Small firm file server
Small firm file server
(OP)
Has anyone tried using a Network Attached Storage (NAS) for a small engineering office with some remote freelancers logging in?
We have been using Dropbox, which works very well in most respects. It has zero maintenance and setup, it allows access to anyone with an internet connection, and its backed up. The thing that DB does badly is it doesn't lock out other users when someone is working on a file.
I am thinking to have all our files on an NAS which is then backed up with Dropbox.
Does anyone have experience with this?
We have been using Dropbox, which works very well in most respects. It has zero maintenance and setup, it allows access to anyone with an internet connection, and its backed up. The thing that DB does badly is it doesn't lock out other users when someone is working on a file.
I am thinking to have all our files on an NAS which is then backed up with Dropbox.
Does anyone have experience with this?





RE: Small firm file server
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat
RE: Small firm file server
RE: Small firm file server
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat
RE: Small firm file server
950GB is a lot, btw...what kind of files do you have?
RE: Small firm file server
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RE: Small firm file server
The biggest drawback I've seen to Dropbox is that if you sync it with any of your computers, you need a lot of free space on those computers. I ran out of space on my laptop from Dropbox taking it all! I changed the hard drive and went to a 1tB drive, which solved that issue but have an occasional windows snafu from the OS transfer.
I did the same as IRstuff...used a dedicated synchronizing program for transfer. Faster and more reliable.
RE: Small firm file server
RE: Small firm file server
IRStuff,
I'm copying over a dedicated ethernet cable which is advertised to be about 100 times the speed of USB3. I think the problem is the dying server I'm coming off of. When stuff works right, this is the fastest copy I've ever seen, problem is that when it craps out, it sits there for hours looking like it is working and then crashes. I'm betting that my transfer should have been under 8 hours without this wonky computer. Day 3 is going better than Day 2 (the copy I started at 8:00 last night is 70% finished at 7:30 this morning, It is over 200 GB copied.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat
RE: Small firm file server
David...I have similar problem of keeping lots of stuff. Not pleased with dedicated scanner results on my negatives. How did you do yours?
RE: Small firm file server
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat
RE: Small firm file server
Seems like you don't really need Dropbox if you have an NAS plus syncing software like GoodSync to give you a local copy. Dropbox would only then be useful for backup and web access.
RE: Small firm file server
A mapped network drive setup could involve making a freelancer account that sees specific folders. Synology is pretty easy to setup for either method.
I just put together a freenas server to see how that can work too. In case you want to research some other options out there.
I prefer working off of local files and letting everything sync in the background.
B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer
http://bwengr.com
RE: Small firm file server
RE: Small firm file server
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat
RE: Small firm file server
RE: Small firm file server
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat
RE: Small firm file server
As for backups, versions and file locking, there are a multitude of software development tools that do exactly that, the biggest problem with them is that they're not designed for project recording, and thus the configuration and operation tends to be a bit confusing. SVN is one such tool, also solves some of the storage space issues as it only keeps differences in versions of files rather than complete iterations. Of course, a huge issue with them is that they don't run on a NAS system (at least not that I'm aware...).
RE: Small firm file server
I use Dropbox for my entire body of corporate files. When I work with other folks, I merely share the project folder with them, not the whole thing. Then I back up everything once a week to a local drive simply using an old DOS batch file I wrote with "XCOPY" (yeah, I know). To make sure me and my subs or collaborators don't step on each other's toes when working on a project, I make sure everyone has an email account with my server (which is run through the google aps 'gmail' style interface) and then I just shoot them a gchat every time I want to work in the same project they're working on, to find out which files they have open.
One thing I will say about backing up to Dropbox - don't do it. It's slow as all get out to have a weekly backup file try to sync through the cloud, because then every week your entire server's contents have to be transferred through your internet connection to the cloud. Huge pain in the rear. I found it much, much more efficient to host all my corporate data on Dropbox, allow it to sync in bits and pieces throughout the week as files change (as Dropbox was intended to be used), and then 'backup' all my corporate files to a local external drive. This gives me redundancy in four locations. One, my main computer, two, my laptop which stays plugged in all day when I'm not out and about catching the Dropbox cloud updates, three, the local external drive, and four, the cloud itself.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Small firm file server
I understand there are some higher end cloud systems like Huddle and Egnyte which deal with file locking, but they are much more expensive. So: I am thinking that remote staff should do a VPN into an NAS in the office, and we keep Dropbox for backup and for occasional working when offline.
RE: Small firm file server
I thought about it, but the drive is SATA 3.0 (not USB 3) and needs an active computer. I started another step last night and the process crashed an hour after I went to bed. Now I'm having to copy 4th level folders.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat
RE: Small firm file server
Also have a router set up so that people not in the office can VPN in and work as if they are here. Works better than the built-in ReadyNAS remote option.
Works pretty well for us. Have had the drives go bad, so I always have a spare ready to hotswap.
We do a local backup to an external hard drive, and also cloud backup.
RE: Small firm file server
Can anyone recommend specific models of NAS's? Which Netgear/Synology/WD should I get? Assuming max 5 people using it, no more than 2TB required.
RE: Small firm file server
*** 950 GB server X 3 = 2.850 TB... But a 3TB only allows 2.7 TB of usable space, therefore bump up one size.
-Not a rule only guidance and sometimes the cost is small for increasing in size now vs later.
