Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
(OP)
Is there even a perception of conflict of interest if a vendor pays my way to tour their out-of-town fabrication facility? Single day, there and back, one meal, no side trips. The catch... they're ferrying me back and forth in a private jet.
That seems to go beyond the minimal value arrangements I've stuck to in the past (e.g. a $10 lunch).
This is not the first vendor to offer to pay my way to tour a facility, but I've always been able to bow out on account of airline travel taking too much time. I'm running out of graceful excuses when the Lear can land 4 miles from my front door and 1/2 mile from their facility.
Gut says don't do it. Rationalizing says I would actually learn something. The means of transportation serves no lasting benefit to me, but my honest self has to admit that there's some glam factor to flying a private jet.
That seems to go beyond the minimal value arrangements I've stuck to in the past (e.g. a $10 lunch).
This is not the first vendor to offer to pay my way to tour a facility, but I've always been able to bow out on account of airline travel taking too much time. I'm running out of graceful excuses when the Lear can land 4 miles from my front door and 1/2 mile from their facility.
Gut says don't do it. Rationalizing says I would actually learn something. The means of transportation serves no lasting benefit to me, but my honest self has to admit that there's some glam factor to flying a private jet.





RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
At a previous employer a customer wanted us to do them a favor so I got to fly on their private shuttle. No big deal.
Maybe it's a cultural thing, the US seems a bit more uptight about this kind of thing than the UK did.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
Rules are rules; if you have them, where's the issue?
"Gut says don't do it. Rationalizing says I would actually learn something. The means of transportation serves no lasting benefit to me, but my honest self has to admit that there's some glam factor to flying a private jet."
Who's paying for YOUR time? Can you rationally not be biased in favor of this company in your future dealings at your company? Even assuming you are not overtly influenced, just the mere fact that you now know more about this company than the cohort of this company's nebulous competitors , gives them a leg up. Their objective is not to reward you, per se, but simply yo sway your opinion.
TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
I have been on a couple of factory tours and even taken out to a local horse race park by the company brass. I was in a group of several engineers, contractors, reps. I learned more about how they produced their product, how their quality control worked, and many other things which cannot be known from a cut sheet or even seeing the finished product.
However, I, in no way, felt obligated to favor this vendor due to the trip. They make good product, which I specify a lot of, but I specified a lot of them prior to the trip.
Unless your company has rules against it, go to the tour, learn all you can, enjoy the experience, then come back and do your job based upon what you learned. If you specify them more due to increased knowledge garnered from the trip, do not feel bad about it.
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
Of course, if they toss you a small packet of peanuts...
I always wonder where the buck stops. If a customer wants to see your facility, make every effort to accommodate them and make it available for a tour... but it's a slippery slope when you start offering a private jet, limo rides, etc. No two ways about it, you are attempting to buy their loyalty, no matter how big/small the payment.
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
From the view point of your company; it is looking for a vendor that can offer a solution. The Vendor in question, potentially has that solution but your company needs to evaluate and satisfy itself that the risk is minimal / acceptable.
I think, adopting this mentality, it is easier to objectively visit the facilityand assess its suitability. There is nothing stopping you returning saying "No", "No, but...", "We'll give you a trial" or even "Yes, you are just the thing we are looking for"
If there is no benefit to your organisation, then do not do it. If there is a benefit, that should be quantified and you should ensure that the direct benefit is tangible. ie if your company will only save $100 a year, it is probably not justified. If it saves three weeks and $100,000 per month then it is justified.
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
Slippery slope, and there's a reason politicians aren't supposed to accept such "gifts". Same should apply here...
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
Of course it does, but the point is that you've not done the same thing with any of this company's competitors; that slides it back into the subjective column. The mere fact that you've seen the inside of one factory, but not the others, already casts a bias in your mind, since you have way too much data about this one vendor. Another vendor says," We've got 150,000 sq. ft. of manufacturing floor space we can dedicate to your product," and your mental picture is of facility you visited. How can that be objective anymore?
As with the case of lobbyists, we're not talking about overt purchase of consideration, but simply, the slight bias induced by the access to your mind that was not granted to anyone else. If it wasn't effective, they wouldn't offer it, so they are expecting to sway some percentage of the people they offer this trip to.
TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
Clearly they are offering to show you around their facility to try and show they do things better than X and would like to have your business, however if they sent you a flyer in the post or a virtual tour on a flash drive they would be doing the same, if you read or watched either of those would you suddenly become incapable of making a rational and unbiased decision? Heaven forbid you should wipe the flash drive and use it for personal use.
If you paid your own airfare, could they pick you up at the airport? Once in the facility could they offer you a bottle of water or a cup of coffee or even go wild and try and bribe you with a sandwich?
It is not like the “reward” is tied to you giving them an order, you are still free to say no.
Paying your expenses to visit their facility seems perfectly acceptable to me, even if a Lear jet is extreme, just as providing you with food and drink during the visit is. Offering a personal benefit based on you giving them an order is a completely different matter.
I am just glad I work where I don’t have to comply with this political BS and for what it is worth my take would be if you can afford to do this your margins are too high we need to review the costs.
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
Every department had their own rules. One department relied on the "just because you go duck hunting in Louisiana doesn't mean that you'll act counter to the company interest. When the investigations of that department were over: (1) the VP of the department had been indicted; (2) all of his direct reports signed consent agreements to liquidate the "gifts" (up to and including a very nice condo in Vail, CO) and return the proceeds to the vendor and they were all fired; (3) with one exception everyone in the department was fired (the exception had only been in the department a month); and (4) everyone in the corporation had to sign corporate policies on gifts and we had to disclose any gift received with a value greater than $1 (including lunches) in an annual report. The simple rule that my department head implemented worked so much better.
We also had to attend annual "ethics training" where the lawyers would yell at us. One guy used an example. A vendor says "we're going to the same conference, why don't you ride with us on the corporate jet?". You accept. He offers a plant tour and you and he fly down there on their company jet. You accept. Then you are going to a meeting out of state and tell him that it is going to take you 3 days to get to a remote site and he puts the jet at your disposal. On that trip you learn that the "flight attendant" is actually a prostitute paid for by the vendor and would be delighted to provide personalized in-flight service. Then the lawyer asked if the last flight was acceptable. Most in the class said "no". Then he worked his way back toward the first flight and more people were in the "acceptable" column with each flight till most of the class thought the "we're going anyway and have an empty seat" flight was ok. The lawyer said that the corporation did not see any difference between any of the flights.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
And the last paragraph points out the exact slippery slope I tried to earlier.
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
A flash drive brochure equates to an in-plant visit and corporate jet flight? $2 vs. $3000?
TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
Certainly the appearance of impropriety is very significant not just any impropriety itself.
ConstantEffort do you have a manager you can bounce this off?
Are you in a position that if take this flight and then do buy their product that you can make a clear disclaimer about having had a visit to their factory paid by them?
Do you have colleagues or clients that would be likely to perceive this as impropriety?
Do you actually think the flight could influence your decision? As ajack mentions it might even be a negative impact if you think the fact they have a jet to fly you implies they're charging too much.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
But what is interesting is how they've restricted what activities their employees can participate in. It used to be buying a lunch for an employee was no big deal. You talked business, you talked about the kids, and you picked up the tab. I didn't expect anything. Now most utility employees politely decline a lunch invite. And the ones that will go to lunch, absolutely insist on paying for their own lunch. I went to lunch with an employee and she had to hand me $15 to cover her part. It actually was a pain for me to fill out my expenses.
I see this going this way for a while, then reverting back to a little common sense.
If you're worried about taking a jet to a facility, tell them you'll go only if you can reimburse them for the commercial cost of the transportation.
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
Reimbursing them for the cost of the trip is a bigger accounting hassle than someone giving you $15 for their lunch. And then proving that you did actually give them the money can get tricky.
A side note: I was talking to a corporate pilot a while back and he was complaining that jobs for corporate pilots were getting scarcer every year, and the FBO waiting rooms were a lot less fun than they used to be. The ethics/bribery issues are just too common and too widespread and many huge companies have eliminated their airplane departments and allow executives to charter planes when justified. I don't think we are many years from the extinction of the corporate jet being owned or long-term leased by corporations whose main business is other than flight services.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
Them paying for a commercial flight for you to make a tour of their plant - is not marginal, but it CANNOT be hidden or below-the-table: "Here's the letter, here's the ticket, this is what we will do during the tour, this is what we will demonstrate using our machinery and our jigs and our fixtures and our test apparatus."
They are selling a service for YOUR product. It is YOUR responsibility to be able to study THEIR ability to build YOUR product, and I would criticize anyone buying a critical service if they only used a computerized thumbdrive to see a PPT presentation of somebody's machining department.
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
Fortunately, we had no policy against accepting flights on corporate jets, lavish dinners and a night in a hotel, or we would have missed this opportunity for learning...but of course, some people who attended that tour did not learn the same things that I did. So it goes, and hence the justification for such policies.
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
It can be sold that way, but it isn't made that way. Make sure you tell your boss that if you accept the flight offer. You do need to see the plant floor and talk to the workers.
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
Option 1: Fly 4 guys out to see you, each of them lose 1 day of work. Jet flys both ways. Company pays for 8 meals.
Option 2: Fly you out to see the 4 guys at the factory, each of them lose 1 hour of work. Jet flys both ways. Company pays for 2 meals.
Even better if they're flying commercial.
Option 1: Fly 4 guys out to see you, each of them lose 1 day of work, company pays for 4 commercial tickets and 8 meals.
Option 2: Fly you out to see the 4 guys at the factory, each of them lose 1 hour of work, company pays for 1 commercial ticket and 2 meals.
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
RE: Vendor Facility Tour - Conflict of Interest if Transport Included?
TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers