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Dimmable LED fixtures, not so much

Dimmable LED fixtures, not so much

Dimmable LED fixtures, not so much

(OP)
For a kitchen update, I bought four LED troffers from Lowe's. They are BRIGHT.

SWMBO has requested some attenuation. ... and that's where the problem started.

Two different brand new dimmers, both rated for up to 150W of CFL or LED, basically just manage to make them flash, or be OFF or ON, but not dim.

The troffers are labeled Cooper Metalux. The boxes bear the part number
2GRLED1322X2RT , which decodes to
2 = 2' width
G = Grid lay-in
R = general purpose troffer
... and the rest of it doesn't decode in any meaningful way according to the Cooper cut sheet I could find:
http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public...

The cut sheet does say that "the Metalux is equipped standard with a 0-10V continuous dimming driver that works with any standard 0-10V control/dimmer."
... which I don't quite understand.
Line voltage is 120/60, standard US terrestrial.

Where does the 0-10V come from, and where does it go?

What else do I have to buy?





Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Dimmable LED fixtures, not so much

Oh dear. I think you might have gone a bit too commercial/industrial for your residential lighting.

Here's the wiki on the dimming technology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0-10_V_lighting_contr...

That's going to be awkward to sort out.

RE: Dimmable LED fixtures, not so much

(OP)
Ugh.
That explains why Lowe's didn't have a bigger inventory,
and why they pulled them from the website.
... right after I bought them.

Thanks.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Dimmable LED fixtures, not so much

Refund is likely the best option.

If not, then perhaps the 0-10v dimmer controller could be installed somehow within the fixture(s) to provide a fixed dimming level. This means the additional wires would be just a mod internal to the fixture. Might be tricky to meet Code though.

Or, physically remove some LEDs.

Good luck.

RE: Dimmable LED fixtures, not so much

(OP)
I found one dimmer that should work:

Lutron NTSTV-DV NovaT 0-10V LED & Fluorescent Dimmer with Power Management; Single Pole White

On the, er, bright side, it doesn't need external transformers, or extra connections to the troffers, which came with a push-in two wire connector, and no noticeable ballast.

Unfortunately, the NTSTV-DV does not have an occupancy sensor, unlike the Lutron Maestro C-L, which is installed now, and working OK for on/off but not really dimming.

SWMBO seems to like the occupancy sensor, as do I, so I'll keep looking.

Of course, the switch is in a slightly wider than one gang box, in concrete, in what used to be an exterior wall, so the problem gets more interesting.

Thanks for all the help.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Dimmable LED fixtures, not so much

Lutron or Leviton brands seem to make the better dimmers out there for LED luminaries.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?

RE: Dimmable LED fixtures, not so much

You're no doubt aware that when you dim a white LED, it will remain white, rather than giving that pleasant orange glow. I've replaced all the GU10s in the pot lights in my living room with LEDs, except two so we get that nice glow on dimming.

RE: Dimmable LED fixtures, not so much

And keep in mind if you need to customize: The commercial 0-10V is sourced from the luminaire. The controller sinks it.

Hope your new dimmer works!

Best to you,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies

RE: Dimmable LED fixtures, not so much

(OP)
I'm still going nuts trying to make sense of the Cooper and Lutron websites.

I'm getting the impression that I need an "LED driver" in each luminaire. That assertion is fortified by the presence of a keyed two-pin connector in the wiring box.

Search is complicated because "LED driver" has another, older, completely different meaning within electronics.

Selection is complicated because I have yet to find a Cooper cut sheet that even mentions the presence of a connector at the fixture interface, much less gives a drawing or a part number. Nor have I found a cut sheet that decodes the part number of the luminaires.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Dimmable LED fixtures, not so much

If it accepts AC power and works (and doesn't explode) then it must have the required LED driver already integrated within the fixture.

Is it possible that the 2-pin connector is for the 0-10v control signal to/from the wall mounted control?

It may be assuming that the power is supplied at the fixture and with low voltage control wiring to the wall.

Also, is there any provision for interconnecting the 0-10v signal from one fixture to the next?

Disclaimer: I've not investigated the data sheets.

RE: Dimmable LED fixtures, not so much

(OP)
The troffer termination is a little odd.

Access is by a little galvanized cover that slides in and snaps. ... and it carries the only green ground screw, so I put the green wire of the whip that I bought around that.
The black and white wires pushed nicely into the back of an orange two pin connector, one hole of which had been marked black. It has a key, because it separates from a mating shell that was already terminated with black and white wires leading to the interior. There are some other connectors sort of pushed back in there, but they appear to be internal connections, and are mostly closed if not sealed.

The presence of a separable connector leads me to suspect that some optional module plugs in between the halves. I didn't detect a trace of connectors for the other two wires that seem to be normal for 0-10V lamps.

I.e., in the place where you'd expect to find the terminations for the troffer/luminaire, there are only two available pins plus the ground.

There's no obvious way to daisy chain the troffers.

They're very light, so there can't be a lot of iron in them beyond the thin steel of which they are constructed.

There were no documents in any of the packages. I left a note at coopercontrols.com, which I found by accident while wandering aimlessly in and out of cooperindustries.com, which seems to have mostly circular references.

I tried leaving a note at Eaton.com, but there is no way to make the site accept input without being a direct customer, having a customer number, and having a contact name. Idiots.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Dimmable LED fixtures, not so much

(OP)
Well, OOPS all over me.

I got up on the ladder and poked around inside the termination box of a troffer. The things that I had assumed to be internal connections are in fact multiple-hole push-in connectors with a gray wire in one and a purple wire in the other, clearly set up to be easily connected to each other when appropriate, and clearly the 0-10V low voltage connections for dimming. I just hadn't dug deep enough to pull them out.

So now I have to run some low voltage wire, and buy a four-wire dimmer, and maybe a power supply block if it's not integral to the dimmer.

Thanks to all for all the help.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Dimmable LED fixtures, not so much

(OP)
update:

I got a reply from Eaton Cooper Controls, including a cut sheet listing the performance specs of a "dimming driver", for which no part number appears, and another document listing which occupancy sensors and which dimmers should work with it.

It looks like a particular photodiode based daylight sensor, Eaton DLC-PD-DIM, would dim the lights nicely without a lot of added complexity, but adjusting the level would be awkward.

Again, thanks for all the help.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Dimmable LED fixtures, not so much

Ya know.... You should install a radio-controlled dimmer-motor switch up there in the troffer so you don't need to go up and down the ladder all the time so SWMBO is happier. 8<)

RE: Dimmable LED fixtures, not so much

(OP)
Seriously, I am thinking about remote control dimmers. They do exist, I think including models that can be controlled by a smartphone.

Right now we are painting the walls, and glad to have the bright light.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

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