What would you have done?
What would you have done?
(OP)
So I got a call to go out and investigate a potentially "sagging" wall with "some cracking". I told him over the phone my initial fee was $X for a typical inspection. He asked if I could look at the roof as well for the same price since they were having leaks and I do roofing design also. I said sure no problem-already there why not.
I get to the job to find a really old one story commercial building with a walk out basement. Long story short-the members are all rough sawn timber with joist/girder/column construction. The timber is large as you would expect and everything is one piece i.e. no plys for any of the members.
The back of the structural system rotted out due to insects, moisture, etc. Owner had a contractor come out and "fix" the problem using (5) ply 2x12s for columns and girders and sistering rotted joists with 2x12s as well. The conversation got uncomfortable when I asked if the contactor used an engineer and where were the stamped design documents. I told the Owner I couldn't do it for $x anymore and would have to validate what I can see (which was most of it) and discredit things like the new concrete which I can't verify. Also mentioned anything I came up with that needed to be fixed, replaced, etc. would be a requirement and not optional. I told them I would do it for double the original price with disclaimers about I can't check what I can't see, etc. Pretty sure I scared them off. The Owner was going to talk to the tenant about it. Thoughts?
I get to the job to find a really old one story commercial building with a walk out basement. Long story short-the members are all rough sawn timber with joist/girder/column construction. The timber is large as you would expect and everything is one piece i.e. no plys for any of the members.
The back of the structural system rotted out due to insects, moisture, etc. Owner had a contractor come out and "fix" the problem using (5) ply 2x12s for columns and girders and sistering rotted joists with 2x12s as well. The conversation got uncomfortable when I asked if the contactor used an engineer and where were the stamped design documents. I told the Owner I couldn't do it for $x anymore and would have to validate what I can see (which was most of it) and discredit things like the new concrete which I can't verify. Also mentioned anything I came up with that needed to be fixed, replaced, etc. would be a requirement and not optional. I told them I would do it for double the original price with disclaimers about I can't check what I can't see, etc. Pretty sure I scared them off. The Owner was going to talk to the tenant about it. Thoughts?






RE: What would you have done?
They will hire someone else in your stead.
The definition of a structural engineer: overdesign by a factor of 1.999, instead of the usual 2.
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It is obvious that, by doing engineering on one particular component, that you assume liability and responsibility for the entire structure because of the nature of a typical retrofit/repair job.
On the other hand, if Client B asks you to design a small addition to his existing building, then yoare NOT responsible for any design defects in the existing building.
However, if you happened to notice a defect in Client B's building, and your comment was documented somewhere, that COULD come back and bite you in the rear.
The definition of a structural engineer: overdesign by a factor of 1.999, instead of the usual 2.
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Dik
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I find it odd that a wall has mold. Mold is a ventilation issue, how is a wall having problems with ventilation? How is so much moisture in the wall?
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When I arrived, the structure was obviously new. Like 15 years old at most. Apparently there had been a fire, and it was rebuilt with very minor members according to (at a guess) the Farm Code of Canada.
We provided a one page disclaimer-report at a fee of $250 which read like a quote for works. Haven't received a call back, and have not received a payment. I don't care about the money, and it was MUCH more about the disclaimer. Something similar may be of value to you, as you don't want to find yourself being "the engineer was here and said xxxx____xxxxx_____xxxx."
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CEL-that's exactly what I was worried about. He offered to pay me for my time there but I politely declined and said either I evaluated the location 100% or not at all. But technically I have nothing in writing to him saying he needs to have that part of the building designed/certified. I am thinking about emailing him to formally offer the new price and clarify what its for as kind of a CYA if nothing else. What is the flavor of the disclaimer you use if you don't mind me asking?
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I think I've posted something like to help someone before, but here it goes. Note that I have removed job-specific paragraphs and replaced with statements as to what they were...
-Intro, thank you, etc-
-Reported to site (date & time), weather, who we met-
-What areas entered; Review of potential work, not in any way an inspection-
Your existing barn structure appears to have been designed to a version of the National Farm Building Code of Canada (NFBCC), a code specifically intended for buildings with a low probability of loss of life, in addition to increased requirements due to the quasi-industrial nature of farm work. Such structures are not easily adapted to the requirements of the OBC if recently built, but ironically older examples of these structures are frequently easy to adapt. In order to argue field testing of such a property, it is key that the property have been structurally unchanged through a substantial period of time as well as be in very good to excellent condition. While our review was of a limited and preliminary visual nature, your structure appears to be in excellent condition (though specific verification would be required). The age of the roof structure, and particularly the duration through which the current layout has been subject to load is unlikely to be found sufficient to justify the field tested argument under CBD 230. Given the preliminary nature of our visit, we do not have sufficient information to offer you a professional opinion regarding the applicability of a modern code to your structure, however our initial findings indicate that your structure does not qualify for exclusion of the application of the structural requirements of OBC-2012 outlined above.
-Closing, signature line, etc-
- This report was prepared for <<Client>> and represents the best judgement of <<YOU>> given the information available at the time of writing. Any use which a third party makes of this report, or any reliance upon, decisions made in response to or in any way influenced by this report are the responsibility of such third party.
- Sufficient information to make a definitive professional recommendation is not available and would require further investigation at the cost of the Owner. As such any advice or recommendation(s) made herein are entirely without responsibility.
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grogannc...you were put in a position that requires engineering response. In the event that you viewed code violations, you have an obligation to inform the owner that such violations exist and they must be corrected. In the event they are not corrected, you have an obligation to report them if there is a potential to compromise the health, safety or welfare of the public (which would include future buyers).
Write a letter to the owner outlining all the issues you saw. Explain to him your obligation to the public and his need to correct the deficiencies or get a licensed engineer to validate them. You do not want to get pulled into something later for little or no fee!
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Your point, however, is excellent. ANYTHING which is visibly dangerous, which ANY ENGINEER sees at ANY TIME is something we are duty bound to report to the Owner. Actually the report which I have posted portions of (see above) has just such statements within, and I should have made this point in my previous post.
RE: What would you have done?
Those are good points. I did spend an hour walking the building looking for cracking in masonry, members, any of the new concrete, large deflections in members, etc.
I ended up writing the owner a scoping report which allowed me to state many times that I could not perform an inspection based on the information available, suggested contacting the EOR for the repairs, made good use of the phrase in my opinion, could not determine the risk to life/safety of the occupants at the time of the walk-through in my opinion, etc.