Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
(OP)
Some days I just want to scream. I so sick companies giving engineer titles to people that don't even have a engineering degree or there last job was 5 years at Wal-Mart and you have to deal with their incompetence of not knowing the basis of their job
For example:
As a mechanical engineer, I have to deal with a small army of people that are so-called "configuration engineer" but none of them have any sort of engineering back ground and this is their first gig in high tech. Some of these so called "engineers" last jobs where school bus driver, grocery store clerk, store manager. They all have no concept of what an engineering BOM or assembly drawing is and they make a disaster of the engineering documentation. I asked one of them what experience they have with ANSI ASME and their response was.. "what's that?" I MEAN COME ON!!
It got so bad, that I have to tell my manager, that unless CE follow my lead on proper documentation practices I'll given them nothing.
I've worked with some old timers ( 1-2 in my life) they didn't have the engineering title, but came from machine shops, but they really knew their stuff
For example:
As a mechanical engineer, I have to deal with a small army of people that are so-called "configuration engineer" but none of them have any sort of engineering back ground and this is their first gig in high tech. Some of these so called "engineers" last jobs where school bus driver, grocery store clerk, store manager. They all have no concept of what an engineering BOM or assembly drawing is and they make a disaster of the engineering documentation. I asked one of them what experience they have with ANSI ASME and their response was.. "what's that?" I MEAN COME ON!!
It got so bad, that I have to tell my manager, that unless CE follow my lead on proper documentation practices I'll given them nothing.
I've worked with some old timers ( 1-2 in my life) they didn't have the engineering title, but came from machine shops, but they really knew their stuff





RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
I've worked with degreed engineers who couldn't engineer their way out of a wet paper bag, don't have a practical bone in their bodies, and are a menace to their clients and co-workers. I've worked with tradesmen whose knowledge and instincts are worth more than an acre of calculations in terms of delivering a safe and functional solution to a problem. The good ones, of both types, approach their work with a sober understanding of who gets hurt if something goes wrong, and with the humility to understand the limits of their knowledge and skill. A degree isn't knowledge and it sure as hell isn't experience- it's a proxy at best. But it does ensure some exposure to fundamentals that are important to engineering practice, generally when the person's mind was young and supple enough to absorb some of it.
The challenge is: how do you deal with people whose confidence extends beyond their competence? If they don't have a degree, do they appreciate just how much they don't know about the fundamentals, that even thirty years of experience is unlikely to teach them? That's a tough one. Who are you helping by incompletely teaching folks who are missing big chunks of the fundamentals? Are you helping your employer by doing that? Is such an employer worth working for? They're likely not going to enjoy your criticism of their very economical hires...
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
by the way, the vast majority of engineers do not work with engines or locomotives.
According to Wikipedia which is the definitive reference: The word engineer is derived from the Latin roots ingeniare ("to contrive, devise") and ingenium ("cleverness").
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
You are right about the Latin derivation but I am perfectly aware of the fact that most engineers do not work with engines or locomotives. I was merely implying that I am not so possessive of the designation "engineer" because as a structural engineer, I have little working experience with actual engines, and if a building engineer meaning maintenance person wants that as his/her title I have no beef with that.
I agree about the legality of offering services, etc, etc, but there is a huge difference between a non-licensed yahoo claiming to be a Structural or Mechanical Engineer and the building engineer - I don't believe the building engineer is guilty of law-breaking or dishonesty.
The thing you really should worry about are non-degreed technicians/ACAD jocks who are employed by certain companies to input data to engineering analysis programs that are intended to be used by degreed engineers that have the academic background to apply judgement regarding the proper input or interpretation of the results. Structural analysis programs are increasingly sophisticated to import data directly from ACAD and IMO this is a very dangerous trend.
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
OP is not talking about upwardly-mobile tradesmen. It is obvious that this situation is different, with "engineers" how are not competent enough to exercise "understanding of who gets hurt if something goes wrong, and with the humility to understand the limits of their knowledge and skill."
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
So thinking that requiring these folks to have an engineering degree will fix this is idiotic since it isn't part of the curriculum at most places of Engineering study that I know about/have heard of.
