Sprinkler System Design
Sprinkler System Design
(OP)
I'm sure this is a hard question to answer but...
I'm curious to know how difficult it would be to learn how to design sprinkler systems. I do structural work but get asked to stamp fire protection / sprinkler pipe designs from time to time as I know a couple contractors in the industry. I don't ever do it as I am not trained in this area. However I am wondering if there are any manuals / books / seminars that could help me become competent in this area. Maybe I try to sub out a few jobs and review the calcs. I have designed supports for piping systems and have a basic understanding of fluid mechanics but I'm wondering how big the jump is. Again probably hard to quantify but any feedback would be helpful.
Thanks!
FYI -> I tried this in a different Forum but was directed here, so I apologize for this being a duplicate.
I'm curious to know how difficult it would be to learn how to design sprinkler systems. I do structural work but get asked to stamp fire protection / sprinkler pipe designs from time to time as I know a couple contractors in the industry. I don't ever do it as I am not trained in this area. However I am wondering if there are any manuals / books / seminars that could help me become competent in this area. Maybe I try to sub out a few jobs and review the calcs. I have designed supports for piping systems and have a basic understanding of fluid mechanics but I'm wondering how big the jump is. Again probably hard to quantify but any feedback would be helpful.
Thanks!
FYI -> I tried this in a different Forum but was directed here, so I apologize for this being a duplicate.





RE: Sprinkler System Design
I personally feel we should leave this to sprinkler contractors, but I believe all states should have nicet requirements to ensure quality.
I work with sprinkler contractors a lot, and to be good at it, you need to be doing it full time. IMO.
I turned down a lot of work while out on my own, because I did not feel I had the ability to do a top notch job. i suppose that may be why I had to shut the doors. But, I also know I could sleep at night and honored the ethics of being an engineer.
RE: Sprinkler System Design
Things that I find wrong include wrong commodity classification, water supply testing, plans and hydraulic reference points do not match, cut sheets supplied and equipment on the job do not match. Pipe sizes do not match and or wrong pipe schedual used say 40 on the plans but 10 on the calculations. Pipe hanger design not shown or wrong when indicated. It goes on and on, all the plans I review are stamped AND I find all kind if things wrong. I bounce back 40% of what I review! sometimes it takes 3 sets of plans before I sign off on the plans!
From teaching plan review seminars I can tell you far too many AHJ feel for that raised seal and do not spend a lot of time on plan review. If I had a $1 for every time I hear the local AHJ gave me a permit if he is OK why aren't you!
OK I will get off my soap box now. Of coarse I do not imply any of the AHJ that post here would ever do what others do.
RE: Sprinkler System Design
http://www.firesprinkler.org/training/schools/begd...
Another source
http://www.nfsa.org/events/event_list.asp?DGPCrSrt...
RE: Sprinkler System Design
Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com
RE: Sprinkler System Design
What is the NICET? Is it required? Or maybe more importantly does it take that kind of experience to design sprinkler systems or is that more for inspections?
The more I'm looking into it, it seems that you need to know the code well. Apply the code regulations which determines the amount of water required and where it needs to go. Then you must design a system that can deliver that amount of water. I suppose the main thing is getting the code correct. Is the fluid mechanics portion pretty demanding as well?
As a mechanical engineer is this pretty different than your normal HVAC mechanical engineer?
Thanks again!!
EIT
www.HowToEngineer.com
RE: Sprinkler System Design
Design a system that will protect it
Knowing the hazard is not only the commodity, but how packaged, how stored , how high, etc
Yes fire sprinkled warehouses have burned to the ground.
http://www.nicet.org/become-certified/how-do-i-get...
http://www.nicet.org/become-certified/how-do-i-get...
RE: Sprinkler System Design
I'm positive this lament can be echoed by all the experienced regulars who post on this forum whether they be a professional engineer, insurance representative or NICET certified technician.
As a NICET IV technician having 40 years experience I can tell you there is no greater joy than working on a project where a knowledgeable and experienced professional engineer is involved. At the same time there's no worse nightmare than having an inexperienced idiot in charge even if there is PE initials after his name.
Seriously, I know a couple FPE's that I have worked with in the past and I really look forward to working with them on a project because, for me anyway, it's a fun thing. Then there are a couple PE's around that when I see their name on a project I head the other direction because I don't need the experience working with idiots.
NICET stands for "National Institute for Certification in Engineering Technology" and NICET is a non-profit division of the National Society of Professional Engineers.
About NICET
Most states have laws that exempt us... some engineers hate the idea we do engineering so we don't call it that but we do it anyway.
Many states, among them Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, South Carolina, North Carolina, Maryland, Tennessee, Kentucky, Ohio, Illinois and the list can be expanded have laws very similar to what Georgia has regarding the design (we call it design, we aren't supposed to engineer) of fire sprinkler systems.
Georgia Fire Sprinkler Act
In Georgia every company must employ full time at least one "Certificate of Competency Holder" at each place of business. The "Certificate Holder" is the person who actually holds the Certificate of Competency.
I don't know of any other "examinations" given in Georgia and I think that is a holdover from when the law was adopted and they grandfathered in some people.
Here is the form we use to submit fire sprinkler drawings to the state fire marshal for review 354S Fire Suppression System Transmittal Letter
As indicated on the form only a Certificate of Competency Holder can submit drawings for plan approval and to be a Certificate of Competency Holder you have to have NICET III or IV.
For what it is worth Georgia will come down very hard on a professional engineer that is working outside his area of experience and competency. If I receive drawings or specifications from a licensed Georgia PE I am supposed to follow those even if it's wrong. I mean who am I to argue with a PE who designates the 30,000 sq ft sales floor of a sporting goods store a Light Hazard Occupancy with a density of .10 over 1,500 with heads spaced 225 sq ft? What can happen in Georgia is I draw it up exactly that way, include a letter of why I think it is wrong with my plans and transmittal so if the state fire marshal finds it an issue their beef isn't with me but the PE and the PE's licensing board. I'm happy with this because I am all set up for a change order that will knock the PE's socks off while he argues not with me but his licensing board.
And no, while I could have done it I didn't. I did my job the right way because I take it very seriously.
Because I take my job seriously if I am ever in doubt about how to do something I know two FPE's I can go to for an answer. One charges $225 an hour to consult but he was well, well worth it on a couple projects.
And that is what NICET is and how it works.
RE: Sprinkler System Design
As of last November there were 2,044 Level III's and 1,258 Level IV's for a combined total of 3,288 nationwide. An average of 66 per state.
By comparison there are roughly 450,000 licensed professional engineers in the United States. An average of 9,000 per state.
I guess we could say it's very much a niche field with a rapidly aging population.
Some figures you might find interesting.
A couple years back I attended the NFSA seminar at Hawk's Cay, Florida for my CEU's and looking over the crowd I was struck by how we could be mistaken for a retirement community outing. When I got back I decided to do some checking and as of November, 2013 in Georgia there are 64 Level IV's on the registry and the average age is 61 years old. 25% are over 66 years old.
There are 195 combined Level III's and IV's and the average age of this group is 53 with only 17% of this group under age 40. 25% of the combined group is over 61 years old.
We already have a shortage of qualified technicians in the industry and I can only wonder what it will be like in 5 to 10 years I think the sprinkler industry is in for an even more severe shortage of qualified technicians
RE: Sprinkler System Design
I think the role of an FPE is better served in writing specs, code assessments, and plan review when it comes to fire sprinkler systems.
I believe it is also important for the FPE to be in the field a lot, not just behind the desk.
Personally, I have used just about every sprinkler layout and calc package on the market. I can lay out heads, run calcs, etc with no problem. I have done this for 26 years but to check systems, conduct prelim design, etc.
Would I layout and calc sprinkler systems for final design? No. As I noted before, I think we should leave it to techs who do it full time and know the nuances and design details a fitter in the field will need.
I wish the Nicet program was required in state. As others have noted, they have some mixed results with FPE's. I can tell you the same horror stories about sprinkler contractors I have dealt with. Nicet certification would help prevent this.
RE: Sprinkler System Design
So it seems on most jobs the sprinkler layout is a "design/build" where the Mechanical Engineer of Record specifies the criteria and then the sprinkler contract does the 'sprinkler design' and produces shop drawings. I'm assuming that the reason I have been asked about it from my contractor friends is because sometimes the ME of Record wants the shop drawings stamped by a PE, but I'll have to inquire with them again now that I understand the situation a bit better.
Thanks again for the info, sounds like there is a lot to be learned.
EIT
www.HowToEngineer.com
RE: Sprinkler System Design
Remember the best fire sprinkler specifications are short and sweet and include the owners certificate which is required to be provided on any project.
4.3* Owner’s Certificate
The owner(s) of a building or structure where the fire sprinkler system is going to be installed or their authorized agent shall provide the sprinkler system installer with the following information prior to the layout and detailing of the fire sprinkler system [see Figure A.23.1(b)]:
(1) Intended use of the building including the materials within the building and the maximum height of any storage
(2) A preliminary plan of the building or structure along with the design concepts necessary to perform the layout and detail for the fire sprinkler system
(3)* Any special knowledge of the water supply, including known environmental conditions that might be responsible for corrosion, including microbiologically influenced corrosion (MIC).
For the most part that's all I would ever need but if you feel the need to write a spec keep it simple such as "Install a sprinkler system to properly protect areas listed in the owners certificate in accordance with NFPA #13 standards and appropriate building and fire codes."
If you want a special head used, a concealed sprinkler with flat cover plate for example, just say so and don't start specifying specific makes and models because there's no need.
If the building or portions of it are subject to freezing just say and we'll install a dry pipe system.
We've all done large projects for FM Global and most of their specs are one paragraph. "Provide a density of .37 gpm over 3,000 sq ft with 500 gpm hose stream allowance using Factory Mutual approved methods and equipment." That's it, that's all I need.
And please, dump the four page dissertation on how pipe dope and tape needs to be applied to pipe threads and not the inside of pipe fittings. Whenever I see that I know I am dealing with a specifying engineer that doesn't have a clue.
RE: Sprinkler System Design
It is definitely more than knowing where to put the circles on the plans and drawing lines to connect those circles. I honestly believe it would take 5+ years of doing design 40+ hours per week to become competent and proficient at the job description. Sure, I can teach some one to do a job in probably 1 week, but it will not be adequate for installation or fabrication.
Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com
RE: Sprinkler System Design
R M Arsenault Engineering Inc.
www.rmae.ca
RE: Sprinkler System Design
I think that summarizes the thread nicely.
Over, and out.
RE: Sprinkler System Design
There are anecdotes that it takes 10,000 hours to master a skill, or about 5 years of full time work, which is right in NICET Level III territory which makes sense.