The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
(OP)
http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/...
Long article, but here are a couple of my favorite snippets.
"Were there to be a genuine shortage at present, there would be evidence of employers raising wage offers to attract the scientists and engineers they want. But the evidence points in the other direction: Most studies report that real wages in many—but not all—science and engineering occupations have been flat or slow-growing, and unemployment as high or higher than in many comparably-skilled occupations."
"Labor markets for scientists and engineers also differ geographically. Employer demand is far higher in a few hothouse metropolitan areas than in the rest of the country, especially during boom periods. Moreover recruitment of domestic professionals to these regions may be more difficult than in others when would-be hires discover that the remuneration employers are offering does not come close to compensating for far higher housing and other costs."
Long article, but here are a couple of my favorite snippets.
"Were there to be a genuine shortage at present, there would be evidence of employers raising wage offers to attract the scientists and engineers they want. But the evidence points in the other direction: Most studies report that real wages in many—but not all—science and engineering occupations have been flat or slow-growing, and unemployment as high or higher than in many comparably-skilled occupations."
"Labor markets for scientists and engineers also differ geographically. Employer demand is far higher in a few hothouse metropolitan areas than in the rest of the country, especially during boom periods. Moreover recruitment of domestic professionals to these regions may be more difficult than in others when would-be hires discover that the remuneration employers are offering does not come close to compensating for far higher housing and other costs."





RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
Hard to believe a 50+ engineer could walk into any of a dozen utilities and be hired. Also positions available as auditor if I wanted to travel.
Not a lot of engineering jobs like that. I am also seeing retirees being hired for temp workload, because there are no job shoppers in this area.
The story of shortages seems to exist only in a few specilities, and wages aren't going up because the current population with that specility don't want to be that moble.
So I see these stories as part of the picture, and the proposed solutions as part of an answer. But in no way is this the whole story, and proposed soltions are not the whole answer.
In general, there are more engineers than we have positions for. But in some specialties there is a shortage, and that can't be fixed by bringing people from somewhere else.
What needs to happen is companies need to step up with internal training programs, but budgets won't allow that to happen on a large enough scale.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
In case you didn't see this excellent article- well worth a read. There's big money in pretending that there'll be a shortage on the horizon. These folks have been crying "wolf" since the 30s. The sidebar has a quote from someone famous predicting an imminent shortage, in every decade since the 1930s...
As to recruiting in remote locations: professionals tend to marry other professionals, not all of whom are in "portable" professions like teaching and medicine/nursing. Providing a job for one spouse ain't gonna cut it.
The only shortage their is, if there is any shortage, is a shortage of people who weren't hired into particular fields 10 years ago as fresh grads. That's not a shortage, that's a succession-planning problem.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
Employers don't seem to be interested in training anybody these days because it takes time and costs money. This means that you have to invest in your employees in order to get the benefits from that investment. It's much easier to let some other company pay for that and then cherry pick the people you want. Then you don't have to invest anything in training and your new employees can be expected to work productively from day 1. Ideally these companies want people with 10 to 15 years of relevant work experience, because they are relatively young so they don't expect to be paid too much, they are on average healthier than the older members of the work force which translates to lower health care costs, and they would be expected to be more productive. Employers want to have enough of these candidates readily available so that they don't have to offer significant wage increases in order to hire them. And if they fear this might be the case in the next few years, they yell SHORTAGE to get college enrollments up. And clueless students take the bait, not realizing that in four years they'll be saddled with a massive amount of college debt and no job prospects. And they will still be hearing the siren call from government and industry of SHORTAGE.
Some of these guys are real bastards.
Maui
www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
That sums up the electronics side of Electrical Engineering the past decade.
Today, employers are so specific about job qualifications that only a "purple squirrel" who will work for mininum wage need apply.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
I am passionate about STEM, but I think they also need to teach their students some "soft" skills that businesses like, as well as how to market themselves. Even if you are a tech genius, the guy with the bigger smile or friend on the inside has a much better chance.
To get back on track..
It's amazing how many engineers I meet in Ontario that don't do engineering. ...
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." L. da Vinci
- Gian
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
These folks are really "doing Engineering" in their day jobs, but they have been so ingrained in University that "all necessary parameters will be in the problem statement and there will be no irrelevant parameters in the problem statement" that even simplified real-world problems are beyond their ability to set up. One guy read through the problem statement on every exercise. Got a disgusted look on his face. Went for a smoke. Every time. I finally asked him why he wasn't attempting to set the problems up and he replied "what's the point, the answers are always in the back of the book". He didn't buy my "I don't care about the destination, I'm interested in the journey" line.
My contention is that the only way you can get an oversupply of Engineers is if you have lowered the standard to acquire that title to the point where too many of the practitioners can't set up an Engineering problem and you need 3-4 times as many to do any task so that maybe you'll get one critical thinker.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
The worst part was this was made possible by using computer software. Ugh. 30 years earlier and this corporate-money-generating-venture would have been unthinkable and impossible to implement.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
http://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-goo...
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
However, I sometimes feel that if our system was more like the german one we would be better off in some ways.
Their universities have strong connections to industry and many times their students have specialized training for companies that have connections with their university. This, of course, makes attaining an engineering job after graduation quite simple.
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." L. da Vinci
- Gian
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
One such program which I'm intimately familiar with is something called P.A.C.E. (Partners for the Advancement of Collaborative Engineering Education) initiated by General Motors and which has attracted several partners to the program, Siemens being one of them.
For some information about this program, please go to:
http://pacepartners.org/
For a list of the P.A.C.E. partners, go to:
http://pacepartners.org/partners.php
And for a list of participating universities, go to:
http://pacepartners.org/institutions.php
Now, I would hope to think that this isn't the only such program out there. If any of you are aware of others, perhaps it would be of interest if you would post what you know as well.
And then of course, we have our own corporate initiatives when it comes to supporting academic organizations:
http://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/en_us/academ...
Again, I'm sure that many companies have initiatives like this, particularly those who can provide not only monetary support but also technology and tools that can be used by schools to support their engineering programs.
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
And maybe students should be asking for stats on former grads ability to find a job. After all trade schools seem proud to state that over 90% of there grads are employed in the industry they study in.
Why aren't universities making such statments? Why don't universities have to compete for students, and why is it assumed the piece of paper is all that is required to get a job?
I must admit I have a little distain here for some of what happens at universities, because most have sports programs and require masive injections of money from the state. The few privite universities don't have sports teams and still manage to operarte. Maybe the business grads from privite universities are better at money managment than at public universities. And just maybe the same can be said for there engineering grads. And maybe that's why public universities don't advertise there grads sucesses and failures.
So maybe both sides of this debate are true. There maybe enough engineering grads, but not enough of quality.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
I understand your conjecture is well thought out. I am not disputing it.
It just discerns me that the universities are not making this more clear. Also, it seems the GTA has one of highest engineering job densities in Canada.
I wonder how much this varies by discipline. As I understand it, Chemical Engineering, although being one of the highest paid, has one of the lowest job prospects. I may be incorrect though.
John,
That is useful information. I know faculty at some of this uni's. Also, companies like Siemens are great for putting in the effort for this type of training.
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." L. da Vinci
- Gian
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
The university I went to for my Masters degree was a large state school. Their approach was more do all things for all people. Their placement rate is anecdotaly a lot lower.
Maybe the Canadians should attend technical U.S. universities and triple their placement rate.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
If I recall the Council of Ontario Universities study data correctly, the "placement rate" for engineering grads after two years is about 93-94% averaged over all Ontario universities, which was about the same for engineering grads as for the average university graduate from all programs- so much for the notion that eng grads are greatly more "employable" than others... The rate is just a little better than the nominal overall unemployment rate, which of course is a garbage statistic because it ignores those who have given up looking for work etc. All these stats mean is that a kid who graduates with student loans has to be doing SOMETHING after two years to keep body and soul together.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
That's the problem, members of the liers club are all over the place.
And another problem is the number of people who drop-out of engineering school, with student loans. Maybe some of them should have never been enrolled in the first place.
It seems to be a grab the money before they relize type of system (maybe that's another part of goverment that shoulden't be trusted).
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
As if the private universities and so-called, for-profit 'trade-schools' and colleges aren't doing their part in impoverishing a generation of students.
DISCLAIMER: Our middle son is an instructor at one of these for-profit schools, in this case 'Le Cordon Bleu College of Culinary Arts'. Note that I paid for his Bachelors Degree in Psychology that he got at Cal-State Fullerton but he paid for the culinary degree he got at the 'Culinary Institute of America at Greystone', although I did co-sign for his student loan, which he paid-off years ago (thank God).
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/steve-jobs-sent-chil...
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
However, the part where even if an employee of a competitor applies on their own initiative they won't be considered really disgusts me.
So much for 'do no evil'.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
It is also just bad for both companies to continue to snipe each others engineers. It's also good that we get orignal ideas from different companies that must compete in the marketplace.
It also means the movers and shakers must actually do something in order to move to the upper floor. I just hate big mouths that can't do anything get promoted.
Besides having two or more companies looking for the same type of engineers is a good way to look like a shortage when there isen't. A local shortage is not a national shortage. It just means the location dosen't attract that many engineers.
It may however depress wages in the local area, but as long as it is limited it isen't bad.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
Plus whose definition of bad apple?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
Bad apples, engineers that don't know there stuff, cheat, lie, steal, you know the type.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
There was actually a successful class action lawsuit against a San Francisco based culinary arts school recently based on the fact that they were cooking the books with their job placement statistics.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
Basicly ideas are transportable, company managment practicace is not. We don't buy much from company A because there sales methods make there sales people seem like A-------. We buy from company B because there company practice makes it easy to work with them.
In the case of two technology companies, a no call practice may make since because they may want there products to be different from each other. Unlike the industry I work in, where products that are simular become somewhat interchangable, so companies must compete on frendleness.
The other issue is when products are easyer to use in an industry where there is a shortage of qualified engineers, it allows more of the design to be completed by copy and paste, and less by special design.
By qualified I mean within there capability to properly design the application.
So apperent to me the so called shortage of engineers is the ability to contain costs of employment. And if there truly was a shortage of engineers, there would still be a few who could not find jobs for reasons other than there degree.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
http://money.msn.com/business-news/article.aspx?fe...
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
It should irritate most of us the more than double standards we have. And I believe it is intential to attempt to bring down the cost or what has to be paid to staff the needed engineers.
We see the same thing happening in the medical industry. The goverment is coluding to reduce the cost of medical care by compressing pay of doctors.
It almost looks like some socialest plot. Even more when you see a number of mismanged things that are reducing food production in this country. And enviromental laws that restrict energy production, or use.
Makes you wonder if something political is happening, like a fundumental change in our goverment.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
Man Socialism really must mean something here in the US than it did back in Blighty.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
While there has been research over the years into what has been happening...
http://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu/articles/235...
...and while it seems pretty obvious to most people once they know the facts, what with the aforementioned recent Supreme Court rulings, if you honestly think that anything is going to be done about this, by Congress or even in the courts, you've got another think coming.
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
JohnRBaker, yes, oligarchy is the proper term. The authors of the paper conclude:
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
rconnor, I think it is called fascist, because socialist is goverment(everyone owns)everything, where fascist is goverment controls everything without owning it.
Either way the goverment is so large they believe they can trample on the peoples rights without recourse. And worse, they have so many laws they can selectively prosecute people which ever laws the goverment sees fit. Example: prosecute a rancher in Nevada, but not the millions of illegals that are in this country (and the money the hugh display of force).
If I was a better lier I would be in politics myself. That's apperently where the money is.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
rconner
Well the NAZI's were technically National Socialists, Mussolini's bunch were the actual fascists.
They probably actually mean some variation on Authoritarian or Totalitarian or some such but that's' probably too nuanced for many in the target audience where as saying Fascist invokes comparisons with WW II era Germany and it's leader - even if technically incorrect.
(By the way my last line should have been "Man Socialism really must mean something different here in the US than it did back in Blighty." but I think you got my point.)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
I believe that "plutocracy" would be the proper pejorative. The same thing as the golden rule: "he who has the gold makes the rule". Scatocracy might be a more fitting term for government by lawyers.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
Hitler also started by soap-boxing in the streets to who ever would lissen.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
Urgross, the two are similar however I feel that a plutocracy is more of direct leadership “by and for the few” whereas in an oligarchy it is more indirect through influence and pressure where the “by” is irrelevant as external influences/systemic issues will always make it “for the few”. But ya, it’s splitting hairs. I really like Lawrence Lessig’s Republic Lost on the matter (here’s a talk). The issue isn’t that the government is too large or too small but that the system has been twisted to represent the needs and wants of campaign contributors, not the people at large. The paper I linked before does a great job quantifying this issue.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
Term limits would also help reduce the incumbent advantage. Makem run for a different office.
