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How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?
17

How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

(OP)
I have green engineers on my staff that don't know which end of a hammer to apply to the nail.

Without sounding too much like an old furt curmudgeon (I ain't THAT old), the new crop of engineers has me worried.  They can run a computer (well, mostly) but have zero horse sense, no hands-on manual skills, feel for the way things go together, and know nothing about the practical side of machines or processes.  I can't send one of them out to the field to have an intelligent conversation with a welder or a crew lead.

30 years ago, kids built models, had Erector sets and Lincoln Logs, made jewelry, rode mini bikes and go-carts, did weavings and sewing, banged boards together to make a treehouse, and just generally tore stuff down and put it back together again.  In so doing one learns invaluable lessons that you just can't learn any other way.

I really think the primary and secondary educational strategy in this country over the last 25 years is partly to blame.  The "everyone must go to college to support the upcoming future service economy" is now coming home to roost and kicking us in the shorts.

I am really tempted to start having them do the oil changes on my truck.  That might be a start.

I'd love to hear what you guys are doing about this.  Might be a lost cause.  Save me from my curmudgeonly malaise.  Pete

 

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

People have told me that my 5-day Unconventional Gas Operations Engineering course has opened a few young eyes. You might think about doing something like that. JM Campbell has a version of it (last time I looked at the material it lacked a drilling section and the deliquification/artificial lift section was weak, but the rest looked to be in the same universe as mine. The problem with public courses is you can only send 1-2 guys to it and it turns into party time. With an in-house class you can get an entire work group in the same room and that creates competition that is really healthy.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

Hell, have 'em change the oil in the company fleet.
... and rebuild the engines.
--- and paint the shop.

On second thought, maybe you need to start them off with a kid's birdhouse kit.

At least encourage them to attend the DIY classes at Home Depot.

----------

Education seems to oscillate between practice and theory, with a period of ten years or so.

I envied my friend who went to a different college and had to build his own handcranked drill, from chuck to handle, including cutting the bevel gears.

We were encouraged and allowed to use the machine shop, until a grad student managed to get his hand caught in a belt sander; then the shop manager was allowed to retire, and the curriculum changed. I learned a lot from that cranky old man, and now I understand why he was cranky.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

I like Zdas rational reaction who saw an opportunity instead of showing sympathy which is by the way the sort of discussion the original post was looking for. Sorry no offense.

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

11
All good ideas for solving a problem that is probably not going away soon.  I feel the problem started when Engineering companies stopped being run by Engineers and started being run bu Accountants.  
There was a time when (at least where I came from) a new hire employee went through  training classes to bridge from school to the real world. I don't see that being done today.  Training classes today would take money that is perceived to be better spent on Bonuses for the Executives.
There is one segment of culture where this does not happen. Read the following and think about it.

A Conversation
(What if engineering companies thought about training this way?)
By James O. Pennock

The following article is a work of fiction. It portrays a hypothetical conversation that has not happened yet.  The setting is a private executive box at a major sports stadium before the start of the final championship game (American Football, European Football, etc.).  The venue was selected by these two gentlemen not only for the entertainment value but also for the privacy.  There are only two people present in the private "Sky Box" suite.  The first person (we will call Adam) is the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of one of the world's largest EPCM companies.  The second person (we will call Bill) is the President of Project Operations (PPO) for one of the world's largest energy conglomerates who is currently finalizing a bidder list for the FEED phase for their next "World Class" mega project worth upwards of 5 Billion US dollars.
To set the scene, the game has not started yet and the two men have spent the past two hours getting to know each other and watching the pre-game activities on the field.  
Down below both teams have been on the field, one team at one end of the field and the second team at the other end.  They have been going through various warm-up exercises, drills and mock plays.

Now let's pick up the conversation.

