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Training Young Engineers
19

Training Young Engineers

Training Young Engineers

(OP)
The last post (as of this date) in this thread, http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=366529, makes the joke that new engineers are a liability for the first two years and should actually be paying the organization for putting up with them. While obviously an exaggeration, sadly my own experience with young engineers over the last two or three years wouldn't put me far off of believing this!

Instead of railing on about the quality of education, work ethic, etc of newly minted engineering grads, I'd like to propose a different question. What are some steps someone like me, a mid-senior level engineer, can do to better train young engineers and get them to the point where they are capable of flying on their own?

The challenge is two-fold:

1) They don't have the technical skills necessary to become productive and need 'taught' everything it seems.
2) In a small company, there are not the resources available to dedicate to a formalized mentoring/training program.

PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

RE: Training Young Engineers

I think it really depends on the attitude of the grad.
With most things in life you pick them up a bit at a time and generally the people that put in the most effort and work the hardest get to the top, some will have more natural talent or find it easier but hard work, determination and shear bloody-mindedness can take you a long way.
I am not sure people are any different today to they have ever been, but society has changed people’s expectations and belief in how good they are.
We have gone from yes sir how high would you like me to jump to nobody tells me how to jump and I can jump better than you anyway.

RE: Training Young Engineers

5
Pick good ones. The best way to do this is to hire and PAY them as co-op students. Consider it a 4 or 8 month interview, except one that actually works for determining the "fit" of the person to the work environment.

Hire the best of those. There's the trick- being small, you can't hire the very best one every year- so your choices need to be made even more carefully.

Give them responsibility for something they're competent to do- even a fresh grad is competent to do LOTS- we get tons of productive and creative and carefully executed work out of our students, much less our junior hires. Answer questions. Provide resources and advice, the latter sometimes unbidden. Monitor their performance. Check their work. Provide constructive feedback. Increase/broaden their responsibility. Repeat.

We also make them do technical refresher/specialist training seminars for the whole group, with one of the more senior people acting as mentor. Motivates some learning in depth.

We see no attitude problems indicative of a generational difference in our junior staff. Nobody brings their mommy in to negotiate salary with us etc. All we see is a diversity of personality types, work styles and levels of skill/access to their education. No different than young engineers have ever been.

RE: Training Young Engineers

Unfortunately, the reality of most business is that no one in management wants to spend the money necessary to make much progress on something like this.

There multiple factors at work:
> no one wants to spend contract dollars doing OJT of a new hire, because they know the new hire will have low productivity and needs lots of help
> no one wants to spend MORE contract dollars on a senior engineer with lowered productivity, because they're helping the new hire
> no one has so much fat that they could do this on overhead, although, that would be much cheaper
> in lean times, there are so few projects and they are leanly funded, so mostly junior engineers are used to keep the margins positive, and there's no margin to absorb the training of the new employee



The end result is that the new hire has low productivity much longer than what might even be a reasonable period of time.

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RE: Training Young Engineers

2
People that try to run professional businesses with staffing on a "just in time" basis are going to suffer some unpleasant consequences. Many businesses have convinced themselves that they can't afford to hire young people and train them. I'm hoping that the coming demographic shift wipes them off the face of the earth.

There's the old joke where the accountant says, "What if we spend money training people and they leave?" To which some wise person replies, "What if we don't spend money training them and they STAY?"


RE: Training Young Engineers

If your graduates are coming out of school lacking the technical background necessary to meet your goals, then either you're hiring the wrong students or you're hiring from the wrong school. Typically entry-level engineers have the math skills, know the basic design equations, it just takes time to learn how to apply them appropriately in the real world.

Be upfront and honest with your expectations of them. Challenge young engineers to try to solve the problem, and propose a potential solution for your review rather than just simply asking "how do I do this?" This will help them grow and take the stress of constant questions off of you.

