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How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?
13

How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

(OP)
At my current job, actual formalized training is practically non-existent. While I try to take on tasks where I can learn a bit more, this is not always possible. I also talked to my line manager about this, but there's no time and less money for training.

I think I'm quite useful to my company in the role I am, with the skills I have. But of course I want to broaden and improve my skill base - as a way to future proof my career, but also because I like to learn new things.

In comparable situations, what have you done to improve your abilities on the job?

Things I'm doing out of my working time: reading trade press and similiar stuff in my free time, I'm also considering getting another degree.

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

A second degree at the same level may be interesting, will certainly be hard work and take a lot of time, but ultimately, unless you need a sleeveful of boy scout badges won't really help much. Much better to put the energy into a higher level degree.


What you really seem interested in is shorter term stuff, paid for by your employer. I can't think of a good way to persuade a recalcitrant employer to stump up for training an employee who is already good enough, it comes down to policy in the end.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

(OP)
Yes, I was thinking about a higher degree. But that is just for background, my chief question is indeed "to persuade a recalcitrant employer to stump up for training an employee who is already good enough."

The other question would be, how do I actually identify an employer who's more willing to invest into training?

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

If you can do an ROI on training to show why it pays for the employer to give it to you, and try to persuade them it won't just be something that looks good on your resume when job hunting... then they may bite.

If you just want to be a better engineer don't necessarily get hung up on 'training' - worry about learning. I more or less self taught myself US drawing standards by reading over some training material in the evenings, looking things up in the standard, and participating in one of the forums here plus a little input from an experience colleague. So I now have a reasonable worker day ability with GD&T wwit

If however, you want to improve your career prospects then getting the 'certificates' that you can refer to on your resume may be more significant.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

If your current employer needs a little convincing, one thing that seems to work is to get licensed as a PE (almost always benefits an amployer)and then tell hem/her that you need pdh's to keep your license.
Of course, you can go job hunting, make training a priority, ("What is your employee training program?") and find another job. And if that's your main motivation, you'll likely find something. But what if it means a much longer commute, a salary cut, worse working conditions?
I have to take a lot of training to keep my licenses. And I find myself looking for courses just to take courses (I took a pretty interesting one on Utility Pole Design). Most training is on the job, learning by doing.

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

(OP)
PE as such is not a thing over here (Germany).

Learning by doing is getting harder as I end up doing things I've been doing for a while.

But in all honesty I want to imnprove my chances to land another job some time, within my current company or with another. Neither something I can sell my boss ...

When job hunting, how do you actually find out if a job training program is worth anything? I was told there would be training before taking my current job.

The advice about seeking specific skills and reading up on them makes sense, of course.

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

Try joining a local Civil/Environmental industrial group. Instrumentation/Controls has the ISA. A lot of times, they will have local learning opportunities, usually put on by vendors, that help with learning.

______________________________________________________________________________
This is normally the space where people post something insightful.

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

Several professional engineering groups are present in the States, so also there are similar groups elsewhere, such as "the International Soil-mechanics Society" or similar name. Locally there also are likely "Technical clubs" All of these usually have monthly meetings and have technical programs at the meetings. The cost usually is zero, except you buy your own dinner.

A simple Internet search brings up this one: "The Association of German Engineers". In these groups you meet peers and can discuss jobs and how to solve them, etc. there may be technical branches that put on technical programs for members. All of these tend to "round you out".

There likely are several others.

If your employer knows that you are a member of one or two, it also helps the company's reputation for getting work.

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

You can certainly push your management and your company to do so, but that's a rather passive approach. As a professional, you have some self-obligation to ensure that you are current and up to date in your own profession. Doctors have a certain level of continuing education to maintain on an annual basis, regardless of who pays for it. Any doctor who is not working for a large association is essentially going to be paying for it out of their own pockets.

TTFN
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RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

(OP)
Thanks all for the advice.

I actually never looked at the VDI in this way, this is a good idea.

