Solar Roadways
Solar Roadways
(OP)
I rarely keep up with news but I saw this on CNN and thought it looked really interesting. I'm always skeptical of these "green" visionaries trying to change the world, but this guy's an EE of 20 years, has been working with several universities, the US Federal Highway Administration, and more so it seems to be at least somewhat credible.
He's got a site with some videos explaining the concepts and he's also addressed a lot of potential issues in an FAQ.
The biggest potential issue I see with this is cost, which he briefly brings up in the FAQ but gives no estimate for. But I'm not Electrical or Civil, so I'm sure there are a lot of other potential issues out there that I can't think of.
Anybody else heard about this?
He's got a site with some videos explaining the concepts and he's also addressed a lot of potential issues in an FAQ.
The biggest potential issue I see with this is cost, which he briefly brings up in the FAQ but gives no estimate for. But I'm not Electrical or Civil, so I'm sure there are a lot of other potential issues out there that I can't think of.
Anybody else heard about this?





RE: Solar Roadways
I realize the FAQ mentions most of these but from what I read it doesn't give a very robust or quantitative response.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Solar Roadways
Additionally - how much net power are they actually producing, with their powered stripes and heaters sucking down electricity?
If you want to use a parking lot to generate solar power, it will almost certainly be cheaper and more effective* to mount regular solar panels above the cars, with the added benefit of offering shade and weather protection.
Angling the solar panels for drainage is probably interesting as well...
*No pesky cars blocking the sunlight, and you can angle the panels optimally.
RE: Solar Roadways
RE: Solar Roadways
RE: Solar Roadways
A car with no energy, and a stationary field (like perminite magnetcs), would recieve no charge.
A car moving at the same rate as the field in moving would recieve no charge.
So the optimal field would be to move in the oposite direction of the moving trafic, which would produce the maximum induction, and a higher relitive frequency to the recieving coil.
One problem is to support the maximum electrical efficency, you need to tune the circuit to react to the driving (no pun intended) frequency. But since the circuit will keep changing it will require an active tuning of the circuit.
If there is a power transfer between the power company (or agent), and the vehicle owner, how do you bill for the energy, or is it assumed a fixed cost? If an electric meter is used, who reads it, and if the power consumed was from more power provider, how is that devided between the providers?
How would a driver know when his energy rate has changed? Would there be even more road side signs for that?
RE: Solar Roadways
Regards,
Mike
RE: Solar Roadways
-Road grit is abrasive. How long will that surface stay transparent enough to produce usable power?
-What happens to it when somebody decides to spin donuts on it in the middle of an intersection, or rip a handbrake turn?
-How reflective is the surface, and how will the resulting glare, if any, affect people in the surrounding buildings, aircraft pilots, etc.?
-How do you transmit the resulting power through a distribution system that is already overloaded in some high-use areas?
-How do you store or get rid of the excess power? He talks about "virtual storage" (pumping it into the grid during the day and back out at night), but it seems like this would create transmission issues as we shuttle large amounts of energy back and forth.
-He seems to insinuate that significant market penetration could/should force a conversion to a DC current-based grid. Does this seem not only overly optimistic, but wildly impractical to implement to anyone but me?
I like the technology conceptually, but I think implementation will be a mother.
RE: Solar Roadways
However, whenever I find myself skeptical about these technologies that offer massive shifts in infrastructure, I think about how England installed a subway system in the 19th century (albeit right at the end of the 19th century). Could you imagine how that conversation would have gone? “You want to do what?!? Dig a bunch of tunnels under our city, with buildings and people above, and have trains go into them to take people around the city? Do you know how much this is going to cost? What about the safety issues? We already have roads and trolleys, why on Earth would we need to build this system? It’s ludicrously expensive, unsafe, untested and unnecessary!”
Although the analogy isn’t a perfect match (different economic situation, much cheaper labour but less developed technology), I think it highlights that “crazy” ideas of old are now routine today….even still, I can’t shake the opinion that this is pie-in-the-sky thinking. Certainly some neat ideas though. I’d be very interested to see test projects in parking lots (although I agree with TomDOT, canopy still solar farms in parking lots are likely more well suited) and sidewalks/outdoor malls.