RE: Small firm file server
I hear you. Good luck with the NAS thing, and report back once you've got it set up. I may switch to something like that eventually.
On the AutoCAD path issue - I always keep all references in the same folder, and I don't reference a path when I drop in the reference. That usually keeps things loading properly.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Small firm file server
Re AutoCAD paths
One of my former employers made much use of standard blocks, all kept in a few directories on the sole file server.
... which worked okay for everyone else, except lucky me, who got assigned the fastest computer in the place as my workstation. ... yep, the file server.
I could not find a way to stop AutoCAD, or MSDOS, I never knew which one, from helping me by substituting C:\blockpath whenever I put in \\\fileserver\blockpath when it happened that I was working at the fileserver. So every time I edited a file containing blocks at my computer, I had to then go to someone else's computer and fix the damn block references.
... else the boss got all pissy about not being able to find the blocks. That would be the same boss who wouldn't 'waste' the money on a dedicated fileserver stuffed in a closet.
</tangent>
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Small firm file server
RE: Small firm file server
RE: Small firm file server
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Small firm file server
We don't have large numbers of sheets in our drawings, and try to put all the sheets in one dwg with minimal XRefs.
RE: Small firm file server
I'm not familiar with ZFS or the term "bitrot". After 34 years of computers being a major part of my practice, I am pretty familiar with the sins of our past causing problems with our futures (that is my main problem right now, improperly formed meta data on photographs that end up corrupting files). I will look into ZFS and see if I can incorporate it or similar technology.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat
RE: Small firm file server
Basically, a single random bit flip will often corrupt an entire file (photo, whatever) in a conventional file system. While it's not likely to be totally unreadable, there will often be significant negative impact. With a "next gen file system" (ZFS or btrfs) the bit flip is automatically detected and corrected.
Ars Technica has some good articles, including example photos with a single bit flipped in both conventional :
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014...
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014...
RE: Small firm file server
I did write a small followup to my experience with our Synology NAS, which works very well. http://bwengr.com/blog/google-drive-cloud/ 100GB of Google Drive is now $1.99/month.
Relative xrefs are your friend.
project/xrefs
project/sheets
Previous revisions just get the bundle of sheets e-transmitted to an Archive folder.
B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer
http://bwengr.com
RE: Small firm file server
I copy everything I need to reference into the same project folder. Blocks, tifs, images, title blocks, USGS quad rasters, whatever. I do not save CAD files from previous issues, because those always get mucked up anyway by changes to the references. Instead, I keep PDFs of each issue, which are dated and then secured against modification with a password. In fact, I don't print from AutoCAD at all, I send the PDFs themselves to the print shop. Mostly I find that clients just want the PDFs, so I only ever print if I'm submitting for permit or issuing CDs.
Most of the old methods regarding referencing blocks and the like in a central location were holdovers from back when storage space mattered. It no longer matters, period. Most of the old methods regarding keeping revision history in DWG format were likewise holdovers from back when PDFs weren't a thing, and everyone had to plot out of AutoCAD. I just dumped the holdover policies and moved on with my life. Revision history in DWG was a nightmare, especially if you have your blocks in a central location, because suddenly new changes to your blocks show up in old already-issued drawings. And if you are pulling an old revision for some reason, chances are that reason is some kind of disagreement about what you sent out, so you definitely need to know exactly what you sent out.
I come from a background where we would have three or four XREFs blended so we could have multiple designers working on the same project at the same time. One doing utilities, one doing profiles, one doing grading, etc, in separate DWGs that reference each other. As I'm a smaller shop now, I much prefer to have everything in one file. I'm iffy on survey - sometimes I keep it in an XREF, and sometimes I just drop it in as a block. It's nice to be able to move survey text around, but you run the risk of accidentally deleting something important, so I usually lock the layers.
my .02
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Small firm file server
Thanks for that, You covered a bunch of topics I've been struggling with. I like your solution.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat
RE: Small firm file server
RE: Small firm file server
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat
RE: Small firm file server
RE: Small firm file server
A lot of the issue with XREF stuff is whether or not the data contained in the XREF is likely to change. A manual process to import and bind all the XREF data, and then remove it again when the client issues an update (building services for example, hopefully survey stays static...) as opposed to just linking the new file in when the client changes something, is often labour intensive.
I've largely been for the use of XREF, though it hasn't suited all my applications and others have ended up binding in the data and then having to scrap the revision. There are also options for exporting all relevant drawings including XREFs and static blocks in a package so that they're kept clean and unencumbered by such issues as what beej mentions, but that leads to where to store them (i.e. version them). Later versions do funky things like sheet sets with automatically generated drawing lists and title block properties, but not many places use them.
Conceptually there are heaps of good tools that do the equivalent for software development, and it does get frustrating to have to wrangle through AutoCAD's methods instead of having a system similar to code and libraries, but it sounds like most of us are in similar situations.
RE: Small firm file server
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat
RE: Small firm file server
a virus like Cryptolocker could still infect your files, as it could connect to the NAS without any problems.
dropbox is a little better though, as you are able to get the previous version of the file. i don't think that google drive has such options.
i still think that NAS with raid 1 + cloud is the best solution for small companies.