Should I avoid head hunters?
Should I avoid head hunters?
(OP)
Long time lurker first time thread starter so please excuse any transgressions that might follow....
I have been with my current employer for over 6 years and see the signs it is time to move on do to management changes that I do not see as being any good for my department in the future. There are plenty of opportunities to apply to in my area along with other states that could work out well.
My question is before I start throwing my resume out there and sabotage enlisting the help of some recruiters should I consider using one to search for opportunities per my requirements and needs? I ask this because it is my understanding that if I have already applied at a company the recruiter can't or will not approach said company typically.
Also any of your experiences with recruiters is greatly appreciated. No references needed either.
I have been with my current employer for over 6 years and see the signs it is time to move on do to management changes that I do not see as being any good for my department in the future. There are plenty of opportunities to apply to in my area along with other states that could work out well.
My question is before I start throwing my resume out there and sabotage enlisting the help of some recruiters should I consider using one to search for opportunities per my requirements and needs? I ask this because it is my understanding that if I have already applied at a company the recruiter can't or will not approach said company typically.
Also any of your experiences with recruiters is greatly appreciated. No references needed either.





RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
Professional Recruiting is a personal service, like a barber, a Realtor, or a dental hygienist. There are really good ones. There are really bad ones. Most are somewhere in the middle. For an engineer with 6 years experience you wouldn't expect to pay them a fee, so they make their living from the hiring company's fee. If you contact a company that the recruiter then contacts on your behalf, the company can say they hired you as a walk in, not as a recruitment result and not pay the recruiter. That is why the recruiter won't generally bother shopping you to companies that you have applied to.
I've heard of several people who found jobs on LinkedIn through its job search function. It seems to be much better focused for professionals than something like Monster.com. I've also heard of people who got connected with awesome recruiters at LinkedIn.
I've worked through a couple of recruiters and I have failed miserably to ever hook up with one of the good or even OK ones. I think finding a good one is much like finding a good Realtor--word of mouth is the best tool.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
Most headhunters eant you to suceed but I find that most oversell the company to you and most oversell you to the company - do your research on whatever company they want to hook you up to.
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
That's not what real recruiters do.
That's what you do.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
I do plan on researching the firms thuroughly before even interviewing with them, that is how I landed my current job from just a job fair by asking company & industry specific questions instead of just dropping off a resume.
I guess it will always be a test of how well you can see through the BS the recruiter and possibly the prospective employer might shovel.
Either way it is a decision I won't have to make for a couple months at the earliest depending on changes around here.
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
Seriously, the shortage in Power is insane right now... I did a year doing Civil/Structural design for a power firm, and to this day I'm contacted about once a month by someone looking for a power EE.
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
That said, some organisations work exclusively through recruiters. For maximum exposure, you need to sign up with them all. No harm in doing so, just don't expect them to do anything for you, and make sure you represent yourself to the employer at the earliest opportunity - if you can even do it before the recruiter gets there, all the better.
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
But that points out that YOU need to market yourself... targeted resume drops, job fairs, LinkedIn, etc. Keep track of every company you contact as you will need to inform any recruiter of a conflict... if you've already submitted to company 'A', the recruiter should not do the same. It looks bad for the recruiter (which makes you look bad in his eyes as you're wasting his time) and even has the potential to lose the position completely as the company thinks you don't have your crap together.
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
Few years later, as economy started to recover, on one lucky day I was contacted by 5 recruiting companies within few hours – all about the same job. The word “vultures” comes to mind.
My dentist and accountant performed much better over all that times.
Just a personal experience for whatever it’s worth.
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
I think your best bet is to update your LinkedIn profile and use their job search. Don't forget to look at Craigslist as well; there can be a surprising number of positions there. Another place you might look is your local unemployment office website. The ones here in Seattle have job boards and I've seen positions posted there that I haven't seen elsewhere.
Jeff Mirisola, CSWE
My Blog
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
I fully plan on marketing myself and searching every resource available before making any decisions because I have worked hard to get where I am and see many opportunities as the economy continues to recover along with being in Power - Protection & Controls specifically helps right now.
Thanks again for all of the shared experiences and replies, it helps to hear them.
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
I recommend networking and searching on your own. You'll save time AND the employers will be more likely to hire you because they don't have to pay a hefty recruiting commission. The most important thing to remember with recruiters is that they don't work for you. They work for their clients. Expect to be treated accordingly.
Tunalover
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
I get called all the time, almost like spam this past Summer. And even though I say I am not looking I still get the calls. 1 week I was getting called multiple times a day. Don't know where my resume is popping up that says I am looking.
The recruiter is most likely not an engineer or has any idea past the keywords of what a company is looking for to place you. So make sure your keywords are specific when handing your resume over.
B+W Engineering and Design | Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer http://bwengr.com
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
Great Headhunters
--
JHG
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
The good ones will at least get you an interview.
Good luck.
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."
Ben Loosli
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
Other fields may be different, so YMMV...
