Going backwards in technology...?
Going backwards in technology...?
(OP)
So my boss wants me, and the rest of our group, to essentially go back to the way things were done about 10 years ago...
My boss has no current understanding of ANY of the software that I (and others in my group) use - which includes various CAD/CADD programs, some BIM, and some other 3D programs. He got frustrated because our last project "took too long" and he felt that since he doesn't know the current software, then he needs to step us back in time to a point where he does understand the tech (which he last used about 10 years ago).
My group all feels that this is ridiculous knee-jerk reaction to the problems with our last project...
I don't want to bore everyone with the details, but the software was NOT the problem: it was one of communication (lack-of) and last-minute changes with no accounting by management for the time it takes to make such changes.
Nevertheless, I had a lengthy discussion with my boss that this is not the way to do things. The step back to older ways of doing things may help him understand the process better, but it only adds to our entire group's workload. Thus making the inevitable last-minute changes twice as difficult! I further explained the communication and change issues as well.
However, he was not swayed, and continues to insist that we do things the old way, and then MAYBE, on the next project we will slowly go back to current way - but not entirely... he "will see".
I understand that managers need to manage, but this feels more like a power issue. I say he should learn the software and get up-to-date on what he is managing, which is basically my question...
Should we fight back, and "emphatically request" that he updates himself, or should we just capitulate and say "yes boss" ??
(P.S. I purposely left out details of my job description, industry, specific software, etc... b/c I believe that the discussion should not be about that... it is more about the principle!)
My boss has no current understanding of ANY of the software that I (and others in my group) use - which includes various CAD/CADD programs, some BIM, and some other 3D programs. He got frustrated because our last project "took too long" and he felt that since he doesn't know the current software, then he needs to step us back in time to a point where he does understand the tech (which he last used about 10 years ago).
My group all feels that this is ridiculous knee-jerk reaction to the problems with our last project...
I don't want to bore everyone with the details, but the software was NOT the problem: it was one of communication (lack-of) and last-minute changes with no accounting by management for the time it takes to make such changes.
Nevertheless, I had a lengthy discussion with my boss that this is not the way to do things. The step back to older ways of doing things may help him understand the process better, but it only adds to our entire group's workload. Thus making the inevitable last-minute changes twice as difficult! I further explained the communication and change issues as well.
However, he was not swayed, and continues to insist that we do things the old way, and then MAYBE, on the next project we will slowly go back to current way - but not entirely... he "will see".
I understand that managers need to manage, but this feels more like a power issue. I say he should learn the software and get up-to-date on what he is managing, which is basically my question...
Should we fight back, and "emphatically request" that he updates himself, or should we just capitulate and say "yes boss" ??
(P.S. I purposely left out details of my job description, industry, specific software, etc... b/c I believe that the discussion should not be about that... it is more about the principle!)





RE: Going backwards in technology...?
To win what? And at what cost? If you're willing to pay that price, sure then fight on.
==> he was not swayed, and continues to insist that we do things the old way, and then MAYBE, on the next project we will slowly go back to current way - but not entirely... he "will see".
Who works for whom?
Play it his way and when and if you're boss allows a 'maybe', make the most of it so your boss experiences the benefits, not just hears about it from someone fighting against him.
Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
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RE: Going backwards in technology...?
Thanks for the response, and to answer your questions:
==> To win what?
To keep my work/life balance! With our current technology, our group already pushes the boundaries of extreme overtime on the back end of a project (which we don't get paid for, since we're all salaried employees), but with doing things the old way, we are looking at at least a 20% increase in manhours (but probably more like 40% because we haven't done it the old way for so long, and some of the younger guys = never!). Our typical projects run about 2 months time, and as with most industries, it is in the last third/quarter of a project where all the changes occur and where the need for flexibility comes into play (which has been made easier to do with the current software). I've been in my industry for 18 years, and my boss has been at it for about 20 - but he didn't go the tech route. I did. I've seen the software changes over the years, and I know what works and what doesn't, but even so, my experience and explanations don't seem to be able to change his mind.
==> If you're willing to pay that price, sure then fight on.
Yes, I am. My skills are in demand. I turn away/ignore head-hunters on a bi-weekly basis, at least. But who really enjoys changing jobs? I have a fairly good thing going where I'm at, other than a week of 80+ hours once every 2 or 3 months, and then this current boss issue...
==> Play it his way...
I get your point, but he has experienced the benefits on every other past project that has come in on time and on/under budget for the last 5 years. I see his reaction as simply an OVER-reaction to the problems on our last project. It seems to me that he's obviously frustrated that he doesn't know the technology, but to make our whole group pay (in extra overtime, frustration, and eventually lower morale) for his lack of skills, just seems completely asinine to me.
So, with that said, I suppose what I am asking for - is that if I choose to "fight on", then how would other people approach it?