RE: Solar Roadways
Granted there is a small portion of stored energy, but with efficenciey rates around 50%, they aren't very viable except as play things.
Educate you. The electric transmission system, commonly called the grid, is not a storage system. It transmits energy, from producer to consumer, nothing more. No more magical than the drive shaft in your car.
I do like the idea of softer roads, as it will make tires last longer, but will it effect traction?
RE: Solar Roadways
Just saying.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Solar Roadways
I guess with over head street lights, if they can keep me up at night, they can generate some energy.
RE: Solar Roadways
RE: Solar Roadways
RE: Solar Roadways
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: Solar Roadways
Proposed, make induction recharging at every stop light, as they are normally red and we have to stop anyway for the full cycle.
One problem is it would cause induction heating on metal parts that may not be intended as recharging elements. Sort of bad for gas trucks.
Woulden't it be strange to see for example milk trucks stoping at bus stops?
Would the electric rate be the same for cars as for homes? Or would road taxes be added to car electric rates?
RE: Solar Roadways
Regards,
Mike
RE: Solar Roadways
Other than edge cases, like a bus - most vehicles spend the vast majority of their time parked. Much, much, much cheaper with much higher potential usage to just install more charging stations in parking lots. Once we have enough electric cars to warrant it, anyway.
There are plenty of SAE J1772 Level 2 stations here in Austin, and most surrounding small cities have at least one.
There is also a Tesla Supercharger on the way to other major cities in Texas (San Marcos, on the way to San Antonio. Columbus, on the way to Houston. Waco, on the way to DFW. Corsicana and Huntsville on I-45)
...but even that's mostly un-needed. Most commuters can simply charge overnight at home, and not use public charging the vast majority of the time. It's like a cell phone - simply charge overnight at home, maybe top it off at work. You don't go to some dedicated charge station at the phone store and wait while it charges.
RE: Solar Roadways
What is the tax surcharge to charge a car at home to offset the road taxes?
Why is exempting some cars from road taxes a good thing?
RE: Solar Roadways
Tax surcharge: Some states have an electric vehicle tax for roads (not many) - most electricity is taxed @ home, though it is not generally directed at roads.
The absolute number of electrics on the road today is tiny. I'm sure the taxes will be taken care of when they have a larger share.
RE: Solar Roadways
However there are three factors (in my mind) that should compose road taxes.
1. a damage factor, to pay for the damage caused on the road. Where most cars, and bikes don't cause very much damage.
2. conjestion factor, to pay for the extra lanes required to carry all the cars on the road. Should be small for each vehicle.
3. Cost to pay for the road to start with. I'm not sure why we need more roads where the conjestion fee would not cover.
Maintenance should go under 1 or 2 above.
Now we would have to add the adminstrative fee for collecting the taxes, which I estimate to be quite high. Or I am paying someone elses share of the first two taxes.
So who collects the solar road energy credits? Is it to reduce damage taxes, or conjection taxes?
RE: Solar Roadways
Less smog?
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Solar Roadways
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: Solar Roadways
Also with a motorcycle you pay a lot more tax when you buy it (compaired to a small car). And most people don't put very many miles on them, as they would a car.
I would be happer if the roads were smarter, and I had fewer red lights. Has anyone studied the decrease in gas millage because of signel light settings?
RE: Solar Roadways
After having driven in the UK on several occasions and therefore becoming familiar with them, I've noticed recently that 'traffic-circles', or 'roundabouts', are starting to show-up here in this country. Now I don't mean the sort of thing one sees in the center of some small quaint village somewhere, but rather regular four-way intersections out in the suburbs. In my old neighborhood back in West Bloomfield, MI several have been built in the last couple of years. Even up in Washington state where my wife used to live there's one right off a busy freeway exit where traffic it being directed to service roads where trucks are making deliveries to businesses and the backside of retail malls. They certainly eliminate traffic signals and if properly understood by the driving public can certainly save gas and keep traffic flowing (I always considered the UK 'roundabouts' as being one of the most civilized things about driving in the UK, once you got past the 'right-hand' drive issue).
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: Solar Roadways
Or for that matter on some of the freeway exits/junctions where they install a roundabout, but traffic flow gets so heavy they have to add traffic lights as well - a real mess.
However, used appropriately they do have advantages over 4 way stops and traffic lights.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Solar Roadways
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: Solar Roadways
*Entering traffic yields to traffic already in the roundabout, there are no added traffic signal lights
RE: Solar Roadways
And round abouts are so beatuiful with the flowers growing in the middle, and the deer eating them. But truthfuly the roundabouts are better than lights.
RE: Solar Roadways
RE: Solar Roadways
- Steve
RE: Solar Roadways
The best man tried to tip the driver after that (well and as compensation for our loud renditions of assorted rude rugby etc. songs) - he refused saying 'nah I get paid to do this'.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Solar Roadways
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Solar Roadways
In a round about, the middle is sort of wasted space, so solar panels are as good as anything.
Here the round abouts are small, and the locals want to see flowers.
RE: Solar Roadways
RE: Solar Roadways
"On the human scale, the laws of Newtonian Physics are non-negotiable"
RE: Solar Roadways
RE: Solar Roadways
"On the human scale, the laws of Newtonian Physics are non-negotiable"
RE: Solar Roadways
RE: Solar Roadways
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: Solar Roadways
Making a roadway clear so you can install solar panels, will mean changeing the surfacing materials, which is a very big issue. Placing the solar panels on the median, or side will mean they will be hit by bad drivers, and as of this time there are requirments for breakaway poles for street lights, so I would expect the same for solar poles (unless solar is exempt for regular rules).
Now one idea would be to put the panels above the street lights, on the same poles, but as that would make the whole thing more top heavy, and wind catching, a larger pole would be required. So when this whole contraption comes down on a car that has hit the pole, will it do more harm (I guess yes), and is it a hazard in it self.
Now maybe we could do something with those big clover leafs, as there is much unused space, but with the efficies in the panels, and lights, I would not expect this to be self providing requiring no energy from the grid. So I ask, why not fill these spaces with native plants that require little maintenance?
RE: Solar Roadways
What this piece of idiotic fluff should teach us all is that there's an endless appetite on the part of many people for a single deus ex machine technical solution for our energy problems. Politicians are the biggest backers of this kind of magical thinking, because it will get them off the hook from doing something very hard, unpopular and politically suicidal but nonetheless necessary- making fossil energy more expensive so that we, the consumers of energy, provide an economic driving force to fund alternatives that actually make economic sense.
Regrettably, there are hordes of charlatans, or at best utterly deluded "inventors" who haven't done the math, who are eager to sell this magical snake oil to the public- either indirectly through government grants, or directly like these guys through crowdsourcing.
As P.T. Barnum said, there's a sucker born every minute. And as Murphy added, there are two born to take him.
Solar pavements for walkways? Maybe, once every roof and south-facing wall (in the N hemisphere anyway) is already occupied...But roads that vehicles drive on? Seriously? What kind of idiot would you need to be to think that would EVER be a feasible solution? Take one look at a road- anywhere, any time- and you'll immediately see ten reasons why this is a complete non-starter. My dad with his gr 8 education would see immediately that this particular emperor has no clothes!
RE: Solar Roadways
RE: Solar Roadways
No lets start with solar carports. When they start giving these away, I'll take one.
Maybe solar garden sheds. I'll take one of these too.
How about a giant metal flower, with solar panels for leafs. We can put one in every park, and call it art.
But at some point we will have the idea of a solar highway tunnel.
RE: Solar Roadways
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Solar Roadways
- Steve
RE: Solar Roadways
The problem with solar sidewalks is that people drive on sidewalks. I'm sure there are a few applications that would work, but in general I don't see it, just like I don't see solar roadways everywhere.
I just think some people like Hype, and some people get carried away with the latest fad.
RE: Solar Roadways
When solar roofs become commonplace, then I will maybe entertain the idea of solar roadways.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Solar Roadways
Go with the solar car port.
RE: Solar Roadways
Use small words. I'm a CE, which makes me a 'conscientious objector' to Coulomb's Law.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Solar Roadways
RE: Solar Roadways
1) The firefighters can easily cut the mains power from the ground, unlike the solar.
2) Solar DC is typically inverted to AC, and connects to all the wiring in the house.
Not electrical, but still an issue:
3) Solar panels interfere with their ability to open up the roof and vent superheated gases. It is much safer to make an entry down below after venting. The panels both interfere with walking on the roof to get to the location they want to cut (can't support the weight of firefighter + gear, typically) and physically block them from making the cut - have to remove the panel, then hack into the roof.
RE: Solar Roadways
I diden't make this up. It's been in the news (or I guess what news you look at will be different).
RE: Solar Roadways
In fact, in the 3rd post in the thread, I suggested simply mounting the panels above the cars in the parking lot. Tomato/Tomahto
RE: Solar Roadways
http://fastlane.gm.com/2013/06/14/gm-amps-up-workp...
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: Solar Roadways
http://ecmweb.com/fire-amp-security/solar-under-fi...
RE: Solar Roadways
RE: Solar Roadways
RE: Solar Roadways
I'll just throwout the idea of solar tires, with built in batteries, and electric motor. Where each can be controled by wifi, and cars would no longer need to use any fuels.
In place of solar roads, why not go back to glow in the dark road stripes.
RE: Solar Roadways
Going vertical would make better sense, perhaps something like the space elevator that Arthur Clarke envisioned.
RE: Solar Roadways
http://news.yahoo.com/solar-roadways-210149010.htm...
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: Solar Roadways
Also, why not railroads? Place solar panels between the rails to run trains that already are electric?
And John, to an Engineer, the glass has safety factor of 2.
RE: Solar Roadways
RE: Solar Roadways
Cheaper, cleaner, safer and better efficiency to mount them on poles (at an angle) in the RR Right-Of-Way, but not in the tracks themselves.
Hm, pretty much the same problems as Solar Freakin Roadways - it's just a really dumb place to put solar panels for a multitude of reasons.
RE: Solar Roadways
I think I should raise sarcasm flag higher.
I was simply trying to say that placing solar panels anywhere you actually don't have to drive on top of them would make more sense.
And BTW space between the rails may be utilized nicely on something like city light rail:
http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/dlovaas/assets_c...
RE: Solar Roadways
RE: Solar Roadways
RE: Solar Roadways
Johnny Pellin
RE: Solar Roadways
Using their own numbers for the most optimistic cost per unit area(something they are apparently incapable of doing) - I came up with a minimum cost of $48 Trillion, just for US Highways - not counting all the sidewalks, parking lots, city streets, state highways, drop-landed spy drones et cetera they keep talking about. It would roughly quadruple the national debt.
RE: Solar Roadways
RE: Solar Roadways
roads make for very poor solar array farms.
Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
RE: Solar Roadways
We can do this once we have everybody is using mass transit, as the roads will be empty. The only problem will be geting grass to grow in the roadway cracks.
RE: Solar Roadways
RE: Solar Roadways
http://news.yahoo.com/inventor-pushes-solar-panels...
However no estimate for cost.
Maybe a better start is church parking lots, where the church has the empty parking lot (except for sundays), and the developer repaves (dosen't sound right) it for the value of the energy.
RE: Solar Roadways
but if you mean "daft", then IMHO it still is a dumb idea ...
how long does it take to pave a road ? (ie the implementation time for this is ridiculous)
how long have we been developing road surfaces ? (ie it a pretty mature technology, and works pretty well)
ok, it might work on somewhere like the barrier hwy or similar well lit outback roads, but i'd rather build an array farm beside the road (let the road be a road and the array farm an array farm, and never the twain should meet).
this whole thing started with hot pavements (and some publicized stunts), but is reflecting the sunlight a good thing if we're worried by GHG ?
Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
RE: Solar Roadways
By BS I ment it was proposed, but never designed. But he actually built several of them.
With so few cells the voltage would be very small, unless there is an electronics package to invert or change the voltage (another failure mode). Also assuming the life is about the same as for LED's, that would be 11 or 22 years (depending on your assumptions), which seems short for a roadway.
So how do you fix pot holes? Just toss in asphault?
RE: Solar Roadways