Here's an idea. Since we seem to be short of govermental leadership, maybe we should allow H1b visas for political leaders from other countries to fill the void. We can just say they were boarn in Hawaii as that state seems to have a problem with finding it's records of births in the state.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
And sometimes it's just good to have fresh ideas.
One thing out of our founding is that only the richest people were allowed to vote, and that maybe because the poor, and free-loaders will vote themselves money every time.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
I suspect term limits are at best a 'band aid' of potentially dubious effectiveness.
As to your comment about not allowing the poor to vote, well it's not like the rich have ever voted or supported a political cause that benefits them at the expense of others right?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
"At least professionals don't deify the rich since they know exactly how wealth is obtained, not like the sheep who watch Faux News and consistently vote against their own self-interests." -JRB
I am from a Po-dunk Town in NYS. I have vary large family, most of which vote based on what Stains Music, aka Faux News, tells them. Typically it is against there best interest, but because they are afraid of the internet (because Stains Music has made them), and doing even a little research into whats going on, they would realize they are only screwing themselves.
Easter Dinner conversation include, reduce school standards, reduce taxes, reduce EPA standards, No-increase in min wage, ETC. Most of my family makes <50K a year and all of these things will lower there quality of life. Fortunately the SafeACT has no effect on my family.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
The number of swing districts diminish every year.
The number of landslide districts increase every year.
Outgoing politicians can just rearrange districts to assure a sympathetic colleague will take their place.
A secondary result is an divergence towards extremism in candidates. A given party is guaranteed a win in their district. So the only threat comes from within the party. So you need to out crazy your own guys. Being moderate and compromising with "the other party" is just an invitation to lose your own primary.
Term limits are a nice red herring. Fix the mathematics of the election system and you fix incumbent advantage and a crap load of other problems as well.
It's in vogue to pin it all on an ignorant populace. What with their xbockses and their cellphones and their jello pudding snacks.
It's really the contrary... citizens are making logical and informed voting choices...but...
Strategic voting (again, a mathematical result of FPTP voting) means the most reasonable and logical candidate to vote for is usually NOT the candidate that best represents a voter's actual beliefs.
Most voters end up voting "against" someone, rather than "for" someone.
Worse, actually voting for the guy you "really want" is detrimentally to the aforementioned "selfinterest" as it is very likely to result in a victory for the guy you "really don't want in a million years".
So it follows that to protect their self-interests, a voter must paradoxically vote for someone who they probably don't want, less they get the guy they DEFINITELY don't want.
Our founders were by and large rich.
Arguably the American revolution was precipitated by business. Our founders did not think they were getting a fair deal from the crown re: export of their products, taxes, etc.
They weren't terribly interested in "freedom" and "inequality" beyond "freedom to run our businesses". All other considerations were secondary or non-existent.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local-education/stem-...
Maui
www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
The fact is most people are disenfrangised with the political system, and will vote for the name that most matches there favrite beverage, if they vote at all.
I'm guilty of some of that. I don't have kids in public schools, so I would likely vote for who ever runs on lowering property taxes. But that person will never win because they are seen as uncareing.
For senitor or congressman, it also dosen't matter, as the same party always wins. About the only issues that I really vote on is the next bond issue. But if it fails it will only reappear in the next election.
So it is understandable that there is such a low voting turnout.
As far as engineers with a new perspective, they want the latest and greatest, without knowing how to apply them.
Safer to say, we need both perspectives, old and young.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
I followed the paper trail to find their definition of STEM. It seams it all depends on what Employers think a STEM job is and report to the Bureau of Labor.
I also found this.
http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2011/05/art1full.pdf
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
Maui
www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
What's Your Major? 4 Decades Of College Degrees, In 1 Graph
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
I also wonder how many of the degrees early on were "Mrs" degrees... That was always the joke about a large fraction of education majors when I was in school.
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage
RE: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage