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Teamleader always in CC
12

Teamleader always in CC

Teamleader always in CC

(OP)
Hello all,

Some months ago two team leaders exchanged departments. I didn't mind too much at the time, as I can work with almost anybody and can do my job no matter the team leader (although I feel the former one was a person from which I had much more to learn from than the new one).
For a period of time there were no problems, but then the new team leader started being a complete control freak. I can manage most of her rules, but I have a hard time accepting the rule where I have to add her in CC to every email I send.
Don't judge too fast...on all my evaluations I was over their expectations in terms of communication, as my team leader always knew what I was working on, as I like to be as transparent as possible. When identifying a new topic to work on I would always send an email or tell them directly and mention how I would go about fixing it, but then I would have fixed it directly and send to the team leader an email when the problem was fixed (one email only with a whole conversation maybe, and the solution to it). I thought this was an elegant way of dealing with things, I was also able to construct some work relationships with colleagues in other departments, all was well.

The problems I have with this CC rule are:
- I think some people will interpret it badly and thing that I need to add "my mommy" in order to receive an answer from them => I don't really know what I'm doing/I'm not really confident
- I cannot be proactive and make my own decisions (although I am the responsible person in some projects) because she has the annoying habit of interfering (i.e. when I receive an answer she sometimes replies before I get the chance)
- I feel that I cannot connect as easily to people in other departments

Do any of you have the same rule - boss always in CC for every stupid email? How do you deal with it? Am I just analyzing this too much and all the points I have on not liking the cc rule are just stupid?

Any insight would be helpful.
D.

RE: Teamleader always in CC

None of us know anything about your work situation, so we can't tell you whether the person involved is really a control freak or just someone who wants to be in the loop so they can provide help when it's needed. Bosses need to avoid being blindsided by customer/other department calls about issues they weren't informed about etc.- they're there to lead and manage, and can't do that in the dark.

As project manager/principal engineer on a job, I need to be copied on all written communications with our external customer. When I mentor more junior project managers, I follow the same rule for them. When they don't need an active mentor any more, and are ready to completely stand on their own, then I'm happy to just be around to answer questions when asked. Until then, it's my job to know what they're doing, so when the customer calls me, I know what they're talking about. Internal communications? No problem- no need to include me in the communication chain unless there's a dispute or other issue I can help to resolve.

CCing the boss shouldn't be a problem for you, unless it leads to the "team leader" taking credit for work you did as if it were her own, or unnecessary intervention/meddling in what you're doing. Then it's control-freakism as you've suggested. Worried about appearances? Perhaps you should lighten up, or maybe move to a smaller company where there's less interdepartmental horsesh*t to worry about.

RE: Teamleader always in CC

3
Would you say "copying my daddy" if your boss were male? Or would you just deal with it and move on?

RE: Teamleader always in CC

(OP)
@moltenmetal: I understand your point of view and I agree that a team leader needs to know what is going on, but this is not the case. As I mentioned in the original post, I always let my team leader know what I'm working on and I always discuss about how I am planning to solve the situation. I understand the need to be informed especially since she is new in this team, but I think it is exaggerated to ask to be in cc for every internal conversation I have. There was also the situation where I did not put her in CC when I forwarded an email to a colleague of mine because she already had the original email and she specifically said that she wanted to be in that email too, although she would have had it twice. I can't understand this behaviour as I always keep her in the loop. I also told her about how I feel about this rule and provided her with arguments and emphasizing that she always knows what I'm doing whether she is in CC or not, and her only reply was "I said I wanted to be in CC, I will be in CC". And she repeated this phrase several times...

@ SLTA: Yes, I would say the same, my problem in easily accepting this rule is not gender related, it's just related to this behaviour I don't understand. And if anything, I'm a woman too.

RE: Teamleader always in CC

2
This tends to be self correcting. In big companies the e-mail traffic is brutal. It is common for a manager to get over 100 e-mails a day. Dealing with that volume of traffic takes a lot of time. The first time your manager fails to respond to an important e-mail from her manager she will begin to take steps to curb the volume, and that "cc me on every e-mail rule is often the first thing to be discarded. I've had to do it a few times (I would BCC instead of CC so that responses would not go to the boss, sometimes that was acceptable, other times it wasn't).

I've never had a boss that responded to this kind of stuff directly, that just seems rude to me. If it causes problems with clients or subordinates you really should ask her if a BCC would work for her.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

RE: Teamleader always in CC

cheers for the clarification, zanouk.

Is she making all the other team members copy her as well? As long as it's not just you, then maybe just sigh and see her as paranoid about not missing something or messing up in her new job. She perhaps had someone going behind her back at her last position, so a lesson hard learned. If it is just you, maybe it's time for a frank discussion about why.

Good luck...

RE: Teamleader always in CC

Zanouk,
The title “team leader” implies to me, working manager, aka a person who has their own technical work and has to make sure others are on task.
This is a very challenging task, if not harder than pure management.
Being new to the “team” they may be trying to be a perfectionist, I second Zdas, that this will probably sort itself out as everyone figures each other out.

