Stupid Construction Questions
Stupid Construction Questions
(OP)
Ordinarily, I don't like to call field people stupid - I spent many years in construction and still do field work - but see attached photo. Today, the resident engineer sent an RFI asking "is this OK?"





RE: Stupid Construction Questions
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
www.PeirceEngineering.com
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
Given some of my more recent experiences with the DOT consultants who design the bridges, this may have been built exactly the way it was detailed by the EoR.
There had to have been a shop drawing for the railing, as it appears to be a shop-fabricated item. The problem should have been caught there. But then, the consultants' reviews of my falsework drawings always seem to generate comments on the innane.
Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
The company I work for is the EOR. The design drawing had a post on each side of the bridge joint and an expansion joint in the railing. Sometimes we get it right.
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
BB, First, let me apologize if my comment offended. I realize that there are many truly skilled consultants out there designing bridges. Perhaps my cheap shot should have been directed more towards the process rather than the EoRs. My recent dealings with my state's DOT is probably a classic, with the rep who is on-site daily knowing so little about the design process and the construction process who reports to another who sits in an office far removed from the site (who has probably never seen the actual site conditions).
I guess the real question is, who in the convoluted chain of bureaucracy approved the shop drawing for the railing? From my experience, it all goes back to the EoR or consultant. Of course that person, while quite knowledgeable and cooperative, also has never seen the site first-hand.
Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
No apologies necessary. I posted the photo for a bit of mid-week levity. The PM in my office for the construction support (he isn't a bridge guy) sent me the memo from the RE asking for a response. I just shook my head when I read the questions. Someone never looked at the shop drawings.
In the area where I mainly work, RE's on state DOT projects are usually very good. This project is with a local agency. They're more "liberal" when it comes to qualifications.
In a bit of irony, I'm involved with a project that's just starting construction - the same contractor and same super. Yesterday at the progress meeting he said "...I don't mind doing you a favor; this way you'll look the other way on something else..." When the time is right, I'll pull the photo out and tell him we don't need any favors like this.
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
In my experience, people who become foremen are not always known for their expertise in chasing details. Usually they are delegated the job because of their ability to manage people and anticipate needs. Some can deal well with the bureaucratic process of coordinating submittals and shop drawings, some cannot.
But cvg is correct in that it should have been caught before the anchors went in. If they were post-installed anchors, even worse.
Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
BB: Where is the beach? Maybe he was distracted by beachgoers in bikinis.
Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
Very Truly Yours,
- andru18
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
RHTPE and Bridgebuster,
In my experience as a bridge engineering consultant to a DOT I have never reviewed any shop drawings for any bridge I have designed. The drawings are turned into the Project Manager at the DOT and I may never hear from it again unless it requires a revision during the bid process. I also see a lot of resident engineers who won't make any decisions and are quick to pass the buck to someone else.
Is this a normal procedure with other DOTs?
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
OSUCivlEng, I just finished helping a contractor resolve falsework issues with a cast-in-place integral abutment bridge over a small watercourse. The on-site inspector passed the falsework drawings on to the regional engineer who in turn passed them on to the design consultant. The design consultant then questioned the analysis done for the falsework, some of which was easily resolved with supplemental calculations provided by me. However a couple of sticking points could not be easily resolved, so everyone between the contractor and the design consultant took a "hands off" attitude. Which, in turn, brought construction to a halt. BTW this was in CT.
Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
Hg
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
You may want to rephrase the bolded, due to the italicized points you have raised. In my experience as an engineer working for the contractors who build bridges, the design engineer/EOR understands better than anyone what should be built, not how.
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
Yes I agree, I should have written what instead of how. However, I don't understand if someone doesn't know HOW things are built, why anyone thinks it's a good idea to put together a set of plans that explain WHAT to build. Contractors and engineers would better serve each other's interests if the engineers were actually involved in the construction process. Even the resident engineers I meet have very little understanding about how a set of plans goes together or frankly how to design anything.
I never pass up an opportunity to go to a job site, but for some reason my boss doesn't share my opinion.
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
Hokie66 - In my corner of the world, the EoR (design consultant) does review bridge related shop drawings. Unfortunately there is the issue of 'Who does the coordination of the various shop drawings?' Is that the design engineer's responsibility by contract, or is that assumed to be done by the DOT's regional or field engineer? Or maybe it has been assumed to have been done by the contractor. Venders who prepare shop drawings do not always think beyond the surface that their product attaches to, and will sometimes simply detail the product only. Who does the composite of all of the various shops for permanent items?
One of my niches is concrete formwork, shoring & falsework. Do you know how many formwork drawings are done with little consideration of where the rebar is and how it affects the form ties needed to hold the forms together? There's nothing more aggravating to find that the highest loaded taper tie in a 24' high wall form can't be installed because of the #8 footing dowel, plus the #8 vertical tied to it, blocks the tie hole in the form. Or to have set an expensive wall form panel only to watch the rebar installer come along and drill holes in it for dowels (for the wall that gets placed later).
Personally, I feel shop drawing synchronization belongs in the hands of the contractor. Could every vendor do a more thorough job at detailing their respective shop drawings, and showing how their product(s) integrate with the rest of the work? Sure. But only the exceptional detailers understand the inter-relationship of every component, whether within their scope or not - many do not.
In the OP's case, perhaps next time the bridge designer will be more explicit in specifying structural connection locations so as to avoid the potential conflict. Perhaps he/she might actually pay more attention to these kinds of items when reviewing shops. Often times though, the individual reviewing shop drawings is the newer hire who is still trying to get his/her bearings in the world of construction.
Sorry to rant a bit, but this is how I see it.
Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA
RE: Stupid Construction Questions
I completely agree. I think it would be worthwhile for designers to spend as much time in the field as they can, and even take a switch to the other side if possible and design a few of the temp works.