Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
(OP)
Hi,
I come across specifications on large projects from "reputed" Global oil companies with valve casting sourcing restrictions stating No China, No India. However none of them seem to establish what is the reason for this restriction. What measures could be adapted to stop these restrictive practices?
I come across specifications on large projects from "reputed" Global oil companies with valve casting sourcing restrictions stating No China, No India. However none of them seem to establish what is the reason for this restriction. What measures could be adapted to stop these restrictive practices?





RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
If a product is purchased from an international source and it fails, costing lives and millions of dollars there is no reasonable recourse for the purchaser. The lawsuit can be held up in international courts (read China and India)for decades. The seller is only responsible for the original contract price.
The seller, as we both know, has usually evaporated by this time.....
For some heavy industrial components, such as forgings and castings, failure is immediate and devastating. These types of components are more difficult to inspect once delivered from the originating country
However, if the buyer and seller are in the same country, consequential damages can be sought and collected.
This failure to meet international quality standards has legal teeth in the USA, Canada and the EU.
I don't believe that anyone can consider these restrictive practices without studying the history.
In my opinion, this is more of a case of "once bitten, twice shy"......
MJCronin
Sr. Process Engineer
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
Thanks for your inputs. On the point about compliance to international standards, there are several foundries in China / India that comply to all international standards, certified by international agencies like Lloyds, CRN, TUV etc.. have all the necesary ISO certs (ISO 9001) and are probably more modern compared to several NA, European foundries. Also if the concern is purely legal then why not NO REST OF WORLD (other than NA, Europe, why not No Australia, No Middle East, NO LA) and why just India & China? These restrictive practices seems to be paranoia around China / India castings and not based on credible evidence / reasons. As an Engineer I am concerned with such arbitary clause. Not sure if this is a professional way of managing these concerns.
Jumanji1
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
Personal experience with off shore sources includes having to deal with a part which was to be made in CF8M (Cast 316), there were brittle failures during installation and the investigation showed that the material was actually a ferritic stainless steel similar to CB-30.
Would I want the liability of dealing with suppliers like that? No way.
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
As mjcronin has stated "once bitten, twice shy" is applicable.
Both China and India have been guilty of supplying poor quality materials in the past.
As a result they have poor "reputations" when it comes to supplying quality items.
However, I agree totally with you regarding "some" manufacturers - they are putting out products equivalent to anywhere in the world (I can only speak for China where I have been involved in auditing various companies).
Regaining "reputations" doesn't happen overnight - once it is proven that quality products are being produced then the purchasing requirements will be relaxed. (IMHO)
In addition, if you want quality you have to pay for it and maybe specifications are written to stop the purchasing department buying the cheapest items they can find ????
Cheers,
DD
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
More cynically, ISO and similar certifications are often over rated. Firstly if often just means you have a documented proces that 'says what you are going to do' and have some system to 'verify that you did it' doesn't necessarily directly imply reliably high quality out put. Secondly, the audit system itself is often smoke and mirrors. It's not that hard to fool an auditor. (Although perhaps ironically from personal experience it can be hard to get them to change their mind when they misunderstand something and claim a non compliance where there isn't one.)
So the situation is arguably unfair to any genuinely good suppliers in those countries, however the risk to safety and the oil companies bottom line is probably not perceived to be justified by the potentially lower cost etc.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=194913
MJCronin
Sr. Process Engineer
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
Thankyou for your inputs so far.
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
Example: A (huge) company that I had worked for sourced a large welded assembly (a bit larger in size than a boxcar) to China.
The item arrived and it was found that some of the welds were painted over putty. I do not know the history of this Chinese company's quality proceedures or how they were deemed qualified but as noted above, "once bitten twice shy". News articles, restrictive practices and trade barriers had nothing to do with the quality of goods received.
“Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively.”
-Dalai Lama XIV
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
The real problem is that the issue essentially revolves around "quality", which is an impossible term to really apply rational credible numbers or calculations to. I think as has been said before on other posts and above is that certain things, casting of which are one, are sometimes very difficult to inspect or check prior to final hydro test which is where any faults would hopefully be found. By then nearly 2/3 of the schedule for the valves, which are often a critical time line item, will have gone and hence huge delay or costs ensue. Are good high quality manufacturers regarded the same - Yes I'm afraid they are, but until a long list of high quality items are established then it is not a fight you can win.
Clearly whoever the companies are, have their reasons, but they have that right and many are now very risk averse, especially for environmental damage and any failure of a component which causes damage or injures someone is a very big issue. As many of these companies work world wide, they can gather a lot of data about root cause of incidents and near misses, operational data etc and have decided that the lower cost of items such as valve castings is not worth the higher risk. Wait 5 years and it may go away.
My motto: Learn something new every day
Also: There's usually a good reason why everyone does it that way
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
2. We were seeking a supplier in China. We audited and inspected 10 facilities. We placed orders with three and witnessed the production of the trial orders. We approved one supplier. Even with us there many of the documented procedures were not followed. And information was recorded that was never actually measured.
It is largely a cultural (work place, not national) issue. When failure to comply with codes, standards, and procedures costs peoples jobs and personal reputations then there will be conformance. As of today in many firms in many countries this is not the case. There is no repercussion for failure, and in some cases the worker is discouraged from doing the job right since it costs more.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Plymouth Tube
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
China has a well deserved reputation for producing crap.
Best regards - Al
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
Learn from the mistakes of others. You don't have time to make them all yourself.
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
China has a well deserved reputation for producing crap.
india more so. both esp. if you only choose on the lowest price.
i know of a local pneumatics producer that outsources castings to south korea.
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
I do agree that there are some excellent sources of top quality material available from these regions. But the purchaser must do extra work to ensure they get it. If you simply purchase material from China and India based on lowest price and an ISO-9000 certificate, you are going to have problems.
It is really the same problem everywhere. Contracts using only the lowest bidder process inherently suffer delays and quality problems at some point. Someone is going to take a short-cut in order to win the job with a lower price.
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
When you source from within your own country, you can sue for breech of contract and get relief, if the item is defective.
Not so much if the item is sourced from another country...!!!
MJCronin
Sr. Process Engineer
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
Al
Best regards - Al
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
Not sure what the follow-up on this incident was. I find it rather interesting that according to the first 9 January post in the thread Would anybody contend that this is somehow an unfair / unprofessional / unethical ban? Is it not reasonable that independent companies would on occasion concur with the Chinese government when procuring critical equipment for their facilities?
Now to be fair, this incident was being discussed 7 years ago, but a stained reputation is difficult and time consuming to repair.
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
You are correct in that it is easier to sue someone wihtin your own country. However, in many cases like this, the foundry who you would sue due to breech of contract may have little to no value and could hardly pay reparations near to the value of the damage they caused. So they go bankrupt and out of business. Unfortunately, there are fewer and fewer foundries in regions where the legal system is effective and the foundries have sufficient value and insurance to cover the risk. Customers push hard for the made in China price, but they do not want the made in China material risk. The typical Purchasing vs Operations tug-of-war in a company. In my opinion, which is worth just that, the situation is not getting any better. Nor is it getting any worse. And there is little to no leverage being applied to force change from the established leagal systems.
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2014-...
US steel industry criticises WTO ruling favouring India
Double standards as usual!!
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
The east is equally likely to complain about such practices. Worth noting that Japan will not allow the import of many agricultural products even at high prices, such as beef and apples, preferring to protect its domestic producers "at all costs". Let's complain about something like that. None of this is east/west prejudice. It's unfair competition.
Sell your product for its fair value; what it costs to produce plus transportation, time value of money and any quality premiums you think your product deserves, or can demand in the market place, and you can do it. Take your prejudice argument elsewhere.
you must get smarter than the software you're using.
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
Prohibiting procurement of goods from an entire country is totally unfair. It is just as ineffective to use a country of origin as a proxy for quality as is using a brand name for the same purpose. It is also totally impractical when one of those countries is the location in which a huge swath of the world's manufactured goods are now made. But it is done by some because they do not have the wherewithal to put the enormous effort into assuring the quality of manufactured articles at every step in their manufacture, and they have to be seen to be doing something- anything.
What we do instead is to bear the cost of a middleman- a distributor- who has assets here we can claim against, and who does enough business in China that they can sink the effort required into qualifying mills and doing additional quality testing prior to procurement. We do get burned every once in a while, and the costs to us are greater than the value of the material which we must replace after the fact, even though the distributor replaces it free of charge. We also find that some products are just harder to manufacture with acceptable quality than others so we know where to focus our efforts. In some cases that means banning that material form entirely, or restricting it to certain suppliers for whom we have some evidence of an ability to make it right.
As to the notion of trade protectionism, private (non government) entities can discriminate on any basis they see fit, just as individuals are. They are free to take their business where they will, and to deny it to whoever they want. They can avoid purchasing from your country, or from your firm or even from you personally because they don't like you for whatever reason- even for reasons you might find completely disgusting. It is not protectionism- it is freedom. You can only hope that other people, who understand that arbitrary discrimination is bad for business, will out-compete them and put them out of business.
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
I am not about to fly to China or India to ferret out the one or two suppliers that provide quality products. I simply avoid products from countries that have proven to provide substandard products. Until they learn the hard lessons that they need to provide products that meet or exceed customer expectations, they will have to live with the consequences of their past practices and well earned reputations for providing shoddy workmanship and subpar products.
Price isn't the only tool used when making purchasing decisions. Quality counts. The burden isn't on the consumer. We vote with our pocketbook and we owe no allegiance to a company or a country that has earned a poor reputation. Reputations are earned by one's actions.
Best regards - Al
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
I have gensets fabricated in China by reputed European firms, at highest quality I could ask. I have had great satisfaction with engineering and fabrication of production separator supplied by Godrej in India, highest class of professionalism. Very mixed feelings, but overall one should avoid purchase from any un-prequalified Chinese or Indian vendor. The pre-qualification obviously done by your company, not a nice internet reference...
Cheers,
gr2vessels
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
(because castings, due to their very nature, are such a risk for the purchaser
Does anyone know if the is there such a thing or what problems there would be in such an approach ?
MJCronin
Sr. Process Engineer
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
I am always wary of reference lists like these because of the risk of fraud. It's easy to picture the manufacturer making up names and providing positive reviews for their own products.
Unless the list can be vetted in a meaningful way, I'd be nervous.
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
Below is a link to the Oakland Bay Bridge that focuses on Chinesse faulty welds and Caltrans unacceptable oversight.
http://www.sacbee.com/news/investigations/bay-brid...
Also an article on cast iron soil piping made in China.
http://www.propertycasualty360.com/2014/08/14/is-c...
Besides being loyal to USA foundaries, there is a reason for now buying China produced fittings.
Robert
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
MJCronin,
I knew there was a Lloyds Register for Filler Metal Manufacturers (Manufacturing plants audited by Lloyds) so thought I would see if they do Castings.
Hope this helps,
https://www.cdlive.lr.org/information/Documents%5C...
Cheers,
DD
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
If you want better material don't always look to buy cheap.
Further China and India are the biggest casting manufacturers. Even if you buy a valve made in Europe or USA, chances are that the body castings were made in China or India
RE: Sourcing Restrictions- No China No India Castings
Yep, but then I have somebody I can sue if there are defects. Keeps everybody honest. [and increases the cost slightly]. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
And India is my preferred source for SA-105 flange forgings. Excellent price, excellent quality. But not large castings, without a Source Inspection. Thus the purchase via a US or EU vendor. We are too small to Source anything other than pressure vessels, so just let the vendor handle it. With recourse to an effective lawsuit if they sell us junk.