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Are you a Structural Engineer?
2

Are you a Structural Engineer?

Are you a Structural Engineer?

(OP)
I've been struggling with an answer to this question for sometime.

So say you are a licensed Professional Engineer that practices structural engineering. Obviously, you have passed the PE exam, but have not yet taken and passed the NCEES SE exam. Can you market yourself as a Structural Engineer in let's say Washington? Washington requires an SE for structures essentially classified as III and IV.

I've seen professionals list themselves as "Structural Engineers" in their email signatures when in fact they are only licensed as a "Professional Engineer".

I've chosen to put "Professional Engineer" with Structural Engineering (my department) listed below.

Thoughts?

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

Check your state rules, each state is different.
I was thinking some states specifically regulated use of the title, not sure if Washington is one- seems like CA is.
Some states don't license by specialty, and that is more likely to be the case in the example you note.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

Depending on your state, you actually cannot use the title "Structural Engineer" without an SE.

I have seen it twisted to Structural Project Engineer...but that is also probably technically not ok.


I'll let the legal minded folks chime in.. plenty of those here.. ready go!

But to answer your question, I think your signature is appropriate.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

From the Washington state rules:
"WAC 196-23-040 Use of the title S.E. Only professional
engineers who have completed the state of Washington’s
requirements for licensure in structural engineering are
permitted to use the title of S.E. when representing his or her
licensing credential, as in, James Smith, P.E., S.E. Use of the
title S.E. by any individual who is not licensed in structural
engineering as provided in chapter 18.43 RCW, is subject to
disciplinary action by the board in accordance with chapter
18.43 RCW and/or chapter 18.235 RCW."

And in one of the exemption paragraphs:
"WAC 196-12-100 Limited waiver of the requirement
for licensure in structural engineering to design "significant
structures." The board may grant a waiver of the
licensing requirement in structural engineering for qualified
candidates. Said waiver is available July 1, 2008. All waivers
issued by the board are not renewable and will expire 12:00
a.m. December 31, 2010. Individuals being issued the waiver
are not permitted to represent themselves as being licensed in
structural engineering or otherwise using any title or advertisement
tending to convey the impression he or she is
licensed in structural engineering."

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

Texas does not license specialties, so any licensed PE can call themselves a structural engineer AS LONG AS they practice within their ability. The state generally recognizes ability as either (1) experience in practice, (2) field of education and degrees obtained, or (3) examination, or a combination thereof.

The universal rule is that use of the title Structural Engineer is limited when a state has passed regulation or legislation which protects the title (Title protection legislation is most common.) For example, California prohibits the use of the SECB designation in the state if the holder is not a licensed SE in California, since it tends to mislead consumers of our services about licensing.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

Arizona is similar to CA.

But what happens when a Civil Eng PE is the EOR for a low-rise structural design, and there is a separate "CEPE" who is the EOR for the civil (site) engineering?

The definition of a structural engineer: overdesign by a factor of 1.999, instead of the usual 2.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

I am a Professional (i.e. licensed) Civil Engineer in California. Since I am not also licensed as a Structural Engineer (for which a Civil license is a prerequisite), I can't call myself a Structural Engineer. Civil is a practice act license, which means only licensed civil engineers can practice civil engineering as defined by the State. Structural is a title act license, which means the use of the title is restricted but not the practice (within certain bounds). With my Civil license I can do a fairly broad range of structural engineering, but I purposely limit myself to small reinforced concrete structures, like retaining walls, culvert headwalls, cast-in-place vaults, etc. The largest reinforced concrete structures I have designed are secondary clarifiers for small waste water treatment plants, but that was a while ago. Most of my work over the past 34 years has been related to municipal and institutional infrastructure.

==========
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

fel3,

Do the laws in CA allow you to do structural calcs of low-rise, meaning 4-stories or less, buildings?

The definition of a structural engineer: overdesign by a factor of 1.999, instead of the usual 2.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

i was just reading about the Medal of Honor. apparently the law defining this medal says "you cannot falsely claim to be a recipient" and goes on i expect to define the penalty. however, someone successfully appealed conviction saying that this law infringed his amendment 1 rights to free speech. could someone claim the same of the engineering acts (and those of other professions) that limit the use of a term, and impose penalties on those who use it without merit ?

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

rb,

I went thru the whole issue years ago w/ the authorities, and got nowhere (civil vs struct, not Medal of Honor)...total waste of time.

The definition of a structural engineer: overdesign by a factor of 1.999, instead of the usual 2.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

(OP)
rb1957:

That's possible, but then I would ask although it might not be "illegal" is it ethical to call yourself an Structural Engineer (in jurisdictions that have separate licensure) when you don't have the proper license?

This is an interesting topic to me. Thanks for all the replies.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

Jay,

If you are a Civil PE, and do the structure 100% of some low-rise, you are the Struct EOR but you cannot advertise yourself as a Strucural Engineer to the public...you can advertise yourslef as a Civil Engineer that is legally allowed to do Structural design of low-rise structures.

The definition of a structural engineer: overdesign by a factor of 1.999, instead of the usual 2.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

Jay, in what state do you practice?

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

AELLC- the rules are online, but if I remember correctly, there are only a fairly limited set of buildings that require an SE in California per the state engineering rules. However, in the past, many owners would expect and/or require an SE even though it was not required by state rules.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

AELLC…

As I recall, I am limited to 2 stories and cannot do schools or hospitals or certain other critical structures. Since I don't do buildings, I haven't looked at those restrictions in a while. The only buildings I have ever done are two small reinforced masonry pumping stations and one small reinforced concrete/masonry pumping station, and that was more than 20 years ago.

Fred

==========
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

AELLC:
You say.... “You are a Civil PE,” “you can advertise yourslef as a Civil Engineer that is legally allowed to do Structural design of low-rise structures.” Does that mean that you would sign your drawing, calcs. and correspondence with AELLC, CEPEtilatdSdolrs? Talk about the rampant title inflation that is going around these days. That’s almost as many letters after your name as I see after some other Engineers and Architects names, these days.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

In some states, you can't even use the word "engineer" unless you're licensed.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

I only practiced in the upper Midwest (MN, MI, WI) but got reciprocity and designed buildings in several other states. I am a Civil Engineer who took all of the optional structural classes that were offered and then spent an additional year taking graduate level structures classes. When I took the PE exam in MN (1977), I had to declare a discipline (i.e. Structural) and the afternoon questions were separated as such. I was also cautioned not to work outside of my field of expertise. This meant I could not do work in other Civil disciplines such as hydraulics, environmental, transportation, etc.

So I am a Structural Engineer, but there was not all the legal BS associated with it back then.

We were all aware that CA (because of earthquakes) and IL (who knows why; maybe somebody got their palm's greased) had special SE requirements. I'm sure other western states had similar requirements, but we were not aware of them.

I would never use the "SE" initials after my name, but I would have my position labeled "Sr. Structural Engineer" on my business card.

Probably because of some of this crap my last employer changed our titles to "Structural Lead". That they were not even recognizing me as an engineer really bugged me!

gjc

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

(OP)
TxStruct: I practice mainly in MT. MT doesn't have a separate recognition for SE's. My firm does however do work in many states.

What really got me thinking about this was the fact that I was just requested to update a resume for an IDIQ contract RFQ. The resume that our word processing sent me was from referred to me as a "Structural Engineer". This particular IDIQ contract would involve buildings in all 50 states. I didn't think it was right to call myself a structural engineer considering some of the states do indeed separate PE's and SE's.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

dhengr:

Quite droll - but what I was advocating was SE1 and SE2, or similar - SE1 being licensed for 1 or 2 stories, no schools, etc.

SE2 would be unrestricted.

Civil PE would be grandfathered, but new CE's would be licensed only for retaining walls less than 10', and the usual Civil structures, within limitations.

The definition of a structural engineer: overdesign by a factor of 1.999, instead of the usual 2.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

AELLC - you can advocate all you want but each individual state will, and has, set their rules on terminology.

It is very difficult to change a state's laws/rules governing the engineering acts - especially with the titles. Utah is the most recent state I'm aware of that has converted to a partial practice act similar to California. Some other states have "title" acts where the title "SE" is restricted but the difference between SE and PE is nothing in terms of who can do what.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

back to my tangent ... i think anyone can call themselves an engineer (or lawyer or accountant) from their 1st amdmt rights, but only licensed engineers can practice engineering (as only licensed lawyers/accountants can practice lawyering(?)/accountancy).

ethically ... well i think there are two answers ...
1) if you aren't one (ie licensed) then you shouldn't call yourself one, or
2) if you believe you fulfill the requirements for being one then you've created the wiggle-room inside your head to allow yourself the ethical tolerance for calling yourself an engineer even if you aren't licensed.

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

I think that as long as you are not misrepresenting yourself, the semantics of being allowed to call oneself an "engineer" or a "structural engineer" are pretty silly. To me, if you graduated with an engineering degree, and are practicing engineering, you're an "engineer" regardless of whether you are licensed as a PE or an SE. I don't know how else a non-PE would describe their job. But I don't make the rules, states do.

JayZ, in your case, I would leave "Structural Engineer" in your job description, so that your role on the project team is clear. Below that you should add "Registered as a Professional Engineer in the following states: XX, XX, XX". That way, you representing yourself and your qualifications clearly, and I can't imagine a Board would beat you up on the ethics of that. You're not going to check with 50 state boards and write "Well, I'm considered a structural engineer in Pennsylvania and a structural design technician in Texas, and..."

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

All S.E.s are structural engineers, but not all structural engineers are S.E.s. I suppose that only applies to states that recognize the S.E. license. I live and work primarily in a state without the S.E. requirement, I may feel differently if I worked in a state with the S.E. license.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

PUEng - I like your logic. I've always been a proponent of Set Theory.

gjc

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

"Structural Engineer in let's say Washington? Washington requires an SE for structures essentially classified as III and IV."

Don't forget local restrictions also. I'm licensed as a Civil PE in Washington but do a lot of residential structures. I can't do any structural engineering in the city of Seattle because they modified the IBC into the Seattle Building Code (SBC) and changed the requirements so that regardless of the type of structure, only licensed structural engineers can do structural engineering within the Seattle City Limits.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

Rock:

That doesn't make sense, SE's don't know how to do residentiallol

The definition of a structural engineer: overdesign by a factor of 1.999, instead of the usual 2.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

I'm taking the SE exam for licensure as a PE in the state of Maine in less than two weeks (gulp). Maine makes no distinction for SE at all. If When I pass do you think it would be improper to put PE, SE after my name? I would meet many (if not all) of the requirements for SE in some of the states that have SE designations and, in the area I would practice, they make no distinction.

(Back to studying...)

Maine EIT, Civil/Structural. Going to take the 1st part of the 16-hour SE test in April, wish me luck!

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

Pirate, you can only add SE after your name if you're licensed as an SE. You can get a Maine PE and an Illinois SE (I don't think Illinois has any additional testing requirements beyond passing the 16-hr test, but you do need to apply and get approved by the Illinois board).

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

As a PE, if you have a firm, you can advertise in the State of Washington as performing structural engineering services, up to a point as previously mentioned, as PE's can legally do some structural engineering, and do.

However you cannot purport to be a structural engineer by putting "SE" in your personal signature block unless you have passed the SE test. In fact, my stamp specifically reads "Structural Engineer", not "Professional Engineer". Before getting my SE 33 years ago, it did say "Professional Engineer". I still have that stamp... Why? I don't know...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

rb1957…

Here in California, it's OK for anyone to call him/herself an "engineer." However, it is not OK for anyone to call him/herself a "civil engineer", an "electrical engineer", a "structural engineer", etc. because the use of those titles is protected by law to those who are properly licensed by the state. In addition, the practice of some of those disciplines is also protected. In this case, the First Amendment does not supersede the legal requirement for licensure.

==========
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

The last company I worked for recently changed their email signature and business cards to remove "Structural Engineer" titles, replacing it simply with "Structural Engineering Department". Names were still suffixed with PE, SE, PEng, but they were subscripted with which states a person was a PE, an SE or which provinces a PEng. It looked clumsy at first but really removed any grey area... Score one for the legal department!

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

Mighty Pirate

It wouldn't be proper to put SE after your name until you are granted an SE license by a State which registers S.E.s. Just like it would not be proper to call yourself a Professional Engineer if no State has licensed you.

I have passed the SEII but since I never applied for licensure anywhere as an SE I don't use S.E. in my signature. (But my title at work is that of "Structural Engineer").

It's a little screwy. We could all be in the habit of putting where and how we are registered in all correspondence, but that's a little over the top. Medical Doctors and Lawyers don't state which State they are licensed by (most of the time). When a doctor leaves the State, it's not like he is no longer a doctor.

The imporatant thing is that you not solicit work under false pretenses.



RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

JLNJ: Hmmm, interesting. Not saying you're wrong but for the sake of counter-argument here's my original point of view.

Maine has no title restrictions on Structural Engineer or SE so I could use them inside Maine as much as I want if I was a licensed PE. I wouldn't be advertising outside of Maine but obviously might send an email or something outside of the state or be asked to do work outside of the state and possibly have to get licensed in that state. However, I don't believe I would be operating under false pretenses because having passed the SE exam and being a licensed PE in Maine I could get licensed in many states as an SE.