I don't think I totally agree with IRstuff though. At the end of the day, I have to make sure I stay reasonably on top of my field, agreed. But: I can ask or bargain for a raise, so I can ask or bargain for more or other training.

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

You are only doing your career a disservice if you think that all training will happen on the job.

Spend a bit of time after work learning something new relating to the work you are doing at work, it's a great way to learn, and then select immediately relevant to your work.

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

, and it's immediately relevant....

Damn auto correct!

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

Employer-paid training is a thing of the past. You have to self-train in this day and age,...and on your own time!

Tunalover

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

At a previous employer, who had no time or money for training at all, I would sometimes sign up for 2-3 day specialized courses (Solidworks, electrical systems design, and the like), pay with my own money, and take vacation time or unpaid leave to attend. I picked the courses carefully and they have paid off. Because those courses went beyond the scope of my previous job, that employer did not benefit from that training. But I did benefit in the long-term, either through improving my job prospects getting subsequent jobs, or in knowing more about other co-workers' specialities than they expected (which got me involved in more interesting projects with them).

STF

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

A boss once said "If I train him he's just going to go work somewhere else." An engineer overhead this and asked him "What do you think will happen if you DON'T train him?"

Tunalover

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

Quote (tunalover)

Employer-paid training is a thing of the past. You have to self-train in this day and age,...and on your own time!

How unfortunate... I've never paid for my own software or professional training. As recently as one year ago.

_________________________________________
Engineer, Precision Manufacturing Job Shop
Tool & Die, Aerospace, Defense, Medical, Agricultural, Firearms

NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD LT, Autocad Plant 3D 2013, Enovia DMUv5

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

yes, that's the brainwashing you get in some companies. esp. SME, where the owner wants as big piece of the pie as possible.
proper companies, that care more then just the next quarter, realize that you are less efficient without training and a couple of 100€ is not a lot compared to a couple of months with learning-as-you-go.
if the company doesn't need the knowledge, it's another matter though. in that event it's good to look online first for any training (pirated or not)

MartinLE you work in germany and get no training at all? what's the official reason? think about what your career goals are and pay yourself if there isn't another option (it doesn't matter if your employer benefits from that)

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

JNieman-
You mean you don't have to pay for your own software? That might change. If things get any worse employers will start requiring us to bring in our own PCs and software. I sure hope it doesn't come to that because all I have is a laptop with MS Office!

Tunalover

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

it just might, especially (at least) in usa. perhaps not for specialist roles though, but you never know. probably only win + office from the software part.
that laptop won't help you much because said computer will have to adhere to department standards ( =quadro or firegl graphics for CAD)

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

(OP)
There'S two reasons for not getting training, the first and foremost beeing money - apparently, there'S none to spend.
When I talk to my boss about training, he sees it as some sort of benefit for me and not as something that would help the company. I think he thinks that training on the job is generally enough.

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

what is your line of work? find another job, esp. since you're from germany.

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

MartinLE-
What is you boss's reaction when you point out to him that the training benefits the company as well as you?

Tunalover

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

Go easy on him IRStuff. He might be somewhere where NOBODY gets trained, whether they're on the advancement vector or not.

Tunalover

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

I take the train to work, where I have a lot of time to read. I think I have a lot of ambitions, so I always try and put away as much info as I can even if I don't see myself needing it, even in a year or two away! It's also worth looking for a new job on projects that will challenge you more, and you'll earn a great deal more than your current situation.

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

put away as much info as I can even if I don't see myself needing it, even in a year or two away!
nah, in a couple of years you forget most of it, esp if you only read it and didn't exercise it for example.

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

Quote:

...nah, in a couple of years you forget most of it, esp if you only read it and didn't exercise it for example.

I wholeheartedly disagree with that!

