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Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!
4

Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

(OP)
Some days I just want to scream.  I so sick companies giving engineer titles to people that don't even have a engineering degree or there last job was 5 years at Wal-Mart and you have to deal with their incompetence of not knowing the basis of their job
For example:
As a mechanical engineer, I have to deal with a small army of people that are so-called "configuration engineer" but none of them have any sort of engineering back ground and this is their first gig in high tech.  Some of these so called "engineers" last jobs where school bus driver, grocery store clerk, store manager.  They all have no concept of what an engineering BOM or assembly drawing is and they make a disaster of the engineering documentation.  I asked one of them what experience they have with ANSI ASME and their response was.. "what's that?" I MEAN COME ON!!
It got so bad, that I have to tell my manager, that unless CE follow my lead on proper documentation practices I'll given them nothing.  

I've worked with some old timers ( 1-2 in my life) they didn't have the engineering title, but came from machine shops, but they really knew their stuff
 

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

3
Wow: no offense intended, but perhaps you'd get more respect from these colleagues if you put a little more effort into your written communications?

I've worked with degreed engineers who couldn't engineer their way out of a wet paper bag, don't have a practical bone in their bodies, and are a menace to their clients and co-workers. I've worked with tradesmen whose knowledge and instincts are worth more than an acre of calculations in terms of delivering a safe and functional solution to a problem. The good ones, of both types, approach their work with a sober understanding of who gets hurt if something goes wrong, and with the humility to understand the limits of their knowledge and skill. A degree isn't knowledge and it sure as hell isn't experience- it's a proxy at best. But it does ensure some exposure to fundamentals that are important to engineering practice, generally when the person's mind was young and supple enough to absorb some of it.

The challenge is: how do you deal with people whose confidence extends beyond their competence? If they don't have a degree, do they appreciate just how much they don't know about the fundamentals, that even thirty years of experience is unlikely to teach them? That's a tough one. Who are you helping by incompletely teaching folks who are missing big chunks of the fundamentals? Are you helping your employer by doing that? Is such an employer worth working for? They're likely not going to enjoy your criticism of their very economical hires...

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

I don't mind non-degreed people being called engineer because I believe the original meaning of the word related to train engineer, and obviously the word implies someone who works with engines, be it railroad, automotive, etc.

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

in the US, if you offer services to the public, it is illegal to call yourself an engineer if you are not licensed. so I would not recommend that title for an un-licensed technician. they should be happy being called designers.

by the way, the vast majority of engineers do not work with engines or locomotives.

According to Wikipedia which is the definitive reference: The word engineer is derived from the Latin roots ingeniare ("to contrive, devise") and ingenium ("cleverness").

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

cvg

You are right about the Latin derivation but I am perfectly aware of the fact that most engineers do not work with engines or locomotives. I was merely implying that I am not so possessive of the designation "engineer" because as a structural engineer, I have little working experience with actual engines, and if a building engineer meaning maintenance person wants that as his/her title I have no beef with that.

I agree about the legality of offering services, etc, etc, but there is a huge difference between a non-licensed yahoo claiming to be a Structural or Mechanical Engineer and the building engineer - I don't believe the building engineer is guilty of law-breaking or dishonesty.

The thing you really should worry about are non-degreed technicians/ACAD jocks who are employed by certain companies to input data to engineering analysis programs that are intended to be used by degreed engineers that have the academic background to apply judgement regarding the proper input or interpretation of the results. Structural analysis programs are increasingly sophisticated to import data directly from ACAD and IMO this is a very dangerous trend.

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

I think moltenmetal is off base. Didn't really read the OP that deeply, I think.

OP is not talking about upwardly-mobile tradesmen. It is obvious that this situation is different, with "engineers" how are not competent enough to exercise "understanding of who gets hurt if something goes wrong, and with the humility to understand the limits of their knowledge and skill."

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

Well I've worked with (and am currently working with) lots of degreed (Associates thru Doctorate some with PE/CEng) Engineers that didn't/don't have the foggiest about ASME drawing standards, configuration control or anything remotely related.

So thinking that requiring these folks to have an engineering degree will fix this is idiotic since it isn't part of the curriculum at most places of Engineering study that I know about/have heard of.

From your post it sounds like the problem is with the people hiring and supervising these "configuration engineers" more so than with the people themselves.

Based on the limited job description you imply then I'm not convinced having an engineering degree is necessarily required for them to do their actual job (ignoring use of the hallowed word 'Engineer' in the job title for now). Previous experience would probably be preferable but failing that, does your company give them any training - or at least access to some of the relevant standards & books on the subject and give them time to educate themselves?

While Moltenmetals post may have been slightly off topic WRT the specific issues, it's entirely on topic to the apparent sense of superiority Londonderry is proclaiming in his thread title/first paragraph.

My views on protection of the word 'engineer' are fairly well documented elsewhere and I'm not sure there's much point opening that can of worms again. As to "or there last job was 5 years at Wal-Mart", technically my last job was as a cashier/trainee supervisor at RiteAid for 9 months - perhaps that disqualifies me from responding to this thread.

(Londonderry I don't mean to be offensive, based on your previous postings you don't come across as an a$$, I'm guessing you've just had it up to the proverbial on this issue and are venting your frustration.)

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

Of course, if you never do anything to improve their knowledge and expertise, then you become part of the problem. Put your energies into training these hapless souls so that they become the productive employees they should be.

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

While it is true that a degree dosen't ensure knoledge, it does imply the ability to learn (something).

I do work with a number of degreed and non-degreed people, and the degreed people don't always have the training for the specility we require. So we train them.
The non-degreed people have a title of field-engineer, mainly for public trust that they do know something. And they do. But there work is reviewed by a degreed engineer in another department.
The title in our case is for field engineers is for public trust (some how the term linemen dosen't envoke public trust, although all of our linemen are trained very well).

A little different is that electrical engineers are rarely trained with any knoledge of power systems (everything is computers). But they have the basis for learning the power industry.

Everybody should know that new grads need to be trained. That an engineering degree does not imply complete knoledge of the subject.

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

The title "Sales Engineer" really annoys me for no rational reasons. I understand the frustrations from the OP, but really I think there are more important problems to solve. Someone mentioned my other point already about skill / talent not being derived from a title... as in, you don't suddenly get imbued with skill / talent / experience / sense just because some watery tart through a sword at you.

Pick your battles. Don't get frustrated. Just figure out how to be a better Engineer yourself and leave the posers in the dust. Eventually someone will notice.

Experience: accumulated knowledge over time.

Talent: the ability to use experience.

Which is more valuable?

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

Well there was no question in the original post, and it seems like the title probably should have been "complaining about..." rather than "dealing with..."

Help train them, and they will be easier to deal with. The time you spend threatening your manager would be better spent training others that you work with. Be consistent and be patient. If you want things to change then you do not have the option of saying "it's been a long day and this is the best I will get out of them, so I might as well just begrudgingly accept it." If you don't have the time or the discipline for that, then you're never going to fit in there. Improve what you can, don't be rude to anybody, and start interviewing.

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

Quote (cvg)

According to Wikipedia which is the definitive reference:
Got a chuckle out of that one...


If a company is hiring former bus drivers and grocery store clerks for true engineering-related positions, they get what they deserve in the final product. Not much left to discuss once you hit that point.


Enginerd, thank you for the Holy Grail/Spamalot reference.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

I don't bother wasting energy fretting and getting upset about the other guy. I concentrate on myself. I do my best, learn my task and try to teach others when I can.

Omniscience is a terrible burden and I have enough to do already.

Charlie
www.facsco.com

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

MacGyver, glad you enjoyed that. I realize now my phone auto-corrected "threw" to "through" which irritates me slightly.

Experience: accumulated knowledge over time.

Talent: the ability to use experience.

Which is more valuable?

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

The other day I spoke to someone who advertised as a PC Doctor.

It turned out that not only was he not politically correct but had never performed open heart surgery in his life. I was so angry I nearly said a rude word in a slightly raised voice.

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

In this day and age, people misusing "Doctor" is hardly new; I've dealt with a Lock Doctor, who was a mobile locksmith and saved me from having to break a window. There's a spectrum the respectful reverence that might be like Germany, and willful disrespect and mocking that's typical of America. But, any institution that engenders that level of distance potentially prevents the scrutiny required to root out malfeasance, as demonstrated by the rampant match fixing in sumo wrestling.

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

I've thrown out a maintenance engineer because he "did the calcs" and wanted to buy M9 bolts.
I've also learned more about machine design from a "lathe operator" than from school and first employer combined.

titles really aren't important, people are.