I guess another way of looking at it is people put SE after their name if they're licensed in Illinois lets say. However, they likely don't meet the requirements to be licensed in California but they don't put that in every little email or letter they send out, they simply say SE.

In the end, I will obviously strive to follow your important point of not soliciting work under false pretenses.

Maine EIT, Civil/Structural.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

Pirate-
The Maine rules are the final word on what is acceptable in Maine. I think, though, that you'd find where a state doesn't license SE's as such, there would be correspondingly less meaning behind the letters anyway. There may also be a requirement to identify yourself as a PE.

The issue of using a PE title when carrying on correspondence in a state where you're not registered has come up before, and it is an awkward/gray area. Texas issued a clarification on it, I'll see if I can run that up here later.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

"The issue of using a PE title when carrying on correspondence in a state where you're not registered has come up before".,.

There is nothing wrong with that, as long as you stipulate which state you are licensed in, along with the corresponding title.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

So, basically, I could say "PE, SE" but in any correspondence, official letters, advertisements, etc. outside of Maine I could only say "PE Maine" and nothing else. Or I suppose I could say "Maine PE, SE" as long as the state doesn't have a title restriction on SE, but that would probably be confusing and/or misleading.

Maybe the best way to do it would be:
[Name] PE, SE
Licensed Maine Professional Engineer

It will just become really confusing if I get licensed in a bunch of states...

Maine EIT, Civil/Structural.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

If Maine doesn't have SE class, then you say only PE, period.

As opposed to CA, if you have both PE and SE it makes more sense to say SE only. PE is understood.

The definition of a structural engineer: overdesign by a factor of 1.999, instead of the usual 2.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

Just don't say, "An engineer of many states". They'll think you need therapy.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

"If Maine doesn't have SE class, then you say only PE, period."

This seems to be the consensus. I'll have to ponder on this a bit but I suspect you guys are right.

Maine EIT, Civil/Structural.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

msquared, the issue I have seen is that I have an email signature block that says "JStephen PE", but doesn't say which states I'm licensed in and which I'm not. Normally not an issue, but could be misleading if I'm emailing someone in, say, Washington. But I don't recall ever seeing somebody list out 20 or 30 states after their name, either.

The Texas letter of clarification related specifically to people that lived in Texas and were licensed elsewhere, as to whether they could refer to themselves as "John Doe PE" or not, and the short answer is, they're supposed to say "John Doe PE in State X, Not Licensed in Texas" or something to that effect. Anyway, the letter is here: http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/nm/pa10_responseletter...

I don't see anywhere that the rules in Texas prohibit the use of the SE designation or title, but they don't specifically allow for it either. But, for example:

"A person licensed under this chapter shall use the term 'Engineer,' 'Professional Engineer,' or 'P.E.' in the professional use of the person’s name on a sign, directory, listing, document, contract, pamphlet, stationery, advertisement, signature, or another similar written or printed form of identification."
So by that requirement, if you wanted to use the SE in Texas, you'd still have to use the PE also.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

If you're routinely in a state that doesn't have an S.E. practice act, I see no problem with John Smith, PE, SE. The "SE" is not going to mean anything except in the 8 or so states where SE's are licensed separately and are required for certain projects. If "SE" doesn't mean anything in your state, I would doubt that your state board would ding you for that. But again, check with your specific jurisdiction.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

It ALL comes down to the individual state or states you are licensed. Many states do not license by disciplines, so in those states we are all PEs who are authorized to practice engineering. Bound by a code of engineering ethics, we (PEs) agree that we will only practice in the areas where we are competent. Some states define competency in different ways (i.e. education, testing, experience, etc.). I know Mechanical Engineers who practice Structural Engineering and vice-versa, b/c in the state where they are licensed, and as long as they are confident in their work, they have every right to seal these designs.

In other states, like some of you have mentioned, they do license PEs by discipline. Some of these states include Arizona, Louisiana, Nevada, District of Columbia, and Hawaii. For these states where I am registered, it specifically says on my seals that I am a Registered/Licensed Professional Engineer in Structural Engineering (in some form or fashion). In other states like California, Washington, and Illinois, they specifically recognize a SE. That doesn't mean ONLY a SE can design structures in those states that recognize the SE, but in most cases those states define limits (building size, height, or classification) on what a Civil PE can seal structurally and what projects a SE must seal the docs. It generally comes down the complexity of the project as the limits are defined.

TehMightyPirate...upon successful completion of the NCEES Structural exam, you will be a Structural Engineer, but recognized in your state of Maine as simply a Professional Engineer. It is certainly acceptable to provide your signature as John Doe, PE - Structural Engineer. As this list your licensed credentials (PE in Maine), but also lets those know that you practice structural engineering as opposed to the other disciplines of engineering. Once you pass the NCEES exam, you may be interested in seeking the Model Law Structural Engineer (MLSE) designation from NCEES which will help further define your experience and qualifications. It also helps in some states to speed along the licensing process when seeking reciprocity or comity to become licensed in other states especially if it is a state that licenses by discipline or recognizes the SE designation.

Also like JLNJ stated, most (if not all) Structural PEs who are not licensed in a state like CA, IL, or WA that specifically recognize a SE license, only use PE in the signature credentials, b/c using SE otherwise would lead some to believe you are a SE registered in one of those three states, where in reality you are not. Keep in mind also that the path in most of the SE states to become a licensed SE requires a PE license first in Civil and then you reapply for the SE license after having met additional requirements specific to each state.

And yes, as some have mentioned as well, if you are corresponding (letters, emails, etc.) out of state to another state where you are not licensed as a PE...be careful. You should be clarifying what state(s) you are licensed to practice if sending correspondence to a state in which you are not licensed, as this can also be misleading to others reviewing your work. It can also be taken to mean that you are offering engineering services in the recipient's state which can be a direct violation of many state boards where if caught, you could be subject to disciplinary action and fines.

Again, be sure to pay attention and read your state's laws and any other state's laws in which you seek to be licensed or upcoming projects you may be seeking to provide a proposal for engineering services. In many states, not only do you need an individual PE license in that state, but your firm or company must be licensed to practice with the state's engineering board and authorized to do business with the specific secretary of state... and this includes advertising to provide engineering services or bidding on upcoming projects as well. In other words, in a lot of states, it's illegal for an engineering firm to submit a proposal for engineering services for a project in another state(where the firm isn't licensed) and THEN become licensed once the project is rewarded.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

cetiger: Great writeup, that really does a good job of summarizing much of my thoughts and much of what people have previously posted. Assuming I pass and become licensed I think this is my course of action:

Inquire with my state board as to any rules I may have missed regarding the use of the term structural engineer (there should be none). I will also apply to NCEES for the MLSE designation as I should be able to meet that. From there I seem to have a choice, I can use John Doe PE, SE and to heck with the confusion. Or, probably the better approach is just get licensed in Illinois which differentiates between PE and SE but does not require a PE prior to getting and SE. I'm also curious about what would happen if I tried to get a PE in another state using a Maine PE license if that state didn't accept the 16-hour SE exam in lieu of the usual PE exams.

And, as you and others pointed out, I clearly cannot use PE or SE in a state without specifying that I am not licensed in that state. Good point also about submitting proposals for work without currently being licensed as an engineer.

Great tips everyone, I'm glad I asked.

Maine EIT, Civil/Structural.

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

TehMP.... once you pass the SE exam, you will not have any problems becoming a PE in other states. I passed the SE I and SE II back in the day when the test was two separate parts and the SE II was optional to be a PE practicing structural in most states. Only a hand full of states required the additional SE II exam years ago, and those where typically the states that licensed SEs specifically. Keep in mind that meeting the MLSE designation still does not give you the credentials to put SE behind your name, as that again implies you are registered as a SE in Illinois, Cali or Washington. The way your name would read after meeting the MLSE would be John Doe, PE, MLSE until you went on to get licensed in a SE state...and yes, I have the Illinois SE which does not require a PE license prior, but in CA it does require that I seek a Civil PE first and then SE license. You however have an advantage over some of us who took the two-part SE I and SE II exams years ago. Since NCEES implemented the new 16hr Structural exam, states like CA and WA now except it without any additional testing, which is good for you. Prior to the 16hr Structural, you had to take SE I, SE II, and a state specific exam some referred to as the SE III...that's a lot of testing! B/c these states recognize the new 16hr Structural, they no longer offer their state specific SE III exams. Therefore for me to meet the CA/WA SE requirements, I'm required to take (which in my mind is retake) the new 16hr Structural exam. I remember my days of just taking one of the 8 hr Structural exams at a time and that was mind-numbing by the end of the day. I can't imagine having to turnaround and do it all over again the very next day. I get it, I guess, just don't want to do it again. Best of luck to you and any others sitting for the 16hr SE in the coming weeks!

RE: Are you a Structural Engineer?

Yep... That 16 hour marathon was a mind bender, and a few beers were required during the post-mortem.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

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