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
If there is no mutual respect between the boss and the group, then maybe the old method will mysteriously take much longer than it should. The proof at the end of the project will be undeniable. The group can control the outcome regardless of what the boss says, and the boss will not win (if you are discreet enough, will not even know about) that type of power struggle. Not recommended!
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
First all, the work/home balance and overtime situation is important, but an entirely different issue. I absolutely understand the need for work/home balance, and I fully support that you should be paid for all overtime. But if you're not being paid for overtime, then you address that issue. It really doesn't matter if the overtime is spend doing things the old way or how you would like them, if you're not being paid for overtime, then address that. I get your point about doing things the old way will take longer, thus will require more overtime, but not being paid for overtime is not being paid for overtime regardless of which system you're working.
==> Yes, I am.
Then by all means, engage with the next headhunter and move on. No one enjoys changing jobs, but you're far better off securing the new job while you're struggling with the current one, than fighting the current job, and perhaps losing, and having to secure that next job without being in a current one.
I'm not disagreeing that he's over-reacting and as you say, being asinine; however, I am suggesting that it be equally unwise to challenge him on that at this time. It's apparent that you've tried to talk to him, but he has chosen to go in that direction. I don't want you to over-react to his decision and reject his authority and make an unwise move yourself.
Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
What exactly would be involved to "essentially go back to the way things were done about 10 years"?
Would it entail using 2D instead of 3D?
Drawing board vs CAD?
Excel instead of BIM?
Without knowing at least some details it's hard to understand the extent of the problem, or to suggest compromises.
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
Since those were the days of 2D cad the step back was literally "to the boards".
Fortunately I was not a project that I was working on.
The outcome was that the product was so bad that after a few years of trying to make it work the end user scrapped ours and replaced it all with a competitor's equipment - at substantial cost.
Think they ever got any more work with that client?
You don't have a tool problem, you have a process problem - or so it appears from your telling.
Your boss measures success in time and money. That's what bosses do.
You need to convince him in those terms.
Show him in detail exactly where the time was lost and the money wasted - accurately and dispassionately.
Suggest SOLUTIONS.
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
Get a new job.
Then, leave.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
This is a great opportunity to work on your "interpersonal" skill. As every boss and company ticks a little differently, I have no good advice for you on how to do this. I have pushed a boss to the point of telling me where the door was, so my advice might not be helpful anyway.
Good Luck
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
Nevertheless, I'll try to respond to all:
1gibson:
I thought there was mutual respect - until this came up. I did provide several detailed examples in my first meeting with my boss after he made the announcement. I did ask him about the screwed up project and his perspective, and all I got was a flippant response with no hint that he cared about the "why" things went wrong. Mentioning all the past "good" projects was moot - as he made it clear that his agenda was the gospel and we are doing it his way from now on.
Clearly, the mutual respect was gone. As you mentioned, going the passive-aggressive route and sand-bagging on the next job is not recommended, nor is it my M.O.
CanjunCenturion:
Good advice on not overreacting and making an unwise move to soon. I agree, finding a new job is always easier when you still have your current one - always good advice to hear when one is frustrated with their current situation.
The overtime topic is definitely one for another thread, but to briefly touch on that... I honestly had not minded it so much when it was just the last week or so of a project, and the times in between projects were fairly light - thus it all balanced out in my mind. But this new mandate was that famous proverbial straw...
CorBlimeyLimey:
As I mentioned in my OP, I don't think the specifics are necessary because I believe that will take the discussion down a different path. This is more of a principle question for me... Am I right in feeling that my boss should be more educated on the software our team uses? I don't expect him to be an expert - that's our jobs - but shouldn't I be able to explain the process to him, and have him understand it, and then shouldn't he further understand why something went wrong (on 1 project in the past 5 years) and not overreact and blame the tool...?
MintJulep:
Good example. Good advice. I will approach my boss with our estimated increased labor numbers and see where that gets me. Although, being salaried and working on a business development budget (i.e. overhead and not client-billable), it is doubtful that the overtime numbers will give him much pause - as he is of the mindset that we are paid to "get the job done" - not by the hour.
MikeHalloran:
Yep. That's most likely the end-game strategy. Thanks for the response.
dvd:
My boss made it an absolute issue. See my first response just above to 1gibson. It seems pretty cut and dry to me. 1 bad project in 5 years, same team, same tech, same level of detail... only difference was the last project was poorly managed (outside of our group) and had poor communication across teams that trickled down and affected my group. My boss is feeling pressure from above for a flawed project, and I understand his frustration, but he made it clear that this was his decision to go backwards because that's how he feels he can best manage things. He was not inclined to hear arguments to the contrary.
moltenmetal:
Thanks for the response - glad I'm not the only one with no idea how to fix this.
Gymmeh:
You are right - this is pretty much the the breaking point for me... I either have to figure out how to get through to my boss, or find the door. As a mentioned above, I thought there was mutual respect and that he was open to input from his team, but apparently that only worked when things were going well. It is very frustrating to realize that what I thought was a good team - is now potentially crumbling because of one bad project and the overreactions of one person. I thought I had used all my best negotiation skills when I first discussed this issue with my boss - but he simply wouldn't hear me out.
Bottom line: my job hunt has begun.
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
I've never been able to really persuade to them why this is a bad idea, the fan boys of the other CAD system have more clout than me I guess such that even when we did an ROI & investigation that basically made it clear it didn't pay off they didn't really accept this.
It's reared its head again and my attempts at dodging it aren't looking like being successful and it's been made one of my goals for the year.
I made it as clear as I could to my immediate manager that I don't think it's a good idea, that I don't want to lead the project but that I'm not going to stand in the way if they want to do it.
So I've put my job seeking efforts up into the next gear.
Sorry, don't know what to tell you - the only thing that's helped me so far is someone in another department that is affected by the CAD change seems to have a bit more sense and managed to keep this on the back burner.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
Going over your boss's head will never have a good outcome for you.
You may be thinking 'unless you already have a back channel to a higher up'. BTDT; that doesn't turn out well either.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
Doug
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
I Agree with you that FEA is often missed used and ultimately just creates a pretty picture when a couple quick equations out of the Machinerys Hand book would suffice (for Mechanical Stuff).
When talking about 2D Cad aka Etch A Sketch, compared to 3D modeling, I completely disagree. Correctly using 3D modeling is epically (is that a word?) faster and more efficient then 2D.
The big problem I have run into in my 3rd companies now, is that people experienced in 2d want to use the same work flow for 3d as 2d. The most efficient work flow and design cycle is very different for 3d.
Half of my current job is update the work flow from a 2d to a 3d. This is my second time doing this, and last time it took about 2 years to transition a 50 person company from 2d to 3d. It takes a while to get everyone drinking the 3d kool-aid .
Cheers.
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
Look at it from your customers perspective instead. Do they expect the job to be done a certain way using a certain kind of software? Can you produce everythign they expect today using the old methods? Do they only want the output on paper or do they need electronic files in a certain format? What about the guys making what ever you are designing? Will the old method create extra work for them?
Your problem is not technical but you may find a technical solution. Will the old software cause problems for IT? Does it even run on your new 64 bit windows 7 computers?
The easiest way to avoid this for it to cause too much pain for someone else that is not under your bosses authority.
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
Now, think about the practicality of the situation. How is it going to be possible to actually go "backward"? You haven't told us any of the specifics on purpose so I really have to wonder exactly what is going on. You can't load an old CAD system into your network and expect any of your past jobs to be useable. Old software does not accept new software. Old software has a hard time running on new computer systems, as HDS points out.
Really, this whole thing sounds fishy to me-- I don't see any possible way your boss can get what he wants without a huge amount of time, money and resources wasted in the effort. Certainty he has someone he needs to report to. If not, then I think he will soon realize that he is the one that needs to get with the program.
I say ride it out with a resume in the works just in case, and avoid the advice that is absolute. No one on this forum knows the specifics and contrary to your belief that they are not important.... they are indeed.
Ten-years? that's a long time.
Charlie
www.facsco.com
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
I can spend hours modelling a platform with all the details, or I can spend five minutes with a calculator getting something that's not as exact but effectively the same for engineering purposes. I can model out a transmission line and get everything down to the millimeter, or I can use a nomograph and a few charts and come up with enough to do construction in half an hour. I can do a modal analysis, or a time history analysis of a building, or I can do a simplified static analysis on one sheet of paper.
In some cases, doing the first option is the right way to go, but doing it all the time kills you on time and budget. You can save a great deal of time and money by identifying spots where a 'modern' workflow is actually less efficient. It's not going back ten years, in that case, it's identifying the right tool for the job.
It's really easy to get it stuck in your head that the newest way is the best, when it isn't necessarily. I know I've certainly gotten myself into situations before where my head is stuck on doing things the way one specific toolset solves the problem and, as a result ended up making things much more involved than they really needed to be.
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
As for you and your group moving ten years back on the software, I would write a petition signed by all describing the impact of going back to the old software then get it to him anonymously; the author of the petition (you) should not be identified. The petition should make it clear that the issue will be elevated to his boss if he doesn't change his mind.
Tunalover
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
Lessons learned review, autopsy, deep-dive - whatever buzz term you want to use - you need to find out why the last project failed (poor communication apparently)and make changed to address that. Did the new software cause it? Would the old method have avoided it? Can the new software be used in a similar fashion as the old to address the specific failure point?
I said drive towards a compromise.
RE: Going backwards in technology...?
Instead of just saying, "We can't do that" offer some suggestions of what we CAN do. It is much easier to say "That won't work" than it is to say "Here's something that might work better."
See this for what it is: an opportunity dressed as a problem. Help to solve it and you help yourself.
EVEN IF he still insists on doing it the old way, you should STILL volunteer to be the man to help the next project go quicker. That effort alone will give you more credibility the next time around. It takes SO LITTLE to stand out above the crowd.