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

I get the frustration. I once met someone that was a "business development engineer". Their position was nothing related to anything engineering...but engineer sounded cooler than manager, I guess.

But at the same time, it's pretty obvious to most that someone who is a "mechanical engineer" versus "configuration engineer" is discussing one thing versus another. I guess that's a good reason to go for the PE designation...there is no mixing what their qualifications are.

PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

I worked one place where a hack designer was promoted to "engineering supervisor" just so they could put the word "engineering" in his title and give him more credibility. They also paid for everyone to have SAE memberships and put "SAE" after our names on the biz cards.

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

When you say "SAE" I sort of think of motor oil. It's been sort of watered down from what they are all about.

As I said above, the degree dosen't mean knoledge, but it may mean trainable.

But also remember the Peter princible happens in managment.

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

(OP)
Wow seems like this post might have gotten a bit out of hand. I'm not slamming anyone without a degree I've worked with many non-degreed people that where very good and I've worked with some Ph'D engineers that never seen a machine shop.
My original post was dealing with people that have positions that they are in over there head. Just because I have a degree in one area doesn't qualify me to preform medical surgery.

Typical workflow in most companies is something is designed, the released through an ECO then purchased or manufactured, then delivered to customer.
At my company, I've been at for the past 6 months, things breakdown after the design phase and we can't ship products. I'll design something,write an ECO pass it to the config. engineers (CE) and they don't understand what to do, even after countless meetings and hand holding/ training. So myself and the config manager (CM), who is also new, have take on the CE job rolls because if not it never gets released. Afterwards we pass that to chain supply for ordering and then we get phone calls from the vendor, because chain supply just sends out assembly drawings and no BOM's or detail drawing but expect the vendors to quote on fabing parts. Again after countless meetings with chain supply on what to do myself and CM have to take on their rolls. In the meantime we have program manager's wanting to know what the delays are, which we have to answer for. For example I designed a product back in Sept 2013 and it sat for months while I thought it was release and even today supply chain hasn't placed order because they're lost on what to do and the program manager is fuming. Its so bad the CM wants to let the CE and supply chain people let go but can because he's new and his boss will not allow it.

So I apologize for my rant, I'm not personally attacking none degreed people.

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

Every company has some level of dis-orgization.

Our purchasing people maybe good at purchasing wire, but they struggle with custom equipment and services. Youd think they know the difference between a civil work company, and an electrical work company, but they struggle.

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

LONDONDERRY - we've had similar issues with outsourcing 'assemblies'.

One approach we've used is to create a single zip file or similar for each assembly which has all the required documentation in it.

Trouble is ensuring this gets kept up to date.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

I've noticed the non-degreed cohort can be pretty thin-skinned on this issue. Hard knocks diploma not printed on cowhide.

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

I've brought this up before, but one of the most talented engineers I've worked with was a degree-less ex air traffic controller.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

How has nobody brought up the term Domestic Engineer yet? I agree that the term Engineer is being used everywhere and that may make people feel less special but it is my understanding that this has been the case for hundreds of years. I recall some letters from a US Engineer in the 1800's who voiced feeling concerned that the 'Professionals' of Lawyers viewed him as a blue collar contractor since he worked with them and he felt he should be viewed as a higher member of society. In the end, the individual matters more than a title.

And I do not follow ASME Document standards, cannot state if i know/follow them. I draft what makes my intent the clearest and move on with myself. I like to spend my time tormenting interns and making contractors over build everything!

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

EngineeringEric (Structural)
You bring up the term domestic engineer, I believe the term was shelved when the heating and domestic engineers union merged with the Draughtsman's and allied technicians union, before they too were absorbed by Unite .
God knows what they are called now.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

CVG,
Well that is a little different from my understanding of the title. My understanding was, that a domestic engineer was a person who worked on the fringe of the plumbing and pipe fitting community, fixing hot air furnaces, boilers, and water heaters. Not to be confused with plumbers who were eager to grab the same title.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

I actually was referring to a predominate stay at home parent... but the other ones are new options to me.

