they ask you about something the boss put on the drawing that you are not familiar with, say "I'm not sure why he put that there, what is your issue with it?" Listen to the answer, if there is a code issue with the way they want to do it say "wouldn't that be a problem with the code on ...?" If there isn't a code issue then tell them you'll take it to the boss now that you understand the issues.
I've done all of those things and often found that the experienced guy has picked up some stuff that I hadn't and that blending practical experience with theory always ends up with a better answer than either by themselves. I've also made some of the best friends of my life that way. Many of them regularly bring ideas to me that other engineers have shot down to get me to support them. Sometimes I do, other times I'm able to explain the problem guy-to-guy without the engineer-to-slug attitude.David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
I missed out a part of that sentence, where a senior engineer might get me to sketch out something they've proposed and I'd get it drafted up. The main difficulty is where he/she is on site, and I have to sort out a drawing. I do listen to draftsman and have a huge amount of respect for them, but find it tough defending details where different engineers may have different solutions.
For example, take GRP formwork vs Omnia planks during initial design. I'd suggest one over the other, and end up having a conversation about various advantages and disadvantages of each.
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
NO.
You need to shut up and listen.
... especially to old farts who have been working since before you existed.
You also need to learn softer phrasing than 'not valid'. It's a little harsh and does not admit any possibility of there being any merit at all to someone else's viewpoint.
Those drafters are not your serfs. They are your partners in producing commercially significant graphical documents that are complete and accurate and easy to understand and, especially, difficult to misunderstand.
That last is not an easy skill to acquire, and chances are that you don't yet know squat about it. Whether you like the drafters personally or not, you need to afford them a lot more respect than seems apparent from the small sample you have provided here.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
New guy; Thinks he's all that.
Crusty Drafters; Seen it all, including a bunch of hot new engineers every hiring season.
Mix together in close quarters.
I've had this done to me and counseled younger engineers when it was their turn. This is how they test you. If you keep your sense of humor, show them some respect, you'll do fine. If you fight them every turn, belittle them, and complain, well they've seen that, too.
Sometimes you're right and sometimes they're right. These people can help you or make you look bad. Make your choices and take your chances.
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
My problem was they had one year of experience 16 times, while I had 33 years of varied experience from commercial, residential, institutional, light industrial, and heavy industrial (manufacturing, mining and mineral processing, and pulp and paper). This companies focus was on pulp and paper, and at the time I started their I also had 17 years in that particular industry; so I was totally in my element.
Another problem here (WI, USA) is that we have a 2-year technical school system that really instills confidence into their technical school grads. They had a steel and a concrete class - so they know everything.
I remember starting work with my BSCE and being terrified that engineering school had taught me a lot, but also taught me how much I did not know yet. I used my first paycheck to buy a book about Building Construction so I could better grasp terminology and interaction methods that had never been discussed in the separate design classes that I had taken.
So yes, you can learn from some of the many of Drafters with more experience. But an equal number are just arrogant A-holes that will never give you any respect.
gjc
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
But ...
They have the experience (as one writer put it elegantly up above) of "doing the same thing (in only one small part) of the real world for 15 years", while you have the "classroom experience" of learning from many thousand other people doing different things theoretically and practically worldwide. Which is more valuable? Both. Which is more important? Both.
YOU have to blend the two together (his experience with what should be your knowledge) to get the best solution. But YOU have accepted the responsibility of deciding the final solution - under your boss's fiscal and corporate responsibility. THEY have decided to remain at their position and have decided to decline the opportunity to claim that responsibility for the decision.
But your acceptance of a position - and the higher pay that normally comes from that responsibility - where you have the responsibility for the decision does NOT make you always correct. It just makes you always responsible. you have made great strides by recognizing your discomfort, your unease at contradicting or disagreeing with a statement/recommendation/action by somebody older than you.
"More experience" is sometimes also be "more experience in making the wrong decision." Or making a poor decision because of corporate history (or past projects) where that hard-earned experience is no longer applicable to the current project or future projects. The government (and military and government regulators in every department) in particular, is very fond of legislating elaborate "rules" and quoting specification based on old laws and old projects that restrict future projects and designs. Despite changes in the real world.
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
In the MCAD world, there are lots of drafter/designers who gained their positions with 0 to 2 years post-high school training and a fair amount of raw intelligence and/or computer savvy. As they age, many of them get very territorial over their positions. Many also have a resentment of high-falutin' book-learnin'.
Folks love a good can't-learn-that-in-school folk tale. Validates the masses, it does. There's a few good ones, and a few true ones. Good for a chuckle in the break room.
But, for every one of those, I go through ten things-you-DIDN'T-learn-in-school-but-shoulda episodes. These don't get remembered, repeated, or become legends.
I have deep respect for skilled tradesmen. I have learned much from many, and am grateful for what they have taught me. I have no respect for sclerotic trolls defending their shrinking patch of browning turf.
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
The poorest performing young engineers are always the ones that think they know a lot more than they really do. NEVER get out of the attitude of looking at every day as another learning opportunity.
There is a VERY BIG difference in this phase of your education from those previous: the sources of your knowledge now are all people that are actually doing it, not talking about it. I got my M.E. degree 35 years ago and I have worked with a lot of folks. If you were to ask me who was the best engineer I ever worked with I could name him right now - and he DID NOT have an engineering degree! I think of the things I learned just by watching that man on almost every project.
Quit worrying about appearing ignorant or inexperienced. You are both! Admit it, embrace it, use it, wear it! That's who you are.
You want those guys' respect? It won't come from impressing them with your knowledge. It will come only from impressing them with your LOVE of knowledge, real knowledge from real experience in the real world, and your willlingness to learn from any and all sources. Go out of your way to incorporate absolutely as many of their suggestions and comments as possible. Prove to them by your actions that you value their wisdom and want to learn from them Do that and they will be the first to cut you some slack and even come to your defense if needed.
Trust me. I know. I've been on both sides several times.
Now, read this again.
One more time.
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
ctopher's home
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RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
In addition I have respect for this particular profession because they are often working standing not sitting and it is physically demanding; and we are happy to make use of their drawings without realizing all the huge efforts they invested. Looking at what they do sometimes silently - all day long gives really a sense of humility.
"If you want to acquire a knowledge or skill, read a book and practice the skill".
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
Generally speaking, you should know why you're putting together designs and details in certain ways. If you can't explain why you're doing them that way, then it means you don't understand your design. You're starting out, so that's going to happen to you on occasion, but when it does your response should be to do research or ask people so that you do understand.
If you have a good reason, you can explain that reason to the person proposing an alternate solution. It also means you can decide whether it's better than an alternate. Sometimes the good reason can be that you're using a standard well tested way of doing something and there just isn't time or budget to do something different. You'll also have situations where you have to tell someone that their idea is good, but it's too late to do it on this project.
If someone makes a good faith effort to propose something and I don't think it's a good idea, I'll happily spend five or ten minutes explaining why I think the existing solution is better. It may turn out that my reasoning is wrong and they have a rebuttal. Either way, we both come out knowing more about what we're doing.
If you're in a situation where you're implementing someone else's work and you aren't fully sure why something was done a certain way, be honest about it. Tell the guy, "This is a markup from my boss. I'm not sure why he decided to do it that way but he's not here so we'll just have to draft it up like this for now," then ask your boss why it was done that way when you get the chance. You'll get a lot more respect out of people by being honest than trying to argue about something you aren't sure of.
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
Let me ask how much drafting have you done either during study or working?
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
But the problem described is that hes supervsing the implementeation of the work by SENIOR ENGINEERS - and when the draftsman deviates from the design the SENIOR ENGINEER is often not around. At these times hes not able to say exactly why the alternative design cant be used!
SO: My advice is that you could also discuss this with your senior engineer (remember to have some resent valid examples - not just loose talk). Make sure that you are not overly critisising the draftman but make it more a question of authority and trust - and maybe you will also get some menoring right there. This i would only recommend if talking to the draftsman does not seem to help. Maybe you should try the same angle with the draftsman. Ask him why the small modifications are introduced try to buy into it instead of creating a confrontation.
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
Where do you get that?
"I find it difficult dealing with draftsman, particularly the senior ones."
"particular senior draftsman who often try to dictate the way a particular drawing is going, and certain details either myself or senior engineer has suggested."
Seems pretty clear he's talking having problems with more than just stuff from a senior engineer.
TTFN

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RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
Thank you very much for all of your replies. I've read through all of them and want to address them when I have time due to moving out etc, as many of them have contained excellent advice.
I think some of the earlier posts were difficult for me to stomach, since starting out I've felt probably frustrated how little I know despite being an engineer in the early days. I think it pretty much comes down to communication, a skill I could probably do a lot of improvement in. Chilling out probably wouldn't hurt either! And accepting in the early days of course I'm going to know sod all!
Thanks again, I will summarise the things I've learned from this thread soon.
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
2. paragraph: "Some days I can find it exhausting looking after particular senior draftsman who often try to dictate the way a particular drawing is going, and certain details either myself or senior engineer has suggested. I absolutely understand they have far more experience than myself, and will often know "what seems about right". There are many instances where a draftsman will suggest something, and my senior engineer is out of the office where I am unable to give a valid explanation as to why his/her solution is not valid. This typically applies to smaller non-structural things like manhole chambers, ducts and the like, which probably require a good few years more experience on my part."
But then again, the man is still following the tread - he might be able to clarify himself.
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
"But the problem described is that he's supervising the implementation of the work by SENIOR ENGINEERS - and when the draftsman deviates from the design the SENIOR ENGINEER is often not around. At these times hes not able to say exactly why the alternative design cant be used!"
Yes, thats usually a pretty good summary of what I feel at times. This probably comes down to me not asking enough questions from my senior engineer so I can have a chat about it with whoevers drafting it when I get poked on a particular aspect of a sketch I've to hand.
Whenever he/she is not to hand, I remember and probably panic a bit that they're probably going to want a checkprint to look at when they get back and its not going to look particularly good if we've spent ages chatting about it.
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
It's non-committal, non-threatening, and let's the draftsman know his input will be used to help make the final decision. It also sets up the scenario where the draftsman does not get to make the final decision on key points, and you get to act as the draftsman/engineer go-between who has a more intimate grasp on what the engineer was thinking (i.e., you cannot be left out of the final decision).
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
Is that what you meant?
That's the risk with non-committal language like that.
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
I've definitely gotten the "no, I'll do it MY way" from drafters, notably two folks who wanted to be engineers but couldn't pass the FE exam (first step here in the USA). They absolutely COULD NOT DEAL with the fact that a woman with a master's degree and years of experience might actually have some knowledge that they didn't. Really, for those folks, there was no amount of kind words or let's-get-a-beer that would make any difference at all. So, I made sure I was durn sure of what I needed on the drawings and got the drawings the way they needed to be. In the end, it was my design and my stamp. Now before folks get all cranky again, yes I was happy to listen to good and useful suggestions, but I wasn't about to let myself be bullied.
I've also worked with some brilliant drafters who had great ideas, and were happy to be part of the team instead of us-vs-them. GOSH is life better that way. Those folks, I learned a ton from, and am glad to know.
Best of luck. I hope things get sorted out.
Please remember: we're not all guys!
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
Without explicit instructions, the draftsman is going to do as he pleases. He can start drafting up his version immediately. Should the senior engineer decide the draftsman plan is not what was envisioned, the draftsman soon learns his time was wasted (by his own fault) and the junior engineer "should" gain a little more respect by knowing the "correct" answer (assuming the draftsman isn't a petty jerk). If the draftsman's version is valid, the draftsman is happy he hasn't wasted time, the senior engineer is happy, the junior engineer learns something new, and the junior engineer also (hopefully) looks better in the draftsman's eyes for being respectful about it all.
If a draftsman chose to sit on his ass out of spite, he wouldn't last long at any company I've ever worked at.
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
A key role of draftsmen is to be the guardians of drawing standards. The best understand it is more than an arbitrary set of rules. It is about clear communication and thorough documentation. A drawing needs to adhere to standards, not just so it's "done right", but so that it can be read by others who are also drawing-literate.
Problems arise when those with less drawing literacy try to do odd things to make things "clear". They add unnecessary views and cram on additional information that really belongs elsewhere. Such things can make life easier for a select few persons, but can heavily detract from actual communication of design.
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
As one of the " great unwashed" I defer to the " engineer" in charge, however at the end of the day the drawing has to be done so that it can be read by others who are also drawing-literate. It also has to conform to the standards set out by the engineering codes and specifications of the country in question. Do you have any idea how many different manhole covers there are ? Do they all meet " your " code ? Because your draughts-person has done this job a considerable number of times, he/she may have a much better idea than you, what works and what does not, unless you have information you have not given him /her.
B.E.
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
I'll tell you a story of when I was a green engineer and struggled with a particular draftsman.
It was the latter 90s, and I was working civil site in a large, reputable engineering firm. I was green out of undergrad, had maybe worked a year. We were working on a large 18 hole golf course community, doing road layout and grading, in AutoCAD with Softdesk as an overlay. Most of the designers in the office were either engineering or landscape architecture grads, but there was one guy who really knew CAD systems well, and drafted very pretty drawings, but had no degree.
We had a scan of a hand drawn road layout from a land planner, and were trying to lay in roads with actual geometry that fitted the thing. I was doing half of it, and he was doing the other half. The task basically consisted of dropping centerlines down the scanned tif, and filleting them in such a way that they closely matched up with the land planner's road layout, then joining the lines into polylines, assigning those as "alignments" in Softdesk, and then using those alignments to do more complicated tasks like running grading templates down them / etc.
Well when I was trying to work with his stuff in Softdesk, funny things kept happening when I labeled the PIs and PTs on the horizontal curves. It turns out, this draftsman clown was grip-editing the polylines after they'd been filletted, to drag them over top of the curves the land planner had in the tif. In essence, his "Points of Tangency" weren't actually tangent. Huge no-no. Completely wrong.
So I went over to his desk, and asked him what he was doing. He showed me. I told him he was wrong. He got defensive, and accusatory, and started pulling the experience card against me. I said, "no, look, I'll show you why it's wrong" and leaned over his keyboard to show him why, on screen, and the guy flipped his computer screen off to prevent me from showing him.
So I walked away, did whatever work I could on my half that I knew wasn't screwed up, and told my superior about the whole thing the next day. Guy was fired half a year later due to his overall attitude, despite him being a relatively talented and experienced draftsman.
So yes. Listen to the old farts because they have experience. That's how you grow as an engineer. But there are going to be times when your degree is right and they're wrong. At these times, talk it out with them, don't step on their toes, and then bring the issue to a superior. That's what the superior is for. Particularly if he's the guy that's going to be stamping the plans.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
Your experience might have been less memorable, had you said of grip-editing a polyline, something like "not compatible with what we are trying to do in Softdesk", rather than "wrong".
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
Otherwise that's a perfect example and a good post. I hated to nitpick because it's one little iota of "but..." out of a good long post, but it's one point that I believe sums up the whole thread:
Degree, or lack of degree, will not decide who is correct. Both sides should remove their ego and be able to admit the better solution, and keep a mind that's open to seeing the other side.
The only exception is when an engineer is faced with two comparably effective solutions but "feels better" about one or the other. In that case "My stamp is the one going on it and I feel better with this one" is 100% valid because it's his ass on the line. The engineer just has to make sure it's a decision made without ego, but rather regarding the content of the deliverable.
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RE: Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman
-Mark Twain
Experience only can take you so far, experience with degree can take you further.
beej67,
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Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
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