If you want to expedite things you could try offering better solutions that matches your work flow and company structure then the continuous CCing.

If you have multiple bosses, like many of us do, get them both together at the same time and try to offer a more efficient solution.

RE: Teamleader always in CC

Still trying to figure out what the big deal is. If she wants to be CC'd, CC her. Maybe it's her filing systme. Maybe she needs a written record. Maybe she does wants to micromanage you. Whatever it is, pushing back over something so easy is a fight you're going to look bad doing.

RE: Teamleader always in CC

3
Sometimes, Malicious Obedience is the best tactic.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Teamleader always in CC

Just do it!

Good luck,
Latexman

Technically, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water.

RE: Teamleader always in CC

Increase your e-mail traffic exponentially.

"On the human scale, the laws of Newtonian Physics are non-negotiable"

RE: Teamleader always in CC

"Malicious Obedience". I love that phrase MikeHalloran.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

RE: Teamleader always in CC

I say just do it. Not worth making a big deal of it or turning it into a personal battle. Maybe it's a technique to prevent internal squabbling via email. Before hitting send on a snotogram, would I send this to the boss (or to my Mum/Dad)?

- Steve

RE: Teamleader always in CC

I was going to say what Mike said, perhaps the best way to prove a system is broken is rigid compliance with it.

For a vaguely similar situation, I once managed to send an email to folks outside my department that offended someones delicate sensibilities. In response my manager said he had to approve all emails to anyone outside of the department. So, I rigidly complied - plus if he hadn't given me the OK within a few minutes I'd do and bug him about it.

I think this particular policy lasted about a week.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Teamleader always in CC

"Malicious compliance" is the phrase I'm familiar with. Whoops, what I meant to say was that I've never heard of such a thing.

RE: Teamleader always in CC

Malicious compliance = passive-aggressive. Try not to get that label.

Best to you,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies

RE: Teamleader always in CC

"Malicious compliance = passive-aggressive."

Sorry I call BS on that one, or alternatively say that one persons 'Passive Aggressive' is another persons 'Unconventional Warfare' - you know like the US used during the revolutionary war etc.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Teamleader always in CC

Whatever you want to call it, it's unlikely to be a winning play.

- Steve

RE: Teamleader always in CC

I hate email traffic, I get 100 emails per day. In my opinion, the "reply all" button should be removed from Outlook and the ability to add other people in to email chains should be wired to the mains electricity. I do my bit, I have a phone and I have legs, and I use them. As most of us posters and readers on Eng-Tips know, often the pertinent bit of information is missed or overlooked. A face to face conversation helps loads. And once a face to face rapport is developed emails are easier.

RE: Teamleader always in CC

Make a rule in your email client. All emails BCC to teamleader. That way it's no concern for you; the recipient doesn't know mummy is involved; and if she decides to butt in then she has to take the surprise into consideration. And don't hesitate when sending emails. Hopefully she'll be swamped and stop reading them.

RE: Teamleader always in CC

use IM, face to face or telephone and quit using email for every little thing.

RE: Teamleader always in CC

Have to disagree about malicious compliance being passive aggressive. There is nothing passive about it if you are doing it right.

Probably the most common reaction when a person does not like a situation that is beyond their immediate control, is reluctant, begrudging compliance. Now that is passive aggressive.

RE: Teamleader always in CC

Trust me, the "blanket cc" is a lot more palatable than the politically-motivated, "selective cc".

Few things at work anger me more easily than seeing a political "selecive cc" to a superior or a client. When people want to play those kinds of games with me, then I walk over to the offending individual, have a one-minute conversation, and either modify or put an end to their participation in that or any subsequent email chain.

In your instant, just hit cc. People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing. Be one of those people.

RE: Teamleader always in CC

The only thing worse than reading all that e-mail is not reading it and being responsible when the train has already left the rails and is well down in the canyon.

Sure, we all talk to one another, and that's good- but I still need to be copied on written correspondence.

I'll take the cc's and read the e-mail, gladly. When my employer is paying me to do it, it's hard to object. Not after hours, or on weekends, unless I've asked for that communication- a lot of people fall into that trap, but I never will.

If I were you, I'd pick my battles. You're unlikely to win this one. Do what you're asked.

RE: Teamleader always in CC

When she starts getting 500 emails ever day and cannot deal with them all, affecting her performance when the more critical ones are missed, she will change her requirements.

Happened here...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Teamleader always in CC

Some people just have to learn the hard way when to control, and when to let others do their job.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Teamleader always in CC

I second liteYear, see if a bcc will suffice. That way you fulfil your teamleaders requirements and it takes out the discomfort for you having your recipient know that the teamleader is on every correspondence.

RE: Teamleader always in CC

BCC can get messy too.

That's one of the reasons I end up with more people on my 'to' and 'CC' lines than I'd really like because if you don't include them initially they can at some point get left out of the part of the chain they do need.

I.e. they may not be directly affected by my initial email but may care about a reply etc.

Or the email chain breaks into sub chains etc. which can be a pain and I end up spending time managing the email chain rather than working...