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
One opinion that went around our company was that if you hire someone using a headhunter, in a few years, you're likely to lose them. You're in the headhunter's Rolodex (or whatever they use now) and you've shown an affinity to leave for the right motivation ($$$). They have a dead period, usually about three years, where they can't contact you (I guess they might lose their fee), but after that you're fair game.
That is exactly what happened to us. But the guy was good, we got three years out of him, so I guess everyone got something in the deal.
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
I get plenty of offers, but the money difference is often nothing to jump ship for, particularly when I'm being treated fairly and enjoy my work. You don't jump ship for a 3% salary increase, and if you're able to command a 10%+ increase, your current job is likely doing it wrong (I'd estimate half of my moves were for large increases in pay). Maybe you hired the person at slightly below market, but after a few years experience, you can't blame them for finding greener pastures at some place that is offering a bit above market (that 10% increase).
The point is, it's not the headhunter's fault.
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
At my previous employer, they actually had a headhunter call me on employer's behalf (unknown to me at the time.) I told them what I told all the others; not actively looking, but this is what I'd like to be making so let me know if anything comes up in that range.
Next review I am given a "retention raise" that is x% now, x% in 6 months, not close to the magic number but hey, that's still a nice surprise. 8 months rolls around, haven't received the second part of it.
Get an unsolicited interview (through a friend, not a headhunter) so I check it out. Goes well, tell them the magic number, get an offer for that amount. Took it on the spot, what else do you do when you get what you ask for?
Turn in 2 weeks notice. "Oh we had no idea, what can we do, what will it take to keep you, here's a counter offer (for magic number that I still never disclosed to employer directly.)
Too late now, I'm realizing that you knew what it would take to keep me and didn't make it happen. Manager had dropped some hints about the headhunter cold call that finally all added up. It's an interesting strategy, easier and has more immediate value than market research. That changed the situation from honest misunderstanding to consciously low-balling and hoping for inertia to keep me around. Win some, lose some. If I'm not worth it in an honest (from my end anyway) negotiation, then I'm not going to participate in the whole counter-offer blackmail thing.
There are two sides to every story, and no I don't think I should get a big raise every year "just because." But nearly 8 years there and I am still trying to catch up to the market, if it hasn't happened yet then it's not going to.
Cliff notes: if you get a cold call from a headhunter, it could be your current employer knowing that you're way underpaid, and trying to figure out how little an increase it would take for you to feel just moderately underpaid.
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
Right now in my area is really a hot market, so I figure that I don´t need a headhunter to do my job and look for my best interest.
Some time ago I was with a colleague and friend and he mentioned to me that there was a headhunter that wanted to connect with him through Linkedin and that he had a couple of opportunities that he wanted to speak with him about. Since my colleague was looking to change jobs, he accepted the Linkedin connection. A couple of days after I recevied in my Linkedin the connection request from teh same guy with the exact same story. I didn´t connect with him.
I changed jobs some months ago and sure enough this guys name popped out again in two other not so flattering situations:
1-He had had a meeting with my boss saying that he had a lot of good engineers and managers in his portfolio and he could help us reinforce our team. Soon enough he was sending CVs that were basically Linkedin CVs (some were even guys that I knew) but with his letterhead paper and shooting for the sweet commission.
2-In other occasion I was having a lunch with a potential guy that we were considering to hire and he asked us to maitnain our meeting under wraps because a few weeks back he had been contacted by this "headhunter" and set up a meeting with a potential employer. He filled the employer´s questionnaire where he stated that he didn´t want his current employer to be contacted. Next day he receives a call from this potential employer saying that they had a non-poaching agreement with his current employer and that they would have to contact his current employer to inform them that he had applied for a job.
Bottom line is, unless I can´t avoid it, I will not use headhunters.
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
...if you overbid to get them on board and then don't reward them once they are there (presumably because they are ahead of the curve and an easy target during the pay rise bunfight meetings).
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
Dang, I must be overpaid
TTFN

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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
EEfromOU, I would recommend using both methods. If a company prefers to only use recruiters you might not get an interview by sending the company a resume. If a department head has a preference to find engineers via LinkedIn or word-of-mouth then, you have to be your own recruiter by finding if that company is looking and contacting them directly.
Sometimes a companies own culture prevents them from finding a specialist because of a disconnect between HR and engineering. A few years ago there was an adv for a job which looked very interesting and was well within my skill set. I wanted to call the hiring manger directly but I could not find an actual name, phone number in the adv or their website, nor through a long google search. So instead of my usual cold call I sent them my resume, then I got an email which basically said,
"Our computer thanks your computer for sending a resume".
About a year later at a conference, I actually met the director of engineering. He told me, "Boy I'd really like you to come work with us. We're having trouble finding engineers." They decided to start finding engineers thru recruiters. I was already at my current job which I'm very happy with so I couldn't help him. My point is again, I recommend you use both methods.
Darrell Hambley P.E.
SENTEK Engineering, LLC
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
In general it is often a waste of time except few who are really good, my advice is:
- Look for a recruiter with strong character; someone who stand up for his opinion, as most likely this guy will have the gut to make a decision and take a risk when all the rest will not have courage to say yes if it is a yes or no if it is a no. Also his word will be respected by the HR and company staff. If he pushes for you than you can be sure this will produce an effect.
Strong character does not mean he is shouting or looks strict.
It means someone who has his vision and values no matter what they are. Recruiter who have fear (fear to loose their position or reputation or whatsoever) will drop you when it gets just a little bit tough, this you cannot rely on.
Look for the background of the recruiter, this can say a lot on his values.
- Look if the recruiter will come an pick you up at the train station to take you to an interview, or will care if you find the way to the company; these are small things that give an insight on the recruiter;
The bad news is that these people are rare.
this is just my experience.
"If you want to acquire a knowledge or skill, read a book and practice the skill".
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
I am still with my original company mainly looking for opportunities and researching companies before I start actively applying and possibly engaging in conversations with recruiters.
I do not expect any recruiter will provide a better opportunity than I can find on my own but I will give them a chance when I decide it is time to move on without question.
Again thanks for sharing.
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
I had an in person interview, told them I wanted to stay local, and had 2 specific companies where I wanted to work. She claimed she had dealt with both of those companies in the past. I also told her what I thought I was worth and she told me that was reasonable, but maybe a little high.
I find out about an opportunity regarding one of the companies I was interested in on Craigslist. I contacted the headhunter and asked why I wasn't informed and if she would recommend me for the position. Bottom line is I never heard back and ended up getting the position on my own. Not only that, but I ended up negotiating an even higher salary than the lower amount that she thought was "a little high".
I'd say to give them your information and do the interview and hope something comes of it, mainly because you have nothing to lose. But in the end, I wouldn't expect anything.
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
My suggestion is to use them when you have to, find one or two who are good and specialize in your field, network with your associates and contacts, and apply direct when you can.
If you can find the actual "hiring manager" all the better and you can bypass the HR screening and/or lack of engineering knowledge.
Above all, have patience. The "black hole" of internet applications can be very frustrating.
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_Hunters
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
They do their best to convince you your reasonable salary request is a bit too high, despite your own research. They want to get you into that job so they can make their money, and it's easier to do that if they can knock 10-20% off of your desired salary. If I was just starting off and desperate, I'd still think twice about using them, and even then it would be for a short period of time. The benefits suck, too.
They are exactly why recruiters have the reputation they do...
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
knowledge is power
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
Tunalover
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
My experience with Aerotek before that was in the way that they were throwing any possible candidate at a job opening especially since it was entry level but now with a few years experience and an MSEE in Power I feel I can directly apply for jobs but didn't want to discount possible worthwhile opportunities from a recruiter.
Again thanks everyone for sharing your experiences, I will have to check out some Herbie Hancock while I am searching.
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
They weren't interested in my technical bona fides.
The purpose of the interview was clearly to discover the color of my skin.
They never actually did squat for me.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
I'm sorry, but I just don't believe you. I've run companies, and there is no way I'm going to charge someone out at $140 and pay them $100. Well, I suppose I could have, but I wouldn't have been running a company for very long.
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
Are you saying that $40/hr net revenue would not be worth your while IF you were running a contract engineering firm (which obviously you aren't)? In that case the alternative was to let the analyst go then turn around and hire him through another contract agency.
Tunalover
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
I wouldn't necessarily put a contracting agency into the same category as a recruiter, although many fulfil both roles.
As far as recruiters go I suppose they are a necessary evil. I had a recent experience where a recruiter left me a voice mail, but when I called back he didn't remember the call and had no notes regarding the same. I just chalked that up to the recruiter being very busy and it being almost impossible to remember everyone they called (thus the need for good note taking).
I am feverishly applying to jobs, and I can't remember them all 100% either.
I always refer to one of "the four agreements": "Don't take anything personally"
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
What with all the taxes and other costs of doing business (at least in the US) simple math does not work for calculating "net revenue" as you have in your counter example.
GHAartmann, believe it or not but the job I have now was one that I didn't remember applying for when the hiring manager called me for a quick interview. Image my embarrassment when his first question was what I know about company X, and my response was, "uhhh, what company?"
When I was looking for a job I put my resume everywhere I could, online or in person, filled out online apps for anyone that had a website. I would sign an exclusivity agreement but otherwise if it's an option try it. In the end I had applied to places I didn't remember applying (see previous paragraph).
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."
Ben Loosli
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
Tunalover
RE: Should I avoid head hunters?
Invoices I've seen have been for 1.5X my hourly.
Some agencies seem better run and more honest than others. Once I got a reference check message on my answering machine, should have gone to my reference, who only got the call after I straightened the agency out, for the sake of things going ahead. I've also been quoted a high rate, only to be haggled down. Stupid, really unemployment insurance obligates one to take 80% of your last paid rate.
I'm happy to speak well of Advantage Professionals. We have worked well together.