From your post it sounds like the problem is with the people hiring and supervising these "configuration engineers" more so than with the people themselves.
Based on the limited job description you imply then I'm not convinced having an engineering degree is necessarily required for them to do their actual job (ignoring use of the hallowed word 'Engineer' in the job title for now). Previous experience would probably be preferable but failing that, does your company give them any training - or at least access to some of the relevant standards & books on the subject and give them time to educate themselves?
While Moltenmetals post may have been slightly off topic WRT the specific issues, it's entirely on topic to the apparent sense of superiority Londonderry is proclaiming in his thread title/first paragraph.
My views on protection of the word 'engineer' are fairly well documented elsewhere and I'm not sure there's much point opening that can of worms again. As to "or there last job was 5 years at Wal-Mart", technically my last job was as a cashier/trainee supervisor at RiteAid for 9 months - perhaps that disqualifies me from responding to this thread.
(Londonderry I don't mean to be offensive, based on your previous postings you don't come across as an a$$, I'm guessing you've just had it up to the proverbial on this issue and are venting your frustration.)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
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RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
I do work with a number of degreed and non-degreed people, and the degreed people don't always have the training for the specility we require. So we train them.
The non-degreed people have a title of field-engineer, mainly for public trust that they do know something. And they do. But there work is reviewed by a degreed engineer in another department.
The title in our case is for field engineers is for public trust (some how the term linemen dosen't envoke public trust, although all of our linemen are trained very well).
A little different is that electrical engineers are rarely trained with any knoledge of power systems (everything is computers). But they have the basis for learning the power industry.
Everybody should know that new grads need to be trained. That an engineering degree does not imply complete knoledge of the subject.
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
Pick your battles. Don't get frustrated. Just figure out how to be a better Engineer yourself and leave the posers in the dust. Eventually someone will notice.
Experience: accumulated knowledge over time.
Talent: the ability to use experience.
Which is more valuable?
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
Help train them, and they will be easier to deal with. The time you spend threatening your manager would be better spent training others that you work with. Be consistent and be patient. If you want things to change then you do not have the option of saying "it's been a long day and this is the best I will get out of them, so I might as well just begrudgingly accept it." If you don't have the time or the discipline for that, then you're never going to fit in there. Improve what you can, don't be rude to anybody, and start interviewing.
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
If a company is hiring former bus drivers and grocery store clerks for true engineering-related positions, they get what they deserve in the final product. Not much left to discuss once you hit that point.
Enginerd, thank you for the Holy Grail/Spamalot reference.
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
Omniscience is a terrible burden and I have enough to do already.
Charlie
www.facsco.com
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
Experience: accumulated knowledge over time.
Talent: the ability to use experience.
Which is more valuable?
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
It turned out that not only was he not politically correct but had never performed open heart surgery in his life. I was so angry I nearly said a rude word in a slightly raised voice.
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
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RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
I've also learned more about machine design from a "lathe operator" than from school and first employer combined.
titles really aren't important, people are.
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
But at the same time, it's pretty obvious to most that someone who is a "mechanical engineer" versus "configuration engineer" is discussing one thing versus another. I guess that's a good reason to go for the PE designation...there is no mixing what their qualifications are.
PE, SE
Eastern United States
"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
As I said above, the degree dosen't mean knoledge, but it may mean trainable.
But also remember the Peter princible happens in managment.
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
My original post was dealing with people that have positions that they are in over there head. Just because I have a degree in one area doesn't qualify me to preform medical surgery.
Typical workflow in most companies is something is designed, the released through an ECO then purchased or manufactured, then delivered to customer.
At my company, I've been at for the past 6 months, things breakdown after the design phase and we can't ship products. I'll design something,write an ECO pass it to the config. engineers (CE) and they don't understand what to do, even after countless meetings and hand holding/ training. So myself and the config manager (CM), who is also new, have take on the CE job rolls because if not it never gets released. Afterwards we pass that to chain supply for ordering and then we get phone calls from the vendor, because chain supply just sends out assembly drawings and no BOM's or detail drawing but expect the vendors to quote on fabing parts. Again after countless meetings with chain supply on what to do myself and CM have to take on their rolls. In the meantime we have program manager's wanting to know what the delays are, which we have to answer for. For example I designed a product back in Sept 2013 and it sat for months while I thought it was release and even today supply chain hasn't placed order because they're lost on what to do and the program manager is fuming. Its so bad the CM wants to let the CE and supply chain people let go but can because he's new and his boss will not allow it.
So I apologize for my rant, I'm not personally attacking none degreed people.
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
Our purchasing people maybe good at purchasing wire, but they struggle with custom equipment and services. Youd think they know the difference between a civil work company, and an electrical work company, but they struggle.
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
One approach we've used is to create a single zip file or similar for each assembly which has all the required documentation in it.
Trouble is ensuring this gets kept up to date.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
And I do not follow ASME Document standards, cannot state if i know/follow them. I draft what makes my intent the clearest and move on with myself. I like to spend my time tormenting interns and making contractors over build everything!
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
You bring up the term domestic engineer, I believe the term was shelved when the heating and domestic engineers union merged with the Draughtsman's and allied technicians union, before they too were absorbed by Unite .
God knows what they are called now.
B.E.
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
I believe the term Domestic Engineer is still in use, however I would recommend caution using it
http://www.ask.com/question/what-is-a-domestic-eng...
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
Well that is a little different from my understanding of the title. My understanding was, that a domestic engineer was a person who worked on the fringe of the plumbing and pipe fitting community, fixing hot air furnaces, boilers, and water heaters. Not to be confused with plumbers who were eager to grab the same title.
B.E.
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
As far as I know in the US pretty much anyone can call themselves an engineer. There is no law against it. The only thing that might stop someone is to do certain things they need to be a licensed engineer. Hence the PE behind some peoples name
Ironically because I came from the IT field I can call myself an engineer because of certifications I got through companies like Microsoft and HP. Also I have a degree in Network Engineering
One reason why companies call non-degreed people engineers is billing. If you look at the rates they go up as the title gets more and more professional. For instance Bill might be able to do the work of a senior design engineer but does not have a degree. Do you think a company would not want to have him billed out at the higher rate
Future PE Engineer
Pet project I am working on to help other engineers, not much yet hoping to get it grow as I learn more
http://www.peexamquestions.com
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
Your example does not explicitly exclude the title "engineer". If someone claims to be "licensed to practice engineering" or they adopt the title "professional engineer", you have them. I see the phrases "qualified to practice" and "certified or registered". This sort of language ought to stand up in court, although I am not a lawyer. I am sure we all know what a sanitation engineer is.
There is not much you can do about train engineers, stationary engineers, domestic engineers and engineering managers. That horse left barn a very long time ago.
--
JHG
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
Someone who calls himself a building engineer (he is the building maintenance person) is not in violation.
Someone claiming to be a Structural Engineer and he is not (example-student or Civil Engineer) IS in violation.
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
I have always called myself a Structural Engineer but do not use SE behind my name because I am not registered as such.
In fact when I took the PE in Minn., I had to interview board members prior to being approved to take the PE exam. At that time I had to declare my discipline (Civil, Mechanical, Electrical, ???) and my specialty (structural, transportation, environmental, etc.) to the board. You were then reminded that you were not supposed to work outside of your field of expertise. The afternoon portion of the exam was such that you could choose to work in your specialized field.
I realize that many of the western states and Illinois have always had the SE specialized requirements, and now the SE exam is being nationalized.
When I worked in MN, our boss, a Civil PE, was able to get reciprocity in CA for our structural work on mining and mineral processing buildings associated with one of our projects there. Certain classification of buildings were exempt from the SE requirements.
gjc
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
Hopefully a lot of us will be "grandfathered" in when it happens.
gjc
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
All along I had zero, absolutely zero, knowledge of any actual real-life civil engineering. After a few years I also forgot everything civil I learned in University, all that pipe network stuff and hydraulic jumps and channel flow.
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
A Civil Engineer PE can design low-rise, low seismic structural projects in states that have a Structural Engineer classification.
If he announces that he is the Structural Engineer for the High School structure he designed, then that is correct and legal. After all, he wasn't the Civil Engineer for that project, who is likely to be an entirely different design team.