I keep everything I can. I keep it tidy, either on the shelf or on my computer. I have skimmed through most of it, whether it's about programming, specialized fasteners, heating ducts, or soil stability, or anything else engineering-related. It is so hard to find good sources of data, that when I do encounter them, I seize them immediately. If I ever need it later, I can access it with a really quick search of my computer. There is a lot of stuff that is hard to find with google, either because it's lost in the flood or it isn't really well indexed. Once I started cultivating that habit, it soon became clear that just the exercise of skimming and storing things made it easier to remember them on the spur of the moment. You don't have to remember it word-for-word - you just have to remember that you have it, then look it up. Just today, for three unrelated examples, I wanted to find typical flow velocities in air conditioning ducts, the relationship between bolt pre-load and the torque applied when tightening it, and a data-reduction method for performance measurements of a small wind turbine. I found each item in minutes, and what I had available was MUCH more profound than just the results of a stupid google search. I spent the rest of the time reading the data I looked up and figuring various things out. Without my archive I would have only been able to do one of those things effectively today, and still be working on the rest tomorrow.

STF

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

Agreed with SparWeb... my collection folder continues to grow throughout the years.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

Yes, a good technical reference library really is key. I keep everything on my dropbox folder, which is starting to become rather full at the 10GB. What with having to consult main eurocodes, a national annex, published documents, NCCI etc in Europe its easy to miss something out so I keep everything arranged in a logical order for when I need it.

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

2
To put it simply: take a relevant book home and read it. If your company has a library of useful books, see if you can check one out and take it off premises to read at home. If it doesn't, search online, ask for suggestions (such as on these forums), buy the book yourself and read it on your own time. Technical books may cost a couple hundred dollars, but even just one or two sentences in them could save your company tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars. At our company, we have a large, growing library and expect engineers to self-educate. I also have a personal technical library that's cost thousands of my own dollars that complements what we don't have at work. My boss is usually happy to buy any book if an employee suggests it may be useful, because the cost of the book or many books is usually dwarfed by the savings of what's learned in them. Sometimes, I'll buy the books myself if I don't feel like sharing all my hard-earned and paid-for knowledge with everyone else in the company before I've gotten legitimate recognition for going the extra mile. Of course, there's also a massive amount of information online, and I'd suggest getting a Dropbox or other similar service and dumping everything you can into topical folders in that. By doing that, I can bring up useful articles and other info on my computer, phone, and iPad wherever I want. The more information you can find, the more information you'll have to parse down to a coherent model of what you need to do.

I look at self-study as waaaaay more effective and cost-efficient than higher education. Classes are much more expensive and less pinpointed than the books you might buy, so consider that when you balk at the price of a $200-300 book. Plus, books designed for practical work situations are way more informative than books designed for the classroom. In a few weeks or months of reading the right book, supplemented with your own research from the internet and other sources, you could know more practical, directly-useful information about a subject than an entire course of graduate study. Traditional engineering schools just aren't geared to be efficient and practical in what teach when it comes to using that knowledge directly in a real-world job. One exception to this rule, I think, is a decent or good community college. Their classes are affordable, frequently offered at night so they don't conflict with work, and often address very specific skillsets that are much more directly applicable to actual work. I've taken a welding class at night at a nearby one that was very helpful when it came time for me to manage our ASME U-Stamp renewal. I'm a chemical engineer, so this isn't in my supposed realm, but it was necessary, and the class helped quite a bit. I've seen plenty of other classes that range from instrumentation and PLC-programming classes to all varieties of HVAC classes to drafting with various programs and much more. That's the more nuts and bolts type of training that most engineers desperately need. Also, any organization that values the letters after your name more than the actual skills you have has major problems in how it thinks and is going to always under-utilize you.

Look at your self-training as an INVESTMENT in your future that will pay off dividends in the form of higher salary, higher position, bonuses, or the ability to take what you've learned and start your own business. Don't get stuck in this expectation that your company owes you everything for your own improvement. If they clearly expect you to do a certain task the way they want it, then they should obviously train you in their ways. But if you want to go beyond that, you can have total control over where you go if you want. And if you don't, I hope the rest of your colleagues are the same way, because the ones that take things a step farther of their own volition will end up being your boss.

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

I don't know how it is over there in Germany, but here the vendors are always dying to give reference material, host lunch seminars, etc. Good sources of info (if slanted somewhat to their technology/products). Trade magazines are also free and useful, sounds like you are already reading them.

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

5
My small company lost its engineering manager and doesn't seem to want to hire a new one, leaving me without, in my opinion, any engineer any more technically advanced than me. And thus, with the engineering manager gone, so too was my mentor. But some (amongst many) of his parting words to me were "stick around, you can try anything here and no-one will know enough to question it".

I've taken that to heart and chosen to, since I don't get any formal professional development, push myself to do a 10% better job at every subsequent job I do. You can keep pushing the limit like that for a deceptively long time, because each job has multiple things you can choose to do better on. One project I can choose to learn more about welding and design the welding procedures and specifications better. The next job I choose to go a step above the norm on structural analysis. The next it's the quality of the engineering drawings, and the next I might make more decisions on materials, corrosion protection, and heat treats instead of leaving it all to recommendations of suppliers etc. Right now I'm teaching myself GD&T.

It's been working exceptionally well and I find myself having knowledge in a bunch of fields other people where I work might not bother with. Every project takes longer than it could if I cut corners and just spat it out like other people might, but as the engineering manager predicted, there is no-one around to question me when I say "Yes but I have to do/check X and that takes time".

The pay off for my company is a) I don't lose my soul and b) I get to drive-by-solve other people's issues as I walk by because I've already googled that, purchased the book about it and got the business card and fancy pen from the local company that does it.

In conclusion, formal professional development is nice, but being left to your own devices, you can push yourself pretty far on your own with google and some books and industry contacts.

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

(OP)
Thanks all for your input. The route I'm going is getting textbooks and educating myself. When time permits (not often) I try to follow Nereth1 suggestion, using my tasks to further educate myself.

I occasionally look for courses from relevant industry associations, but so far all I found has been irrelevant to me, to expensive, or both.

I would still say that it's also my employers responsibility and interest to keep me trained and up to date, but there'S no way to force them to see it this way so ...

Again, thanks for your help, all.

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

What you could also do is to glue yourself to a senior engineer and try to learn from him as much as possible. You could also research some interesting topics which you are interested in and discuss them with your mentor.

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

I agree with what Sparweb wrote.

Now facing similar situation within my company (poor training opportunities, not enough competent/sharp people around to hope I can learn something really valuable, etc etc). At the end I found myself giving more to my company than I take from it in terms of learning.

Reason is that, on a daily basis, I keep on leveraging on the knowledge I gained and developed at my former company. So the balance is sort of negative. And since I value knowledge more than money/ salary - now I have a real problem because I start to loose motivation and I am even afraid to loose my soul if this lasts too long.

So how am I dealing with this ? well I am going to pay a 2000 US dollars training from my own pocket to learn a certain set of skills in the coming month. Of course I will do that on my vacation time, so it is a free time I will have to negociate; I will also not advertise my plans at my company. There will be another training that I target somewhere in the next three months, but that one will require preparation which means reading a training book, which by the way I bought my self from amazon, and which I have to study during WE's and evenings. It is a lot of expenditures with no guarantee of reward, but I dont loose faith. My company did not find usefull to have a library or even an archive center - maybe to expensive to maintain. I work around it by having personal subscriptions at universities and libraries around my area.

I beleive that poor training programs effect the health of companies. I saw really incompetent people messing up with things because they were poorly trained on procedures and work processes and because management relied solely upon self learning skills. Self learning skills are good but without some formal teaching of methodology and procedures the result can be awkward. At the end, if you have around you a high ratio of mediocrity/competence what will you do? well you can still, and I beleive you definitely should, push yourself ; the question is for how long? risk is that you tend to look for another company means company is then not retaining their talents and am afraid it becomes an internal vicious circle/path toward mediocrity because management did not realize that the real asset is people.

"If you want to acquire a knowledge or skill, read a book and practice the skill".

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

According to one estimate, it takes 5000 hours of dedicated effort to become an expert at one thing. That's 2 hours per day, 5 days per week, 50 weeks per year for 10 years. Then you have to use it or lose it. Self-study is the only way to become an expert. No degree will do it. Even a PhD is just the start of becoming an expert. No week long training class will do it; you can't even read the ANSYS manual in 40 hours so how can you become an expert watching a PowerPoint presentation and then playing with the software?

Read textbooks. Go back and study the books you used in college (I'll bet the problems seem a lot easier now.) Subscribe to a relevant technical journal. Machine Design doesn't count. If you want to become an expert in structural failures, find a way to read International Journal of Fatigue, Engineering Fracture Mechanics, Engineering Failure Analysis, or Fatigue & Fracture of Engineering Materials & Structures.

Just my humble opinion

Doug

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

Jagad5,

I am not too much in favour of self-learning - just want to be honest. In fact I am not necessarily in disagreement with you but some few things appear to me different.

To me an expert needs to be genuinely capable of saying quickly : this can be done, this will not fly ; and this you need to be very carefull of what you are doing etc.

Less capable people might solve the problem but often you get into a debate with them and then sort of "hmmm...let me think" reaction, let me check, in principle etc - so at the end yourself and this kind of guys are getting it done somehow by learning together. No disrespect, but it has been a struggle for me.

So how to count among the first category ? in my view you need a certain business context/ conditions - you cant do this alone. some thoughts:

- First class or premium engineering environment with a healthy team spirit, no competition between peers, focused to win and do things together. Idealistic but still exists.
- Extensive hard working place with demanding target and good performance metrics that unfortunately may burn you out at some point by the way;
- Training on the job : no secret - extensive practice. Some workplace are too much arrogantly selective of the projects they take on board, I do prefer the broad range project prospective attitude with no disdain for the work, as there you really see all the nasty technical situations, if you also fail this is more tolerated as you learn from failure.
- Existense of internal tools, spreadsheet, rule of thumbs whatsoever shared in an open manner and on demand to get the job done.
- Then again existence of focal points in company who are there since 4 decades. High turnover rate is red flag for becoming an expert
- Finally yes training : company managed by people valuing know how, aware of the risk and the complexity of things so that budget are invested to get people properly trained. it can be on tools, on product, etc. It is a culture - you have it or you dont have it.

Some company have such a culture of scarcity, really. as example the only existing spreadsheet is jalously preserved and kept and shared with such great care. What a mediocre context.

I am not saying am right; it is simply my humble and personal opinion.

"If you want to acquire a knowledge or skill, read a book and practice the skill".

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

Being an expert in anything means that you've done "it", or something similar, many times before and therefore you instantly know the answer. That comes from experience, which is self-learning. If you do not realize this, I'm afraid that you will never become an expert. Experience is not just time spent getting paid at a job. It is the active engagement of your mind in learning new things while doing your job.

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

If you talk about the cognitive process of learning yes you learn by yourself. Looks obvious no? try to look further please.

And at the end, it is a matter of perspective, you build you career as you envision yourself in the future and you are responsible for your own development; and since basically you do not have the ultimate truth, none has, dont make bold statement.

I state that you need to be onboard of the right environment and organization. Learning solely relying on yourself is a problem to create an "organic knowledge" in a discipline. That is why I post so many resume each day because I keep looking and avoid staying in broken organisations when that happens (and unfortunately it may happen once or even more in your career and staying wont lead you very far, except in mediocrity).

"If you want to acquire a knowledge or skill, read a book and practice the skill".

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

You should consider "self-learning" as the price of entry to becoming an expert. No one is going to decide on a whim to make you an expert, and without the self-learning, there's not much reason to assign you to something that you haven't done before.

Now, my job is a bit different, because we're often tasked to do things we've never done before, and so we are doing the self-learning and the job at the same time. But, there's almost nothing that you can be assigned that hasn't been done by someone else already, and generally, they're civic-minded enough to write papers about what they did, or didn't. To not avail yourself of all these resources seems to me to be a purposeful way of crippling your career progress.

Case in point; I'm on my way to a customer meeting to discuss our new design, and brought a book to read on the plane about object linking and embedding (OLE), when it was still new (yes, I'm THAT OLD). Lo and behold, we're in the middle of the meeting and one of the customers asks how we're going to handle remote testing and system checkout. So, I rattled off a bunch of stuff about using OLE servers and such, and convinced the customer we knew what we were doing, just from having read about something for about a half hour. Natch, we then had to actually do it, but we then had the time do so.

I like to think of engineers as being somewhat like sharks, who have to keeping moving to keep water flowing over their gills so that they don't die from anoxia. Likewise engineers need to keep learning, or they will suffer from intellectual anoxia. About 75% of my heat transfer knowledge comes from answering, or attempting to answer, HT questions on this site. That, in turn, made me dangerous at work, since I'm now sufficiently knowledgeable about HT to discuss HT design on our products.

I don't see how self-learning can ever be a bad thing.

TTFN
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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

ROTW:
I agree that everyone who will succeed professionally must work in the right environment (right is different for everyone) and that must include mentors, but having the right environment and mentor will NEVER make you an expert; only you can make yourself an expert (and not everyone succeeds in the attempt.) I have had many mentors but even the first, and most important, didn't have 5,000 hours to spend with me during the nine years I worked for him. He did help me identify where my strengths and interests overlapped with the goals and objectives of the organization so that I could focus my self-study on topics that would help me become recognized as an expert valuable to the company.

Doug

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

Lets turn it the other way,

So I sit on my desk all day long, sit and wait for a training session to come in so I can be educated on some topic. When ever I want to learn some new technical concept I just keep looking for a mentor to teach me the concept in the right manner. Whenever I need to tackle some engineering problems which I found interesting I certainly hold on because I need to wait for the right project to come in so I could jump onboard and only then I can start tackling the problem of interest...etc because for me that is the only way to become an expert.

So my point was to advocate the above, right?

Are you really trying to convince me that along all this I have to make lot of efforts to learn things by myself ? come on guys!

When I said I am not in favour of self learning, it means that self learning can only flourish when you are in the right set up (I guess like I described) and my take is that when the right set up is not there it does lead to struggle... you deal with Senior people who are not really knowledgeable...and this does not help execution, sorry. Expert means the guy has done the same thing 100 of times, screwed it up, learned and decided based on some tricks you dont really find in a technical book.

I learned a certain technology when I was on board of a reputable company long time ago, I learned from a really knowledgeable people perfectly skilled and very sharp. Later on I worked for a different company where I had to deal with people who somehow interacted with same technology but learned it from books, projects as well but without lot of foundational trainings relying solely upon themeselves. Fair enough. But you know...I found the same problem which would have been resolved in 10 min in the first organization would end up in an endless technical debate with people being not sure, having to think further etc. Not only this. They argue against you, they dont trust you. At the end, yes you finally reach a resolution, you move on also in this kind of set up - but frankly speaking it is exhausting to work in such a way and the learning curve is not steep. Companies need need to invest in third party training sessions; in quality training, they need to develop people - really.

I had to attend 1st class long session class in the past but there most of my work was done during the week ends when reviewing my notes because I wanted to take full advantadge of the opportunity. The concepts I gained during such training events reinforced by practice through projects dealing with skilled people and working like hell are really the path to success in my view.

"If you want to acquire a knowledge or skill, read a book and practice the skill".

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

We might be in violent agreement on certain aspects of this debate. An expert is someone who knows a great deal about a wide variety of problems encounter in a discipline, and I've never seen anyone reach the level of expert in anything in less than 10 years of devoted practice. It takes that long to screw it up 100 times and realize that the answer was wrong. But someone can learn how to solve a specific problem in many disciplines in a relatively short time. Engineers all learn how to solve linear ordinary differential equations. Those 15 weeks of class is hardly enough to qualify them to be an expert at anything.

Doug

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

"When ever I want to learn some new technical concept I just keep looking for a mentor to teach me the concept in the right manner."

That must be nice, to have all those mentors to pick and choose from. That's hardly the case in most companies I've been with. In many cases, we live the joke, "yesturday, I cudn't evan spel injinear, now I are wun." We recently decided to go into a particular marketplace, and only because I had learned some of the engineering tools on my own, I was immediately the expert, and there was no one else in the division who had any more experience.

I think that you have to consider what you'll do 20 years from now; will you still be running around looking for a mentor to learn something new from? Or, are you going to be that mentor? What happens when you wind up at a small company where you are the most senior engineer?

TTFN
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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

IRstuff,

I am not sure you understood my point. I was intentionally ironical if you read the next part.

Anyhow... regarding your remark:

"I think that you have to consider what you'll do 20 years from now; will you still be running around looking for a mentor to learn something new from? Or, are you going to be that mentor? What happens when you wind up at a small company where you are the most senior engineer?"

I think this one is a valid point. But you cannot put at the same level a guy with 30 years of experience and another one with say only 2 years. Let me explain.

Suppose you are a musician. except if you are Mozart, means a rare brain or a mind positionned at the very far extreme of the bell curve, you normally need to learn step by step. You need to go to school to learn the basics, train at home, do homeworks. Then you may pick up one particular instrument and possibly you later join some symphonic orchestra etc (beginner then professional category). There you follow the master and your peers, you learn within an environment. You learn how to perform and master your art and that takes years of hard work and perseverance. So if you have the chance to play in a national philarmonic orchestra of the highest standard then your learning curve is going to be even more fast and it will be very demanding as well on a personal level. At some point in time, you may become one of the Master of the orchestra. There you are alone in the arena, yes. You are this Senior engineer of 20 to 30 years experience in the small company you refered (by analogy). Still you continue to learn, definitely we agree. Learning is a continuous process which never ends. But your brain at that point is set and calibrated to learn "autonomously"; it can make some experiment, brake the rules, explore new horizons etc. I mean after all those years of hard work in a dedicated environment comes the time where you gain a real freedom upon a mastery an art. Again by analogy you are the Senior Engineer in the small company but the foundation or the pillars are so solid.

Anyhow this is how I see myself growing : within a certain framework where the values and culture are not corrupted.

PS: I dont play music by the way ;)

"If you want to acquire a knowledge or skill, read a book and practice the skill".

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

I guess I just don't get what you are advocating:

"my take is that when the right set up is not there it does lead to struggle"

And if the "right setup" is rarely there, then you'll do nothing? Nothing gets handed to us; you have to work and struggle, because that's the nature of our world. While you wait for the "right setup," someone else is taking online classes and getting ready for ANY opportunity to show others that they're hungry and ready to tackle the tasks at hand. And that someone will move up while you are still waiting for the "right setup."

TTFN
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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

IRstuff,

I can understand what you say. You also made the assumption that I am "waiting" for the right set up. This is not completely true IRstuff. I struggle like you said also in broken or even toxic environment (when this happens) so that I cant still show achievment and skills in my resume despite the overall negative experience. I try to make something out of a disguting workplace which would exploit your skills (to make lot of money) and do not perpetuate the process of helping you develop, sometimes even not recognizing your work and added value/ scientific contribution. I stick around, self study - of course I self study.
But I am willing to do it temporarily only - maybe one year, maybe years but no longer if possible for the reasons I explained before.

I do prefer an organisation that pays me little money but where the knowledge is wide spread and the learning opportunities are great than I highly paid job where your skills are exploited with at the end company saying to you the word f... off.

There are companies where I created hundred of gigabytes of documentation data in my personal hard drive. There are others where there was no 1 giga byte of data I could find internally usefull. No one spreadsheet that provides with a tool to quantify some parameters etc. nothing.

ok I think I made my point; no offense, appreciated debating.

"If you want to acquire a knowledge or skill, read a book and practice the skill".

RE: How to make sure I get training, improve my skills on the job, etc?

so that I cant can still show achievment and skills in my resume despite the overall negative experience

"If you want to acquire a knowledge or skill, read a book and practice the skill".

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