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Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

(OP)
Morning All,

I am looking to use a steel beam in a residential application. Trying to open up basement, but I am not too familiar with construction techniques to be able to specify the connections. ANy good references that might point me in the right direction?

I am a NY PE, not a home owner. I can probably brute force method design a beam, column, and footers, but any quick tips or references will be much appreciated.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

The beam and column design should be to the AISC Steel Construction Manual (14th Edition is current, previous may be acceptable). This reference covers connections to other steel members as well.

The footer sizing will be controlled by the soil conditions. Design of concrete items will be dictated by ACI 318 (2011 Edition is current, previous may be acceptable).

I highly recommend seeking the services of a competent structural engineer in your area. If you are able to do some of the work yourself (drawing preparation, e.g.) the cost should be quite reasonable.

Also remember that residential contractors are allergic to steel.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

(OP)
Yes, residential contractors hat the steel I-beam idea.

I am competent in the design of the beam and column, but the connections allude me. Never asked to do steel in residential construction.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

Apexpredetor - you've posted here several times asking for "quick tips" to design basic structures for others (apparently).

If you don't know how to competently design something as basic as a steel beam in a residence, then the best thing would be to hire a structural engineer or take classes in this subject.
Teaching basic engineering principles isn't the focus of this website.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

Steel and wood framed residences generally do not mix we3ll, with cracking and differential settlement occurring over time.

More critical in green rather than seasoned lumber though.

The connections used de3pend on the situation you have. As JAE said, have a local structural take a look at your situation and give you come recommendations. Book pictures will not work in all cases.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

(OP)
Not quick tips. I am trying to move away from brute force method of designing from scratch, and try to use more prescriptive methods if available.

Yes, I am a younger engineer with my PE. I am asked all of the time to do small project for people that I typically turn down, but that does not mean that I am not interested in how they are accomplished? I am sorry if you see my inquiries here as a means to a quick answer! That is not the case. We all progress as engineers by continued education, right? IF not self learning on topics you are interested in, how else do we learn. Did our engineering degrees not teach us how to learn on our own, or to be able to think critically? Because I don't do structural design 40hrs a week does not mean that I am not interested in the topic!

I try to form my questions so I don't get the standard "hire an engineer" answer. I am an engineer with a good understanding of the basics just looking for a point in the right direction to satisfy my curiosities. I have never once asked a question in the form of "...I have an XX length beam, XX width house, xx snow load, xx length opening, please tell me the answer..."

I am by no means an expert, and I am designing a structure for MY OWN RESIDENCE (garage attached possible basement under, floor above dreams ha ha) in my spare time.

I don't mean to offend or be nasty, but I'm not looking for somebody to give me any answers, just ideas, and direction.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

"Connections" ?

You've got a couple of problems - and, I'm not sure exactly where you are looking for help. What we did a few years ago was the following: Resedintial house, basement was about 25 feet across with 2x 3" pipe columns that the contractor wanted to open up into a single room. Apparently, similar to your situation. One wall of the basement was open to access from the side.

We cut a hole in that wall high enough and large enough to slide the beam directly in from the outside - don't have sizes, but I believe it was a W12 or W10 x ???, standard A36 grade. Obviously, YOU have to size it based on span and loads. We cut the beam to length outside the house (no flame-burning and clear grinding inside!). The existing pipe columns were left in place until the beam was slid into the basement, lifted up manually into final position, and on its final supports. We needed 6x people to lift, assume each can only lift 150 lbs over their head if on good supports or scaffolding. Otherwise, plan on several jacks underneath - obviously, you can't use any crane through the roof. The contractor did not want anything settleing, so he jacked up the old floor with temporary verticals very very slightly to get the load off of the old columns and to allow the new beam to move into place just slightly "above" its final elevation.

Once up against the floor joists, we supported the W10 beam at each end with 2x vertical columns that were end turn bolted against the existing basement walls (either brick or CME - I do not remember - and to their own floorplates on the old concrete. Once the new beam was in place and jacked up firmly against the old joists, (since the old joists were actually lifted a little bit ("un-sagged" may be a better word)), the 2x pipe columns were felt to be "loose" and could be simply pulled out since the temporary verticals were carrying the load of the floor above. With the new beam in place and secure at both ends, the temporary jacks were relaxed that little bit they had lifted the floor (1/16" perhaps) so the old joists were lowered and transferred their weight to the new beam.