So, yeah before emailing think if a phone call or walking over to someone may be more effective but sometimes the 'paper trail'/keeping other folk in the loop is appropriate.

I know there are software offerings that effectively act like a forum or blog for specific topics I can't help thinking that would be better for many applications of email.

Either way, unless you don't want your manager to see your email for whatever reason (some of which you hint at) I don't see the issue with CC them.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Teamleader always in CC

Hey KENAT, you're not allowed to call BS on my "malicious compliance = passive-aggressive" statement unless you've supervised an individual with that particular disorder for a few years. bigears

Me: "Say, Big-guy -- how about getting somebody to clean up around the loading dock sometime?"
Big-guy: "No problem!"

A couple hours later, the president of the company and a police officer are in my office wanting to know why big-guy has closed the street (a major one) with orange barrels and brought in a truck-mounted pressure washer to the dock area. Big-guy told them I said to do it.

Anyway, that's my experience with malicious compliance. I am not in favor of it. Even if it is different from passive-aggressive behavior, it can get one labeled as a passive-aggressive person, which does not sit well with HR weenies.

Best to you,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies

RE: Teamleader always in CC

"The sender has requested a read receipt."

Oops, butter-fingers. Seem to have hit "No". Never mind. Just blame it on my Linux news client that I insist on using instead of the M$ thing we're all assumed to be using.

- Steve

RE: Teamleader always in CC

There are a number of possible reasons for the CC requirement: accountability, mentorship, tracking, paranoia... There is only one real option: comply.

One result of this policy in my workplace is that I make more phone calls.

RE: Teamleader always in CC

If your organization is like some that I've dealt with, any time you make a phone call to any outside party, you have to take notes and put the notes in the appropriate file.

I think it would be simpler to use email.

RE: Teamleader always in CC

"Malicious compliance = passive-aggressive."

Sorry I call BS on that one, or alternatively say that one persons 'Passive Aggressive' is another persons 'Unconventional Warfare' - you know like the US used during the revolutionary war etc.


of course it's passive aggressiveness. a good way to get fired.

RE: Teamleader always in CC

While you can't control the actions of people external to the company as far as email responses go, it is useful to have a departmental if not company policy on email usage and etiquette. If cc the team leader is one of the rules, so be it. My department had a few other practical rules - no bcc; no email trails more than 3 replies deep (at that point your audience isn't getting the point and you need to walk over to see them or pick up the phone); actions are required from those in the to: field, people on cc: are for their information; sarcasm doesn't work in writing (especially if there are cultural differences).

RE: Teamleader always in CC

Quote:


actions are required from those in the to: field, people on cc: are for their information

That's one we use, as well. If you are cc'd on an email, it's for information, you aren't expected to do anything. If the email is to you, it may require some action on your part.

RE: Teamleader always in CC

"no email trails more than 3 replies deep "

Is there a setting for that (assuming Outlook)?


RE: Teamleader always in CC

no, what he meant was, that if you have a three replies deep email convo, it's better to pick up the phone and talk it out.

RE: Teamleader always in CC

Honestly, I fail to see the problem here.

Maybe it's me that has an open relationship with my manager, where I do not work for him but we work together (he puts in the experience and vision, I do the grunt work) that is different?

I actually want him to be on most of my emails for documentation, we implemented a ticket based email protocol where we always put in the ID number in the subject and with a simple Outlook rule, emails get sorted into folders automatically and if needed he can skim through the information as needed.

And as others pointed out, this person is in charge. Did she started taking action based on all the emails or does she let you carry on with your work?
Have you considered that by having her on emails you are in fact buying a bit more freedom from her as she can assess your competency and keep track of what is going on without breathing down your neck?

RE: Teamleader always in CC

My boss has me cc him on any email that should be part of the project record. So, short emails saying "Mr. Client, want to hit the course after work?" are not cc'd as they don't matter. When he gets his 500 emails a day he sorts them by project and doesn't read them. However, if he needs to go through a chain of emails to solve a problem and I'm not around he has all the relevant information. Makes sense to me, I plan to do the same if I ever become boss.

Maine EIT, Civil/Structural.

RE: Teamleader always in CC

I think it might be choice of communication method that causes the problem.

Email is great for sending a chunk of information to several people (no reply required), or for leaving a message for a single recipient if you know they aren't there, or it's not urgent. Think electronic versions of "normal mail" and "post-it notes".

But for discussions its hopeless, and should be a last ditch choice. Much easier to pick up the phone and you can get a lot more covered in a short time, rather than spending time "wording the email correctly", waiting for a response, replying to that and so on... Plus, tone of voice carries a lot more meaning than words alone, and any misunderstandings are cleared up instantly on the phone.

Afterwards, you can always use email for "minutes", once everything has been covered. And then cc the boss into just 1 email.

www.jcb.com
NX 8.5 with TC 8.3

RE: Teamleader always in CC

Quote (carlharr)

Afterwards, you can always use email for "minutes", once everything has been covered. And then cc the boss into just 1 email.

Great point, best of both worlds.

Maine EIT, Civil/Structural.

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