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

I was going to start a field called Procrastination Engineering, but I heard it was a waste of time

As far as I know in the US pretty much anyone can call themselves an engineer. There is no law against it. The only thing that might stop someone is to do certain things they need to be a licensed engineer. Hence the PE behind some peoples name
Ironically because I came from the IT field I can call myself an engineer because of certifications I got through companies like Microsoft and HP. Also I have a degree in Network Engineering

One reason why companies call non-degreed people engineers is billing. If you look at the rates they go up as the title gets more and more professional. For instance Bill might be able to do the work of a senior design engineer but does not have a degree. Do you think a company would not want to have him billed out at the higher rate

Future PE Engineer
Pet project I am working on to help other engineers, not much yet hoping to get it grow as I learn more
http://www.peexamquestions.com

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

at least according to local laws, I believe it is illegal to call yourself an engineer if you aren't one. I believe calling yourself an engineer or advertising that fact is the same as implying that you are qualified to be one.


Quote:

32-145. Violations; classification
Any person who commits any of the following acts is guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor:
1. Practices, offers to practice or by any implication holds himself out as qualified to practice any board regulated profession or occupation if the person is not registered or certified as provided by this chapter.
2. Advertises or displays any card, sign or other device that may indicate to the public that the person is certified or registered or is qualified to practice any board regulated profession or occupation if the person is not certified or registered as provided by this chapter.

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

cvg,

Your example does not explicitly exclude the title "engineer". If someone claims to be "licensed to practice engineering" or they adopt the title "professional engineer", you have them. I see the phrases "qualified to practice" and "certified or registered". This sort of language ought to stand up in court, although I am not a lawyer. I am sure we all know what a sanitation engineer is.

There is not much you can do about train engineers, stationary engineers, domestic engineers and engineering managers. That horse left barn a very long time ago.

--
JHG

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

Don't forget the "stationery engineers"- the ones whose only product is paper...

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

"at least according to local laws, I believe it is illegal to call yourself an engineer if you aren't one. I believe calling yourself an engineer or advertising that fact is the same as implying that you are qualified to be one. "



Someone who calls himself a building engineer (he is the building maintenance person) is not in violation.

Someone claiming to be a Structural Engineer and he is not (example-student or Civil Engineer) IS in violation.

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

I am a Civil Engineer who majored in the structural option. All but one of my elective courses at the BS level and 9 of 11 classes in my MS degree were structural engineering courses. The one BS elective as an advanced soils class that was relevant to foundation design.

I have always called myself a Structural Engineer but do not use SE behind my name because I am not registered as such.

In fact when I took the PE in Minn., I had to interview board members prior to being approved to take the PE exam. At that time I had to declare my discipline (Civil, Mechanical, Electrical, ???) and my specialty (structural, transportation, environmental, etc.) to the board. You were then reminded that you were not supposed to work outside of your field of expertise. The afternoon portion of the exam was such that you could choose to work in your specialized field.

I realize that many of the western states and Illinois have always had the SE specialized requirements, and now the SE exam is being nationalized.

When I worked in MN, our boss, a Civil PE, was able to get reciprocity in CA for our structural work on mining and mineral processing buildings associated with one of our projects there. Certain classification of buildings were exempt from the SE requirements.

gjc

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

mtu, in your state, is there a Structural PE classification, or can CE's with declared structural intent (such as in NM) perform high-rise and seismic calculations with a Civil PE stamp?

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

No SE classification as of yet in WI, but with the new national test it may well be coming. I've never worked on anything greater than 90' tall industrial buildings here.

Hopefully a lot of us will be "grandfathered" in when it happens.

gjc

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

I was first registered in NM, and there was no SE classification there. So my CE stamp was good for high-rise. I recall doing all ther structural problems on the test but then had to do one or 2 something of another dicispline...so I picked Geotechnical.

All along I had zero, absolutely zero, knowledge of any actual real-life civil engineering. After a few years I also forgot everything civil I learned in University, all that pipe network stuff and hydraulic jumps and channel flow.

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

I call myself a hydrologist since that's the majority of what I do, but I'm not registered as a hydrologist, I'm registered as a PE. Hope that doesn't anger any hydrologists.. :)

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree!

Just to beat this topic to death a bit more,

A Civil Engineer PE can design low-rise, low seismic structural projects in states that have a Structural Engineer classification.

If he announces that he is the Structural Engineer for the High School structure he designed, then that is correct and legal. After all, he wasn't the Civil Engineer for that project, who is likely to be an entirely different design team.

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