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how to (nicely) not hire someone
20

how to (nicely) not hire someone

how to (nicely) not hire someone

(OP)
OK folks,

What wording do you use to let someone know you're not going to hire them, after an interview, and before the position is filled? I want to be kind, but also to avoid potential litigation-creation statements about why.

thanks...

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

Why not leave them with the standard comment; "Don't call us, we'll call you."

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

(OP)
John - unfortunately, not appropriate in this situation.

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

Let HR handle it - they live to create carefully worded FOAD letters

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

(OP)
truckandbus - I am HR. And the president. And accounting. And the engineer.

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

4
Keep it bland and minimally informative.

These days many places don't tell you if you haven't got the job. I kind of understand it if you were nixed during the pre screening - with web job searches etc. I'm sure some places get thousands of applicants for each job.

However, if it's got as far as the interview then a 'thanks but no thanks' doesn't seem unreasonable to expect.

"Thank you for taking the time to interview with SLTA structural engineering however, I regret to inform you that you have not been selected for the position.

We wish you success with your ongoing job search. Thank you for your interest in my company."

Or something perhaps more eloquent.

http://humanresources.about.com/od/policysamplesc/...

In the event they get back to you and ask why, then it's up to you if you add anything but I'd be very careful what if anything you say and at the very least keep it verbal.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

If they're not professional enough to handle a professionally-worded rejection....

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

(OP)
cheers, KENAT.

TheTick, exactly.

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

KENAT said exactly what I have said in the same situation. "Thanks for your time. You have not been selected." Every word is true and verifiable. If you haven't filled the position and say "We've selected another applicant" then you are lying and lies have a way of festering.

Stay professional and truthful, but not helpful. Saying "We didn't hire you because you reek of cannabis", might be a problem in Colorado or Washington, and a different problem in the other 48 states. Same with "you were twitchy" or "I hated the shirt your wore and couldn't face that every day" or "I didn't believe your resume was really about you" or "we don't hire people who are too lazy to look up what we make prior to the interview". Helpful is just asking for arguments.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

"Thank you for taking the time to interview with XYZ Engineering. While your qualifications were good, we made our decision to select another applicant based on our evaluation of the best fit our current needs. We will maintain your resume on file and look forward to considering your qualifications as future needs arise."

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

KENAT...when serving as the ersatz HR person, lying is required!lol

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

Ron,
That seems to fit into the category "telling a lie when the truth would serve you better". That was a big problem with my kids, I hate to think it is a problem in companies.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

""Thank you for taking the time to interview with XYZ Engineering."

"While your qualifications were good, we made our decision to select another applicant based on our evaluation of the best fit our current needs."

Doesn't say you've selected someone else, just that you've decided to selected someone else, anyone else, but this applicant. No lie here

"We will maintain your resume on file and look forward to considering your qualifications as future needs arise.""

We will maintain your resume in our round resume file, at least, until the janitor empties it. Since the future need to consider you will never happen, we look forward to that. No lie there.

I don't see anything actionable here. It's an excellent example of oracular exposition; it can mean anything you think it means.

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

I realize I made a flippant reply to KENAT, but I'm confused...where's the lie?

Thank you IRstuff...

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

SLTA hasn't decided to select another applicant as far as I can tell from her OP, and it's possible no one will be selected. So implying someone else has been or at least definitely will be selected is if not an outright lie then misleading.

Why even bring it up when it's quite easy to just tell them they weren't selected?

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

Every word beyond KENAT's suggested response just adds to your litigation targeting cross section.

Ask your own lawyer.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

I read it several times, and found nothing false or even misleading in Ron's statement. I think it is quite diplomatic, and is the type of explanation I would prefer to receive as an unsuccessful applicant. I don't want to just be told I wasn't chosen. Maybe it is just the way we did it in the old days, as Ron and I are old...

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

2
I suggest against saying anything about other candidates. Potential employees care nothing about the other people, so don't talk to them about it. If you mention other candidates, the current candidate could request a list of others you have considered to compare qualifications... if there is no list, the lawyers will have a field day.

The meeting was between two people about employment... don't mention other people, don't mention other (current) positions, just say your door is open for future employment if the fit should be appropriate.

Quote:

We appreciate your interest in our company and the time you spent with our interview team. We enjoyed meeting you and learning about your experience and interests. While you were not selected for this position, we encourage you to apply again in the future for openings that match your qualifications.

Short, simple, to the point. You have a business to run, so sweating over this too much is counterproductive.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

Here's another thought I don't understand either - "We appreciate your interest in joining us at Fred's Condescending Rejection Services and for taking the time to submit an application for employment. Your application will be kept on file and we will contact you again in future if a suitable position becomes available."

Do companies actually do this? Is this a forlorn hope for the rejected that one day they might just trawl through the filing cabinet on the off chance someone is still looking for a job?

As much as zdas04's recommendation probably feels like a sledgehamer to the face, the content is correct. I've seen a fair share of slightly softer worded equivalents,though, that have given away no more information than what zdas04's does.

Here's another question though, what if the candidate starts asking questions as to where they went wrong or what they could do to improve? I'm sure there are quite a number of career progression texts around that recommend exactly that.

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

hokie66....as usual, you nailed it! I think it is generational. It is still the prerogative of a company or individual to hire whomever they please, provided there is no direct discrimination in the process. I've been hiring and firing people for over 35 years...I see no reason to change my approach. Geez hokie...we are old!

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

FreddyNurk - It happened to me. Interviewed in April 1988 to replace retiring staff engineer. Did not get the job as they hired a younger, probably cheaper candidate. Got rejection letter with - "Will keep your resume on file . . . Yadda, Yadda, Yadda".

Got a phone call in November, from Department Manager, as they were increasing staff due to new Greenfield addition that had been approved for 1989. They had reviewed previous interview candidates and I apparently had not been trash canned in April. No new interview. Asked if interested and then had job offer formalized within a couple of days.

Required relocation; but 20% pay increase, moving expenses covered, shorter commute, and closer to both of our families. No brainer.

Worked side by side with previous hire and three years later was promoted above him.

gjc

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

The follow-up questions really suck. I had an exchange like:

"Sorry, you were not selected for the job"

"I understand, could you tell me what I could have done differently to have gotten it?"

"Your background preparation was not strong enough for us to feel that you could handle the job on day 1"

"What preparation would I have had to have to have made the cut?"

"You have no experience in xxx, yyy, and xyz, all three of those are key"

"But I did ..."

You never get out of that loop. I had one guy who purported to be an expert in pipeline modeling because he "attended a presentation by another team in his senior design class that did a pipeline model for their project". He got in a huff when I said hearing about someone else's work is not quite the same as doing the work yourself. I have found it best just to say "your were not selected, I cannot discuss the deliberations of the team that made the selection". It sucks, but life is too short to get into the endless loop.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

To speak as someone who has been on the "rejected" side many times, I have always asked via letter to be informed of the reason for the rejection.

I haven't always received a response and I realized the company was likely just protecting themselves.

Realizing that I was not going to change anybody's mind, I did not rebut the responses I received.

I received some very good feedback on where I was deficient in their opinion. Some of the issues were things I could change, some I could not.

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

I've always respected the decisions of folks on the deciding side of the hiring game. They have their needs. It's not my place to tell them what those needs are.

Likewise, you need to be OK with the fact that you are hiring to fill YOUR needs, not the applicant's. Your ship, your crew.

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

(OP)
Thanks, everybody. This has been an enlightening conversation.

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

Quote (Ron)


"Thank you for taking the time...

However diplomatic this is, this known in many circles as a PFO letter.

--
JHG

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

I had the opposite questions when I took this current job. Two companies I had contact with were looking to hire me. One was faster with the offer, had a more diverse clientele and it was more than I was asking for. The company I rejected came back and asked why I had chosen the other company over them.

"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."

Ben Loosli

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

When I was a student, we referred to these as FOAD letters, the last letters standing for "...and die". They serve to communicate one thing only: you were not selected, don't waste your time or ours by calling us about this position.

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

FOAD is still widely used within the mining industry....... we never were known for our social niceties

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

I send out FOAD quotes to clients I'm not interested in working with. If they don't accept the high rate, no skin off of my nose. If they do, I suck it up and make some serious bank.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

MacGyver- we refer to those a little more politely as "PFO quotes", with the P standing for "please". We treat prospective but difficult clients with more deference than interview candidates I guess.

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

Why is it necessary to write a letter to the applicant prior to the position being filled? SLTA sounds like a one man company, not General Motors. I would prefer to wait until the position has been filled, then advise him of the decision.

BA

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

Quote (BAretired)

Why is it necessary to write a letter to the applicant prior to the position being filled?
Because the candidate is a human being with his own life to deal with... leaving him hanging in the balance until you're able to find someone to fill the spot is needless torture. When you've made a decision about the candidate, tell them. It's the fair thing to do rather than stringing them along.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone



Quote (MacGyvers)

Because the candidate is a human being with his own life to deal with... leaving him hanging in the balance until you're able to find someone to fill the spot is needless torture. When you've made a decision about the candidate, tell them. It's the fair thing to do rather than stringing them along.

In that case, it would seem fair to tell him (nicely) why you have decided not to hire him.

BA

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

As an interviewer, it would be "nice" to know exactly what I could do better: Did I overprice myself, but had the right skillset and the right presentation? Did I not have the skill set that job actually wanted? Did that company want a younger person they could "mold" rather than an experienced person who might be more rigid? ??Right skill set and good interview, but somebody else was a superstar? Right skillset but poor interview?

Realistically, that ain't gonna happen under most circumstances. However, it is very nice - very important - to know absolutely that I should NOT wait or postpone any other decision thinking/hoping that I am going to get a second interview!

Each person actually interviewed should get a confirmation letter saying there will be no further interviews.

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

And, if there were two positions open, or if the company were to hire again in the next weeks, I (as the person accepted for an interview), NEED absolutely to know whether I need to apply again, or if the first interview and its review and selection process will keep my name "open" for the second job.

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

Quote (SLTA)

I am HR. And the president. And accounting. And the engineer.

Based on the above, this is a one man firm who needs a new employee. Before the interview has concluded, the interviewer has formed certain impressions of the applicant and probably knows then whether or not he would be suitable for the job. The applicant probably has a pretty good idea from the tone of the conversation whether or not he was successful.

Why not tell the applicant at that time that he is not suitable? What is the point in waiting and writing a letter? No new information is going to be made available between the time of the interview and the writing of the letter.

Tell him immediately and tell him why. Skip the letter.

BA

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

BARetired,
Have you ever done a job interview? If at the end of it you find you have been talking to a slug you'd never hire in this lifetime, saying "Thanks for your time, don't expect to EVER hear from me" prompts another discussion that just sucks ("what did I do wrong", "I can do better", "just give me a chance", "my mom always gives me three chances", "you're and asshole"). I've done some interviews that, if I'd have told the slug why I never wanted to even think about his name again, he'd have punched me and then I'd have had to spend the rest of the day with police and coroners and other people who don't make me money.

Telling them at the interview also implies that you've made a snap decision and that gives them hope that they can influence you to back off and make a reasoned decision.

The one paragraph "thanks but no thanks" letter (preferably with a sloppily affixed signature stamp) is better all around.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

zdas,
The answer to your question is yes but not very often. I ran a small consulting business from 1969 until I retired in 2008. I guess I was lucky...never ran into a slug applying for a job so the problem you describe never arose.

On the other hand, I ran into similar types of people (slugs?) who walked into the office with unreasonable demands or expectations. You deal with them politely but firmly and I would suggest the same could be done with prospective hires.

BA

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

I got my first job after the owner said they would keep my resume on file, as they found someone more qualified than me. But then was hired less than a month later.

I have gone to interviews over the years just to see what was out there, and the last one basically hired me on the spot, but I had to think about it and asked to please let me know if you fill the position before I give an answer. Never got a response back after that. So no answer ever again seems to work.

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer
http://bwengr.com

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

There will always be totally unqualified individuals, but the way I look at it, if I was interviewing a person, I would want to spend the few minutes it takes to help an almost qualified person along on their career path. It doesn't take much effort to do this and, in my opinion, would be more of a professional courtesy. And you may have the opportunity to interview them again in the future, once they gained more experience, and then hire them.

If somebody could not extend that to an interviewee, I would wonder if anybody would want to work for them in the first place.

If they seem to only want to convince me to change my mind - I then would firmly end the interview and go on.

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

I have a similar issue with bidders on projects I have designed. If for instance a glass supplier gave us a quote for the supply of some material, and we went with someone else, how do I tell the unsuccessful guy that they didn't get the order? The usual M.O. is just to not get back to them, but I always feel bad about it.

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

If you think you might ask for a quote from them again, I suggest informing them why they didn't win the bid. NOTE: This is different than a job interview... you don't expect to ask the same interviewees back time and again. If their bids are too high, but only by a small amount, they may lower them to gain your business. If they're out of the ballpark, they may misunderstand what your project intentions are. If you continually ignore them, eventually they'll just stop bidding, and then you're stuck with a single source that's free to charge what they want.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

...and to add an overlay of complexity, not all bids are evaluated on price alone, so if you want to widen your supplier-base, you probably need to tell the cheapest one that he needs to lift his game in whatever respects he fell over on.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

MacGyver - as GregLocock said, it is not about price alone for us, and if you do get back to suppliers about why they didn't win, you run the risk of them getting into an emotional discussion about why they feel like they deserve the work, especially if they were cheaper. I kind of like the idea of the form letter for bidders - keep it dry and uninformative beyond letting them know they can send the job to their archives.

I should also say that I prefer relationships to transactions, and try to minimize the shopping around.

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

When I've done bids, I've been very careful to notify the non-winners that they didn't get it, but I've also been very careful not to give them ANY information that they could use in court (slander suits are a bitch). They get a "thanks for submitting, your bid was not selected" letter. Attorney's have told me that any information beyond that (e.g., "there was a lower bidder", "we didn't find your references compelling", "we didn't feel that your company had a chance in hell of pulling it off", "last time we used you we had to hire someone else to clean up the mess") could easily be grounds for a slander or restraint of trade suit. My experience has been that too many times the low bidder is a bottom feeding slimeball who will sue you just to annoy you. Other times, the low bidder has a better handle on the project than the high bidders and should be selected.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

Slander is making a false accusation that harms someone's reputation. You cannot be sued for slander because someone else was charging less... that's just silly. It's a fact that cannot be argued. Company 1 bids $1, Company 2 bids $2... Company 1 wins because Company 2's bid was higher.

Making the claim they probably couldn't pull it off, okay, that could be used against you.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

It is a lot less silly if you had said "Thank you for bidding, we found your qualifications inadequate for this project" or "While your bid was the lowest, your track record indicates that you will ignore it from the moment it is awarded". There are a lot of reasons to reject someone, and the advice I got was that many of them are actionable. Don't fuel that fire.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

I don't typically do public work, where bids are often restricted to selection of the low bidder. In my contract documents, I make it clear that the owner may select any contractor without regard to their bid ranking or select no contractor. For the award, I simply say that their bid was deemed by the owner to be responsive and that the owner now wishes to discuss their bid. For the rejection, I say that the owner selected another contractor.

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

This has gone slightly off track, but its not a bad comparison to make.

I used to think that most companies wouldn't bother chasing such things as unsuccessful tenders, until I came across a whole heap of lawsuit documentation from one of my former employers who kept attempting to take local authorities to the cleaners for writing their tenders that excluded their products.

What it does undoubtedly indicate, though, is just how much fun they would have been to negotiate with if they had won the relevant tender, which may well be part of the issue of having to reject a potential hire.

I'm sure that no one includes a contingency sum in their tender costing to fend off lawsuits from unsuitable tenderers, and I sure as hell hope it never gets that far. Same goes for hiring turkeys.

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

David: it's always a good idea to add something like, "We reserve the right to select any proposal, or no proposal, at our sole discretion." to any RFQ. The only time you can't do that is in public tenders.

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

We are all at one time or another both rejected and the rejector, so when we have the power to reject we should do so responsibly. Organizations which negotiate overly vigorously with bidders in my opinion deserve to get sued. There is a mentality among owners sometimes that more bids are better. More bids equals more bidders wasting substantial amounts of time assembling prices, and more bad blood among your supplier base. If you are in the business of buying things which are not commodities (as most of us are), you need the good will of your supplier during the project, and on the next project. If you are buying a pure liquid commodity like raw materials or electricity, its a different picture.

Same is true with a firm looking to hire an engineer. Interviewing 50 people for the job is not cool.

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

glass99: what you said is definitely true. We're very mindful of wasting people's time asking for firm prices when all we need is a budget number, and I watch certain people carefully to make sure there is no reverse auctioning or other unfair negotiation going on. I also make sure that I don't pass the clever idea of one supplier on a better way to solve a particular problem cheaply so he wins, on to his competitors- that's his innovation and he owns it, since I didn't pay for it. Some of our clients try this stuff on us but I won't do it to my suppliers. But I do reserve the right to judge the value of a proposal and credibility of the people proposing it independently from the price, on the basis of my gut alone. Anyone bidding to me and thinking that they can buy the work with a cheap price alone is fairly warned up front that that just ain't necessarily so.

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

8
Once upon a time, after going through four interviews, an interviewer-imposed psychological assessment, and a myriad of other cuckoo things, at the end of the fourth interview, the following conversation transpired:

[INTERVIEWER]: It has come down to you and another candidate. We will be choosing the other candidate. After having gotten to know you, while your qualifications are impressive, we feel that you do not appear to have a sense of humour and you do not communicate willingly with people whom you consider to be less intelligent than yourself.

[SNORGY]: I am here talking to you, aren't I?

I didn't get the job. Two days later, they fired the guy who did. I never did find out what happened to their psychologist. I heard a rumour that he went on to get an MBA.

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

And a round of applause for Snorgy please!

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

SNORGY, what a Dilbert moment. I love it.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

Great thread. At the beginning of the summer, I interviewed 2 excellent candidates for one intern position. It was really rough to choose, but choose I had to do. Telling the unsuccessful candidate was most unpleasant, but I told him quickly so as not to keep him hanging. I basically told him that I thought he had a very bright but I could only choose one. As it turns out the one I chose misrepresentated his interest in the type of work we do and made no secret that he would rather be doing something else. I really wish I had made the offer to the other one.

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

graybeach,

Is it still possible to offer him an internship next summer?

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

Snorgy, that was beautiful!

Maui

RE: how to (nicely) not hire someone

SNORGY....you are my hero!

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