RE: Training Young Engineers

Moltenmetal,
I have never thought of internship/co-op as a multi-month job interview, but that is exactly what it is. After reading your two posts, I think you have given the OP exactly the solution to his issue.

I look at the "Challenger" style of new hire process (i.e., for the first 3 years a new hire has to take a pre-defined list of courses, fill 3 jobs under the supervision of a local mentor, and suck up to some head office "coordinator") and see abject failure time after time. Some of the mentors are great and their "grads" leave with the potential to contribute, but most of the mentors either ignore the grads or refuse to let them fail by smothering them. Unfortunately the over-protective and neglectful models are most common (not everyone has the ability to be a mentor). Most of the pre-defined courses are worthless for the person's eventual first non-Challenger job. The structure of those programs tend to cause more failures than successes. With the looser structure of most summer-dummy programs it is much easier to evaluate their performance vs. your needs instead of against some irrelevant "norm".

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

RE: Training Young Engineers

3
David, we're very glad we figured this out as an organization- it's been one of the keys to our continued growth and success. It's kind of stupid that we didn't know it from the get-go, because three quarters of the founders were engineers who had been through co-op education- yet for the first long while when I worked there, we had no co-ops and almost no fresh grad hires. The trigger was that we discovered the hard way that we were crap at hiring senior people- even with professional help. We've discovered that in our niche business, to be truly effective, engineers need to be fabricated from properly selected raw materials rather than merely being selected from a candidate pool. Too many of the seniors we hired were either broken beyond our ability to repair, or too work-hardened to allow themselves to be molded into what the business needed them to be. Not their fault- entirely ours for picking the wrong people. At the same time that the seniors were failing, the co-ops I brought in were succeeding, and fortunately we learned from that. It hasn't been 100% perfect- there are always some problem children, some turnover due to issues beyond our control- people are people- and sometimes you let the market tell you to hire too many people at once or to let good ones go by because you have no immediate use for them, but that's business I guess.

Yes, we had to take some senior engineers, myself included, out of their comfort zone, lose some of their productivity in the short term, and force them to mentor and train as part of their duties- but now their productivity is amplified greatly by the team of smart and comparatively inexpensive young people who they have to draw their teams from. Some of the seniors are better at it than others, some mollycoddle, some ignore or delegate the training to someone mid-level, and some micromanage, and each has their own style of work. We try our best to get each junior to go through a project under the mentorship of each of us, gradually allowing them to develop a hybrid style of work which suits them best. There's of course a desire on the part of some to standardize all our work practices around THEIR workstyle, but the others resist it. But the ones uncomfortable working without a well-defined single set of rules to follow are weeded out as co-ops because they don't fit the existing work culture here, so it causes us comparatively few problems.

RE: Training Young Engineers

(OP)
Molten/Dave - This is some good info. I wanted to get out of the philosophical 'feel good' answers and get to real experiences. I think everyone knows how it should work and can give the quick ideological answers to these type of questions, but it's understanding the execution of this that really makes the difference.

Molten, in your experience what do you think of the sink or swim mentality? I have tried emulating my own experience in my first job in construction where the superintendent would throw a project at us and let us flounder a little to figure it out. I understand now that it was never out of his control but we definitely felt the pressure of getting it right because we felt as though it was all on us. He probably knew the answer before we came back with it but I think this was very beneficial to me as a younger engineer to feel this pressure. Do you share similar experiences with your young hires?

Dave, in regards to your post and in context with what I said above, do you think tilting slightly towards the hands off approach would be more successful than towards the over protective side?

PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

RE: Training Young Engineers

3
Man, if you got the five of us together in one room, poured us all a few beers and then asked that question, you'd get a really interesting discussion- probably pretty loud too.

Sink or swim versus micromanaging? I have no patience for micromanaging. We agree that the pressure is necessary- we do try to get them to stand on their own on a small job as soon as possible. My natural tendency is toward sink or swim, but I do have very strong opinions and don't let projects I'm working on go too far wrong in the initial assumptions so some of them find me meddlesome. But I can't check everything and don't even try. If I were hired as a checker, I'd be fired immediately- I can find the one or two major screw-ups at least as well as anybody in the office, but lack the discipline to focus on the number-by-number checking that some people manage to do.

It's a case by case, person-by-person, task by task decision. Some people have a work style which allows me to trust their judgment a bit even when their competence is very limited- I prefer to judge results than to review intermediate product. Others want constant confirmation that they're on the right track- and within reason I try to give it to them, until they start driving me nuts. Some of them don't have judgment I can trust- yet- and I'm not gentle about bringing them back to what I consider to be the right path when they stray too far from it. Major screw-ups made by carelessness or laziness get taken up a notch and noted during their review, along with things they did better than expectations. The good ones don't make those errors or find them by their own checking (or use other juniors to help them check), and if they ever do, they discipline themselves more severely than we ever could.

Still learning how to do this, and probably not actually getting better at it- but the staff themselves are getting better so that's taking some of the pressure off.

RE: Training Young Engineers

2
The best mentor I've known (it decidedly was not me) had a modified sink-or-swim technique that worked better than any other I've ever seen. He gave you an assignment, if you had questions he took the time to answer. Once a week he scheduled some time (at really sucky times of day, 5 am, 7 pm, whatever worked for his schedule that week) to have you tell him about your progress. He was not kind or in any way gentle (I'm still missing some parts of my anatomy 30 years later), but at the end of the session you knew what your next steps needed to be and you knew the strengths/weaknesses of your efforts for that week). In other words he would throw you into water just over your head and not leave you on your own quite long enough to drown, no matter what it felt like. I knew another so-called mentor that would give a guy a project and then wait for the final report--when it was crap he'd say something like "that is why I gave you an unimportant assignment because you lack the ability to do anything worthwhile".

The very best outcomes result from having the interns do something that you in-fact want done and giving them the latitude to do it while staying on the lookout for major course correction requirements.

It is never 100%, how can it be with people? I believe that this technique of a multi-month job interview gives you a great chance of beating the odds. If you hire someone into a "Challenger" program then getting rid of them is really painful and we tend to not get rid of the ones that should be out the door. In a co-op configuration if you get a slug then you don't ask them back and you are only out their nominal salary for the summer and the mentor's time.

I get accused of using too many anecdotes (and my signature used to assert that the "plural of anecdote is not data"), but I find they are useful in illuminating the conversation. When my son was starting engineering school I told him that on day 1 he needed to start work on lining up a co-op. He went to his adviser (an academic who had never worked as an engineer) and asked how to make that happen. His adviser said that the school of engineering did not endorse co-op programs and that everything he needed to be a practicing engineer was included in his coursework. I later learned that fewer than 30% of the engineering graduates in that school did not have a job lined up on graduation day. The year I graduated (admittedly a long time ago and from a different university), 100% of the co-op students in my school had jobs at graduation day; as opposed to 70% of the non co-op students (about 15% of the graduating class in engineering that year didn't have jobs). People stopped going to my son's school to hire engineers because they graduated totally innocent of how to be an engineer.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

RE: Training Young Engineers

I'm on the side of sink or swim. Obviously it depends on the individual to step up, but when they do, you get a better engineer. When they don't, someone else has an "opportunity".

Agree with MM an zdas04...great comments and discussion.

RE: Training Young Engineers

I like the idea that a co-op be given real work that was going to be done anyway. That's what I was given in the places I worked as a student.

I had the benefit of one of those degree courses that reqired you to find an industrial sponsor (and only from a list they gave you). You needed to get that sponsor yourself and work for them in an engineering position for a year before university. Precisely the opposite of one of the previous comments here. Summer placements too and a notional year after graduation. At the end it was expected that you would have an option to work for them. They also expected to retain some of the students - enough to make it all worthwhile.

As part of this course we got to meet up for regular seminars, where we could compare notes about our sponsors and the kind of work they'd got us to do. Mostly it was real work.

I did ask my HR manager why the company threw all this money at a bunch of school leavers with no guarantee of a return. He said that it was the most cost-effective way they knew of for producing young engineers.

- Steve

RE: Training Young Engineers

Steve,
If you don't mind saying, what school was that? A program that amazing should be advertised. I'm sure that with that kind of experience you went into the theoretical classes with real-world questions that gave you a far better understanding of the theory.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

RE: Training Young Engineers

Back to the OP.
What I like to do with new or newish engineers is to give them a completed project, done by an experienced engineer, to review. That way they see how a project is put together, learn to read drawings, hopefully develop a questioning attitude. It's not the most efficient or thorough review, but every once in a while they catch something. Plus they get to contribute right away.
The next step is to give them a project that's already roughly laid out and have them do the calculations. And no computer software. All hand calculations. I need to have engineers, not button pushers. They'll get their computer work soon enough. Once again, not super efficient, but a way to learn.
Then the other tasks. Submittal reviews, editing specifications, answering field questions, etc. After a while, they're ready to do their own projects, design their own buildings.
One thing that's good about our licensing laws, is that there's no way for any new engineer to seal their own work. Somewhere, a licensed engineer has to take "reasonable charge."
Co-ops are great, I guess, but there's no way that a majority of engineers are going to go that route. And at bigger companies, it needs to be a corporate decision, so our little opinions might not mean a thing. We need to be able to bring in fresh engineers and make them useful and productive from as early as possible.
Finally, let's not forget the role in the engineer themself. They need to show initiative and interest enough to ask questions and learn by doing. Not everyone is going to work out. And no amount of training in the world can change that.

RE: Training Young Engineers

David,

School: Imperial College, London.
Course: BEng Mechanical Engineering Total Technology

The course itself was started in '74 and was still going strong when I finished in '90.

I can't see the course listed on the university WWW site any more unfortunately. I remember Brunel University offering something very similar at the time (also UK), but with 4 half-ans-half years to get a BEng - it looks like it still exists in some form. A few of my co-op colleagues back then were Brunel boys & girls. Brunel used to find sponsor companies if you couldn't find one yourself. Several other British universities were offering (promoting) the 1-3-1 approach back then too.

- Steve

RE: Training Young Engineers

more...

I had a look through the Brunel site and found: http://www.brunel.ac.uk/services/pcc/about-us/serv... So it seems that Brunel still run these type of courses and do still provide assistance, where needed, to find suitable placements.

- Steve

RE: Training Young Engineers

We don't like these "marriage" mentorship situations. We like 4 month co-op placements best. We can put up with, and get work out of, just about anybody for four months. Same for them- if they're a bad fit, the longest they have to suffer with us is 4 months. The good ones we get back for a subsequent 4 months, after one or two more terms of school. 2 terms at most, even for the best ones- we want them to get other experience so they come to know that the grass probably isn't greener...

We had an experience year guy once, brought in for a particular project. His assigned project died after 6 months and we were stuck with him for the other 6- he was a dud, but you'd have to be pretty heartless to turf a student mid-term in an experience year. That tendency to keep "challenger" or "experience year" candidates just because you know them is pretty strong and in our opinion it leads to poor results. We'd MUCH rather put up with the extra recruiting and training hassle of revolving 4 month terms than reduce the number of candidates we "interview" via internship, because of that group only a few are superstars and we find that it's very tough to figure out who the superstars are going to be beforehand. I can say that with authority because the recruitment and training/mentorship hassle is my own rather than some HR department doing most of it for me- I'm the one going through the reams of application packages, selecting and interviewing candidates, and working with at least a few of them on projects as well as seeing the reviews for all of them.

We sign up with the only school in the area which has students available on 4 month terms year round, and we don't take summer students unless we have a sudden unanticipated need which happens to occur in summer. It ties us to one school, the fact of which we don't like much- but if you compare the resumes of the kids from that school to kids from the other non-co-op schools, there's no comparison.

RE: Training Young Engineers

Tied to one school can be a mixed bag. On the one hand they've all had the same instructors and every instructor has blind spots. On the other hand if you notice a systematic lack you have a relationship that can work to fixing it. I'm thinking that the positives outweigh the negatives if you work to nurture your relationship with the staff.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

RE: Training Young Engineers

2
I've always been a sink or swim type myself, it's worked well for me and now that I'm making the transition from younger engineer to someone who actually does some mentoring, I try to do that with the younger engineers. I would certainly err towards the side of overwhelmed, rather than bored.

Don't give them the answer or do things for them, do show them where to get the answer. Usually I was checked in on a couple times a day, see if I had any questions. I try to do the same. Maybe do a quick glance over the shoulder while I'm standing there and point out a tip or trick I use to make life easier or address some bug in whatever program they're using. Try to remember the mistakes I've made before because it's likely they'll make the same mistakes. Kind of trying to strike a balance between overbearing and not paying attention, allow them the space to figure things out on their own but check in every now and then to give a boost or throw a line.

And don't forget the non-technical aspects of the job. Pull them in on phone calls with clients and contractors every now and then. Not to participate, but just to see how you handle it. Put them on a job with you and drag them to meetings. They don't teach that aspect of the job in school. Make them draw up details to give to your drafter and then get yelled at because they're incomplete and/or sloppy. Give them an RFI to respond to and then get yelled at by the contractor because it's too expensive or unbuildable. Ask them to put a fee together for a new small job (even though you already know what you're going to ask for).

What seems to have worked for my boss is to fully vet job candidates. Hold an interview. Actually look at their grades and transcripts if they provide them. Look for leadership experience. Ask for references and then actually call them, find out how self-reliant the candidate is.

And, ultimately, if we hire someone that needs more guidance than I or my firm can give, then maybe it's best for them to pursue their career elsewhere. We're a small firm. There are plenty of larger companies with fullblown mentor programs, almost like universities, and corporate structures and lines of command that may be better for individuals who want more guidance and structure or need some more handholding. Most of them are hiring right now and would love to have someone with a little experience. If the person can't make the decision themselves, perhaps you need to make it for them. Small firms and sink/swim are not for everyone, just as big companies and structure are not for everyone.

RE: Training Young Engineers

MarkHirschi, it sounds like you have it pretty well figured out. But I've never checked on a student's progress a couple times a day, ever. That's great, if you can do it, and if you do it right- it could easily stray into hand-holding. I see some of them several times a day but it's at their bidding rather than mine, asking questions or discussing work product.

RE: Training Young Engineers

Try flogging when they make mistakes...? This is surely the best solution.

RE: Training Young Engineers

Sink or swim is over rated from what I've seen with lots of interns.

Give the new hire an instructional pamphlet on water safety and a set of water wings and put them in the pool with the life guard may be more like it in my experience.

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RE: Training Young Engineers

But also include the stuff that makes the pool water turn purple.

RE: Training Young Engineers

I know how lucky I was early in my career. My first boss (small 8 person structural consulting firm) met with me once a week to review my calc's and progress. First time I did anything he wanted a complete review. It was right at the transition from Working Stress to LRFD in concrete design, so he often ran quick checks his way to make sure he was comfortable with my LRFD results.

Second job was with a heavy industrial design-build contractor. With about 3 years of experience I was first teamed with the most senior structural drafter. It was never stated, but I figured he was asked about my competency. Never worked directly with him again. Then I was teamed with mid-level drafters and after some time I was assigned the new/young drafters. In hindsight it was a good way of getting any new employee in line with the company standards and how jobs/documents were developed.

Toward the end of my career, I could see how lacking the mentoring was. Any young employee that specifically asked for help was readily given it, but there was no program in place to insure that those too afraid or cocky to ask were also trained. Our boss did have us start developing "Design Guides" so that there was more uniformity across the department as to how specific items were handled. It was still in progress when I ended my career.

gjc

RE: Training Young Engineers

What I don't understand in the corporate world, corporations expect schools to provide them with ready engineers.
Let's see, 6 years of elementary school, 3 years of middle school, 4 years of high school, 4 years of college, all paid for by taxpayers.
That's 17 years of schooling (not counting pre-school) provided for free to corporations and the same corporations would not put a 1% or 2% training budget for newly graduated engineers.

Now, that is greed at it's best, isn't it? Or is it lack of sight?

RE: Training Young Engineers

No, it's not a lack of "sight" (perhaps you mean "vision" or "foresight"?)- it's just what businesses have gotten used to. They have had, and now demand, a "flexible" workforce- i.e. a line-up of their competitors' former employees who they can hire at the drop of a hat, fully trained and ready to go, with enough selection to avoid paying a premium.

Again, it's my sincere hope that the demographic shift as the baby boomers retire, will wipe some of these bottom feeders off the map.

What troubles me is how willing government is to attempt to address the desire of the business community for such a workforce, by dumping more grads and immigrants into the job market. It appears that no evidence is needed- all they need to do is scream "shortage!" long enough and the supply taps are opened wide. When the crash comes, and it always does, nobody is on hand to close the taps again - the new state of the supply taps is considered normal and the oversupply simply ignored.

RE: Training Young Engineers

This is a topic I closely relate to. Not sure how many of you have heard of Kettering University, but it is a co-op based curriculum. We do 3 month rotations of school and work, it is mainly an engineering school but they have recently introduced Biology and Chemistry fields. I have seen experienced many different types of training throughout my co-op rotations and they have ranged from sink or swim to classroom setting software training. Dependent upon the project at hand, some methods work better than others.
A few weeks ago I was given the responsibility to train another co-op/programmer at my company and this got me thinking. I was thrown into the deep end when I started working here and given the task of finding a way to automate/streamline process’ within our company. I was 17 and 2 weeks out of high school, by the end of my following co-op term, I had a process established and began developing it for about the next year. Now, I am testing my training program on my fellow co-op and I can’t help but feel that I should take more of a teaching approach to ensure they understand the software/programs at hand and not just accept it without reason and full understanding.

DHuskic
Data Prep NX7.5
Kettering University Class of '17

RE: Training Young Engineers

Quote (cry22)

... 4 years of college, all paid for by taxpayers.

Depending where in the world you are and when you went to school etc., college may not be 'all paid for by taxpayers'.

Even if your statement about college were universally true, my guess is many companies would point out that they pay various taxes and so may be entitled to expect that employees educated in the system they pay toward shouldn't need them to spend a bunch of time & money giving further education/training.

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RE: Training Young Engineers

When I was a supervisor I developed an incoming checklist for new hires. It was more helpful for younger folks, but it would also benefit the senior guys. The list included things like:

Technical
-Company Design Guides/Technical Standards
-Applicable codes
-A good example project so they can review the entire design process; including all the deliverables. I had them review the company procedures along with the deliverables.
-A project site plan / building layout (so they can get a feel for how the site is laid out and where the structures are)

Administrative
-Company Procedures (so they know the rules of completing their work)
-Scope Description (so they know what the end product is)
-Division of Responsibility (so they know who's doing what)
-Org Chart (so they can hunt down people without asking)
-Acronym List (go to a meeting at a new company and you'll have no idea what anyone is saying..."We need a YTP form to be completed for the EKH system after we conduct the PWEN review...???")

I let them chew on this for a few days and then give them an assignment. If they ask me a question that I know can be answered in something I gave them, I'd tell them to look harder.


Kevin Connolly, PE
www.TheEngineeringSurvivalGuide.com

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