We had two or three old joists that needed to be smoothed (sanded off) so they touched the new beam evenly with the rest: This is because the new beam was "perfectly flat and dead level" on top and the old wood was "not so perfectly flat" and "not so perfectly level" across its average bottom with these few being too low or slightly twisted by the old nails. 8<) The hand grinder we used to smooth the W10 beam was more than adequate to trim the 2x12 where required in only a few seconds. Old joists that were too high to touch the new beam were shimmed with wood shims firmly wedged in place.

I do not remember how the new columns were attached to the new beam. We are in a no-seismic zone. Anything that works in your case will be adequate.

The new end columns were covered by 2x4's and sheetrock panels to match the rest of the new basement's interior walls.

Remember to plan the holes in the basement walls for lifting the new beam up and sliding it in safely, and remember to get enough people in the right places to do that lifting safely.

if you can't get sideways access into the basement, I'm not sure how you can get the new beam into position. I most definitely don't recommend cutting it and re-splicing it by welding inside the basement unless you have a very, very skilled welder who can work in remote sites safely.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

(OP)
IT would actually be a new build with crane/telehandler access. We can pour footing as necessary, and design wall supports as necessary. We did something similar to what you described when I was a kid to an old home the family owned. Huge pain. Lots of people to lift, and tight spaces due to temp supports of joists, ect...

Thanks for the ideas and help. Appreciate it

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

Steel and Timber mixed is the standard form of construction in most serious cold weather climats, or at least was until the introduction of LVL and other "engineering" timbers.

You need a Structural Engineer's help. The added efficiency is going to pay for their modest fees. We are one of the cheapest of all Engineers. What's your time (and the risk of screwing up) worth to you?

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

Here in New Brunswick, Canada, almost every residential garage has a steel beam carrying the floor above, and probably 50% of the houses use steel beams in the basement, so all of our residential contractors are quite familiar with steel, they're not allergic at all.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

Apex, the connection depends on if you want the beam within the depth of the floor joists or not.

If you drop the beam below the joist: Typically a timber sill is bolted to the top flange of the beam and then the joist are toenailed into the top of the sill.

If you don't want a dropped beam: In my area two options are typically used...either pack the web of the beam with timber and thru-bolt the timber, then use face mount hangers for the joist. Or bolt a sill to the top of the beam and use top-mounted hangers for the joists.

Your connections will affect the beam design because that is where you're getting the support for the compression flange. For the flush beam option, Mike raises a good point...the joist will shrink and the steel will not, so make sure you leave the joists up higher than the steel or you'll be sanding down the hump in your floor when the wood shrinks.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

(OP)
CEL.. I'm in NY and I don't see many residential with Steel beams with the introduction of the LVL.

I appreciate the concern for hiring an engineer, but this is my own structure, and it won't be built for another year (most likely two), so I would like to gain as much knowledge and information about my intended materials before I actually go out to another engineer. In all likelihood I will use LVL, and wood I joists for my members. Being asked if I had ever considered a steel beam by a co-worker made me consider it.

Basically I am going to design the beam and footers using poured wall (or filled CMU's) at beam bearing on foundation walls.

I was most concerned about the length of members (thinking 40ft is max length, but weight will be killer at that length) and how to tie them together longitudinally if needed. Guess it comes down to a bearing plate strength issue at member joints since the joists provide the lateral support. Not sure if I will flush mount the joists on hangers or 2X on top of flange to provide nailing surface for joists.

I have pretty good soils, but I will go on the low end and assume 1500psf (clay) to be conservative with footer design. I don't mind using a little more material on my own house, especially in the foundation elements.

So I have taken care of the end bearing, footers, and beam sizing. I am still left with connections. I always hated detailing ha ha.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

(OP)
CANPRO. Didn't think about the shrinkage of the joist. Good call.

Hmmmm, what would be a decent offset? 1/8"? I have never thought of the amount the joist wil actually shrink.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

The most reliable detail for using steel is to sit a level field of timber joists on the bolted sill CANPRO mentioned, then carry the steel to foundations on jack-posts (adjustable telescoping steel columns). In this way you get a solution where the tendancy of the timber to shrink is irrelevant and the steel is not supported by timber (have seen some nasty results of that).

If you actually intend to use another engineer, just do your work by rules of thumb (like SPAN/20 to SPAN/25 for the size of your steel beam). If you are keen to do your own design, I'm sure people here would be happy to keep helping you...

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

(OP)
I will most likely be doing my own design because I really don't think that the steel will provide much in advantage and I will probably go with LVL and I joists, but I am now curious to the applications and designs of this scenario with steel beam.

I'm stumped on how to connect the beams longitudinally if the beams are not continuous members.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

This isn't really related to the OP but we frequently use steel beams when the second floor of a house is over a large clearspan garage and the front elevation of the second story is set back from the front of the garage, and those pesky conditions where a beam bears on the exterior wall, and the roof slope necessitates the top of the beam to taper down to practically nothing to match the roof sheathing. Those frequently don't work as LVL or glulam.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

I would use min. 1/4", but as CEL mentioned your best bet is to rest the joist on top of the steel (if you can live with the bulkhead) so that this is not an issue.

"I'm stumped on how to connect the beams longitudinally if the beams are not continuous members." <----- not sure I get your question. If the beam is designed as a single span member then you don't have to connect them longitudinally.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

As a caution, garage over a basement can be tricky, especially in CNY. In the past 2 months my firm has seen garage floor collapses due to deterioration of the slab from the deicing salts the car drags in. The reduced service life of the floor, and the expense of maintainence and repair, are something that would be better to avoid by just having it be a slab on grade.

There are publications on wood design that are free downloads (can't remember exact names) that discuss shrinkage potentials in dimensional lumber. I would think that installing a 2x nailer to the beam, along with using wood joists, you may not have any noticable differential shrinkage, but I could be wrong.

Getting an AISC code book would be a good place to start to get an idea on the connection types in steel.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

""I'm stumped on how to connect the beams longitudinally if the beams are not continuous members." <----- not sure I get your question. If the beam is designed as a single span member then you don't have to connect them longitudinally"



Isn't that simply 2 beams on rectangular column cap plate, and 2 bolts to each beam's bott flange (4 total)?

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

(OP)


When I say connecting them longitudinally I am referring to a long narrow type structure of greater than 40ft. I am thinking my structure will be approx 28ft x 48ft. I am thinking that I am not going to get a beam over 40ft in length (or get one shipped very cost effective) so I would have two beams each 24ft (not including the bearing on concrete length). Each end bearing on concrete foundation wall, but in the middle would be a discontinuity/break. This would not be a continuous beam member. I hope I explained this in enough detail.

SU10

I was thinking about the hollow core clear span modules for the floor over basement in the garage area. capped with HDPE, and 2-3" grout. Seems to protect the floors well if done correctly.

What was the construction type used in the garage floor failure you worked on? I am also in Upstate NY area.

Thanks again all.



RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

If you are placing hollow core planks from both sides to a steel beam make sure they are placed sequentially both sides instead of one side first, and the steel post is detailed with a base plate at least 12" square w/ 4-3/4" dia anchor bolts, hopefully the top of column is temporarily braced. Those planks have nasty habit of twisting the beam and there goes the column too.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

of course the mid-span is not the best structural place for a joint; it's not that it shouldn't happen, just that your joint is at the most highly loaded place on the beam.

persnally i'm confused by the history of this thread ...
first "I am a NY PE, not a home owner." then "I am designing a structure for MY OWN RESIDENCE" ?
suggestions to get formal training aren't replied to with "yes, i'm doing that as well"
"I am competent in the design of the beam and column, but the connections allude me. Never asked to do steel in residential construction." ... what's the problem with connections ? what's the problem with residential ? (look up the relevent code ??)
"I can probably brute force method design a beam, column, and footers" ... ? what do you mean "brute force" ? very conservative ?? what alternative are you looking for ?
"I am trying to move away from brute force method of designing from scratch" ?

i'd've thought that as a PE you'd be aware of moving out of your comfort zone (not a bad thing, if you're aware and careful), and in doing so you know to get help. This is probably not the best place to get that help; the first reply pointed you at a relevent code doc; i'd expect that you should support this by a bit of formal structural training (since as you admit it isn't you comfort zone) ... not necessarily college credits or CE credits, but there's got to be plenty of stuff online to help.

personally i'd worry about attaching a gagage to a house, presumably the gagage is a slab base and the house has a basement.

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

(OP)
Sorry to confuse. If I went with the hollow core they would be clear span modules. I was just responding to SU10's comment on the concrete floor

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

The steel manual will walk you thru your design pretty efficiently. As a PE Im sure you know a couple structures guys that would look over your calcs, so you can feel comfortable sealing for the permit. Hell, someone on here might do it for you through private messages.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

(OP)
Sorry for the confusion...

1) "I am a NY PE, not a home owner." then "I am designing a structure for MY OWN RESIDENCE" ? I typically mention that I am a PE, not just a homeowner looking for a quick answer on here. I say this to let any potential responder know that they should not shy from talking engineering speak. I come here to get direction on where to look to start learning and figuring out the answer to my question, not to get the answer.

2) By "Brute Force" I mean to sit down and design, for example, a simple wood beam rather than using prescriptive codes and span tables. To the best of my knowledge the NYS residential code does not account for Steel Beam span tables, and must be engineered (I could be wrong, but I don't see steel tables in NYS res code like some have referenced to in the Canada code?). Therefore I was looking for a means to start to design the beam. I can take into account the load combo's required to determine the deflections and beam sizes, but never having actually specified one in the past and I am not sure how it would be connected if more than one beam is required along the length of the building.

3) I do have both code references, but I was looking for some actual feedback from professionals that have spec'd this type of beam/construction in the past. Possibly avoid roadblocks or hurdles before I encounter them.

4) Yes, garage has slab (if no basement underneath), but not mono/alaskan. Would be 4ft CMU (if no basement underneath) or 8ft CMU/Concrete with basement underneath. With hollow core modules no beam required. If I go with wood substructure (similar to barns and older homes with basements under parking areas) I would have a beam, possibly steel.

I am purely looking for the means to an end to calculate member sizes and connection types for the ideas I had for my addition. I look online for design ideas and then try to figure out if they are economically feasible. Being that these are my own projects (proposed, and wished for, perhaps never coming to fruition) I have the freedom to think of any off the wall idea, and design around it without any economical consequence becasue I am purely going through Ideas for my own use that will most likely never get built. Asking questions here also helps me to get to a starting place that other ENGINEERS start, or to get publications that other ENGINEERS use. By doing a simple search online I typically get homeowner/home inspector/uneducated opinion crap with no engineering basis.

Sorry for the long winded response here...

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

If your structure (house) is 48' long the steel beam is going to be ridiculously deep for a standard basement depth. Since your structure is only 28' across you'd almost be better off doing clear span open wood web flat trusses. they could span that with a total depth of 24" and provide room for mechanical and electrical openings. They are also pre-engineered so you're not liable for their design.

Just a thought if I'm understanding the point of the steel beam correctly.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

(OP)
You are correct. I looked at engineered I joists and I have found some that will be clear span at 28ft but for second floor use. If I decide not to make this only 28ft or decide to go heavier loading I think that the engineered floor trusses won't work or might get very expensive at such close spacing.

This simple garage addition ahs turned into a much larger task. We have two children under two and need the space in the next year or two desperately. Fact is, I will probably won't use a steel beam in this build, but if I did I wanted to learn proper methodologies to design one.

My inquiries are to most effeciently design an addition to gain garage space (we have no garage), and additional living space without blowing the budget out of the water (or going beyond the relatively small budget we anticipate having, ha).

Thanks all for the help. I will start going through the design manual.

Still trying to figure out how to connect them if two beams make up the long span....


RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

You would need to provide plates between the flanges and plates between the webs and a boat-load of bolts. Google "full moment splice steel" to get an idea

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

further to the expense thing. The builder's up here (Manitoba) love parallel chord wood trusses for floors now over I-joists. The same or superior strength with the mechanical chases already provided.

You want cost-effective space, ditch the basement, a ton of the cost is the excavation and concrete for that part. Then you could go with a slab on grade in the garage with perimeter grade beams supporting the walls, floors and roof above.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

jayrod: Your insulation costs must be much, much lower than here in Ontario... Basements are built here for nearly every structure as they are simply the cheapest way to deal with the frost line and heave issues.

How are you managing to build more cheaply without a basement in Manitoba? My understanding is you have a similar climat...

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

(OP)
Excavation costs are nothing bug fuel for me (HAve access to excavator and heavy equipment). I have a mason lined up for CMU or concrete pour (all of his labor free due to giving him free rent at my 80x60 pole barn, and I grew up with him).

Only reason I'm trying to get as big as I can is becasue I don't have many of the costs a typical homeowner would have. MY only real cost is materials, and my time to amnage and design.

I'll skimp on the finished for a year or two to get the structure up and tight.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

We have a very similar climate. I meant no basement under the garage. Put void form under the grade beams and have the foundations bear below grade (spread-bore piles or similar). As long as the base of the slab on grade is prepared correctly there shouldn't be unacceptable movement.

Most of the homes here have basements, not out of necessity for frost but more because we can (40+ feet of clay below our feet) and because you can get more usable space without the jump in taxes of having a two or 2 1/2 storey house.

I would bet on the super structure framing if you did a cost comparison between I-Joists (Or even standard lumber joists) and a centre support beam versus a clear span wood truss floor it would come out to a draw.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

And I guess thinking about it further the basements are in a way out of necessity for the people building their houses on strip footings because they already would have to excavate below frost to place those so they might as well build a basement. Most of the new houses being built here are on friction piles (at least any worth buying in my mind) and so frost is less of an issue.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

Quote (jayrod12)

You would need to provide plates between the flanges and plates between the webs and a boat-load of bolts. Google "full moment splice steel" to get an idea

Why not simply butt weld them together? Perhaps even get both connections at 1/4 span from the ends?

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

Kingnero: Because butt welding them together would be:

- a site weld (lower strength, not always the greatest, and at mid span would mean the beam is likely never going to fully develop)
And
- Expensive, short of a 'free' welder. You get what you pay for in this life...

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

end plates for a bolted moment connection would also need welding, so if there is welding involved, I'd prefer a butt weld that also avoids the disadvantages of bolting.
Having one delivered, there shouldn't be much extra costs over 40 vs. 48 ft. The added weight also is a void statement, you also will need big equipment to place a 40 ft beam.
So the butt weld (if even necessary) could be done by the same guy who otherwise would need to weld the endplates to both ends.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

Apex, if you're going for a economic design don't splice your beam, just add a post with a cap plate large enough to support the beam from each direction (as noted already).

You might want to look into using a bonus room above your garage. They can building the floor system directly into the roof truss. You get your garage and a some extra floor space above without the added cost of an entire 2nd floor. See link to google images incase you don't know what I mean.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=bonus+room+truss&am...

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

Hey kingero: But in the field, and at a premium cost. And yes, the welding of the end plates is significant, but it is still cheaper. Just the strange economy of steel production.

Not having the welder out of the shop is worth time and money to the fabricator. It is one of the many considerations to make in figuring out which way to design a solution.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

I meant, the butt weld could be done by the same guy in the same place (at the factory/shop who otherwise would have welded the endplates to both ends.
Because transportation wouldn't matter that much for the extra 8'.
And they will probably have 48' lengths (and more) in stock, so for all it matters, this is even a non-discussion to me, as there is no problem.

I would agree in other instances, but just not here, for using a bolted moment splice.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding Kingero; You're absolutely right if this is an option for his location...

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

yeah, but would you like the welds to be carrying the maximum load in this beam ?

i'd use nested splice angles (nest into the corner of the I-beam), a web splice, and a "boatload of bolts"

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

I'd be tempted to put them at 1/4 L of the ends (or 8' from one end), but a good weldment should be able to take full moment load.
lots of portal cranes/bridges are built up from more than one member, all butt welded together. I don't worry if 100% Rx (or UT) is performed.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

but I would hate to pay for that, I forgot to mention.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

(OP)
YEs. Sorry for teh confusion. I didn't intend to splict the beam, rather I wanted to know if anything special was needed to join them at the column supporting the ends of each. I was assuming some sort of splice plate to keep them together longitudinally, but nothing that will be considered a gusset or full tension splice member since there would be a column supporting the ends, adn lateral support from Joists.

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

Apex, I answered your question 25 Feb 6:06

RE: Looking to Use Steel Beam in Residential application

typo - 25 Feb 16:06

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