Bill: Adam, I really appreciate that you were able to get tickets to this game.  We have had the privacy we need and yet we will both be able to enjoy our favorite sport.
Adam: Oh! It was no problem getting tickets, I own stock in the home team and this is the company's Sky Box.
Bill: That's great!  Say, I have just been thinking.  Look at those players down there.
Adam: Yah, lots of talent worth a lot of money.  What were you thinking?
Bill: Well, Think back a few years.  Every one of those men started playing this game in the street in front of their house when they were just kids.  They may have played this game for many years in the street and sand lots.  Then in Secondary or High School they played three or four years in a more formal organization with real coaches and a play book full of plans for success.  Later they attended a University where they played for four more years at an even higher level with more complex problems and adversity.  After that the lucky ones are drafted by the professional organizations much like these two teams who will play here today.
Adam: Yep! That's the way it is in the big leagues.
Bill: Adam, don't you think there might be more to the picture than just that.
Adam:  What do you mean?
Bill:  Well here is the way I see it.  The players learned to play this game as that kid in the street.  Then went on to the next level and the next level and the next level each with three months of pre-season training, two-a-day workouts, club-house meetings going over the playbook.  All week between games they have more two-a-day work-outs and meetings to review post-game films to discuss what they did well and more importantly what they did wrong.  They also review game films of their next opponent to learn the strength and weaknesses they will see.  On game day, just like what we have seen down there they warm up, run patterns, practice kicks and do special drills to sharpen their timing and focus.  They knew how to play this game when they got out of High School.  They knew how to play this game HARD when they got out of the University.  Don't you think that all this training now is a big waste of money and time?
 Adam:  GEE! Bill you can't be serious!  That training for those guys is absolutely not a waste of time and money.  I don't know how you could even think such a thing.  That training is what makes a winner.  That training in what got these two teams here today.  And as a stockholder of I want a return on my investment.  I take an active interest in my teams training schedule.  If our coach did not have pre-season training or weekly training or pre-game warm-ups he would soon find himself out of a job.  And you can take that to the bank!  Yes sir! Training is what makes a winner.
Bill:  I'm glad to hear that's the way you feel.  So tell me what kind of training do you give your new employees?
Adam: Training, new employees?  We don't need to train new employees.  We hire only the best.  We bring them in, give them the HR manual, set them at a desk, provide them with a computer and they are expected to go to work.
Bill:  So for any new employee you believe what they say on their resume, right? So you expect each of them to read your mind and know exactly what you expect and when you expect I, is that right?
Adam:  Of course!  What else can you do?
Bill:  What do you do about current employees?  As you well know technology is always moving up and there are new thing to learn.  Do you have any kind of a training program to raise or improve the level of expertise of your current technical and management personnel?
Adam:  No, no we feel that in-house training is just a waste of time and money.
Bill:  If your company was to make it on to our bidders list and your bid was chosen, what kind of Pre-Project training would you conduct to insure the team, and I mean all of the team is all using the same play book?
Adam: We hold the Project Manager responsible for those things.  
Bill: Well then let me ask you this.  After the project has been completed, what kind of Post-Project meeting do you hold?  Do you have any kind of a review with ALL of the project members to review what you did well and what you need to do better the next time?
Adam:  Really, Bill I think that is just a waste of time and money.

At this point the game started and the two men turned their attention to the contest.  Both teams played hard as the lead switched first from one team then to the other.  At halftime the visiting team had just a three point lead as the two teams went to the locker rooms for their mid game rest and pep talk.  

We pick up the conversation again.

Bill:  So what you are saying is that you think that the game down there on that field today is more important than my five billion dollar project.  Is that right?
Adam: What are you saying?
Bill:  Well just before the game started we were talking about training and you said that training is a waste of money except for people who play games.  With that attitude I must assume that you think that the game down there on that field today is more important than my five billion dollar project.  Is that right?
Adam: Whoa! Now I see what you mean but Bill, I have never seen any kind of training in this business that replicates what a sports team does and I doubt that you have either.
Bill: Not true Adam.
Adam:  Do you mean to tell me that someone in this industry, one of my competitors has "spring training" for new hires?
Bill: Yes Adam that is just what I am telling you, "spring training" and more.  Here read this.

Adam takes the paper Bill offers and reads:

"As a new employee you can expect 80 hours of formalized discipline specific training including current company computer programs and another 80 hours of informal training to familiarize yourself with our clients, processes and nuances of the jobsite environment.  You'll also be assigned a mentor to help you acclimate. For employees who show initiative, you will be rewarded with promotion opportunities and the vast array of career paths existing within our Company framework."
 
Adam:  Wow! That must be very expensive.
Bill:  In my discussions with them they shared that this program is not the only thing they do.  Before every project starts they pull the assigned management and supervision team together and spend as much as a week putting together a Project Execution Plan.  They review past projects done for this Client.  They review past projects of the same type for pitfalls and lessons learned. They also review past projects that were installed in the same geographic region and climate conditions. The management and supervision is held responsible for passing on all the key project issues as new people are assigned to the project.  And that is passed right down to the lowest level of each member of the team.
 At three strategic points during the project: the end of the FEED stage; at the 50% point of detailed design and at the start of construction there are meetings held on the project for management and supervision to insure that every one is "on the same page."  
After the project is completed the management and supervision again come together to go over the lessons learned from the project.  The outfall of this project closeout meeting is used by the next project and by discipline departments to update and refine their training program.
Adam: Again I say that must be very expensive.
Bill: I would bet that they don't spend as much on that program as your company spends every year on this "Sky Box" and the other support you are giving to that team down there on the field.   That is why I said that you think that the game down there on that field today is more important than my five billion dollar project.  


The bottom line of this fictional conversation is about the relationship of spring training in professional sports vs. technical, administrative and management training in the process plant EPCM profession. What do you, the readers think?  Could this conversation take place?  What importance should an EPCM company place on training?  Will Adam's company make the bidders list?  Makes you stop and think doesn't it?



James O. Pennock is a part-time consultant in the Tampa, Florida area. He has more than 45 years of process plant piping engineering and design experience. His experience includes assignments in the design office, the training room, various job sites and pipe fabrication shops.
He is the author of the book "Piping Engineering Leadership for Process Plant Projects" Gulf Professional Publishing, April, 2001, ISBN 0-88415-347-9 and the article "Process Design Team: Thinking outside the box" Hydrocarbon Processing, December 2003.
He is semi-retired and lives in Florida where he plays tennis and responds to piping questions when asked.
  

prognosis: Lead or Lag

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

A star for pennpiper. Although I often do not like being at meetings, I do see that they serve a purpose. We have, slowly but surely, been implementing training for new hires. So far it has yielded great results, and I expect that to continue into the future.

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

Me too. I rarely read posts that long, but that one held my attention. I've never seen an EPC company go that far, but the best ones go in that direction. I've been called into two EPC companies to do some sort of training and both of those companies had a real training budget and both complained that finding germane training activities was difficult because so few companies in that industry bothered with training at all.

Producers are not a lot better. Most of the biggest ones have some sort of intern program where new hires spend 3 years in limbo. They have 2-4 job assignments in different locations, but the mentors have gotten little advice or training on what is expected of them (and the results are very spotty) and the training classes range from "what we did in 1980" to "how to use our e-mail system". Very little of it actually applies to the jobs the new hires will be asked to do. Smaller producers just wait until someone has been out of the intern program for a couple of years and then hire the recent interns away as experienced Engineers.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

Some foundational items do not appear within a resume. You need to pull them out in the interview.
1) In High School they play in band or sing in Choir? Were they in a basketball, baseball, or football team? These people had to coordinate everything they did with others to make the whole group perform best.
2) Did they grow-up in a small mid-west town, or on a farm? They had a chance to tinker with everything, make broken stuff work again, and gain a sense of hard work and responsibility.
3) Is their hobby parachuting? Hang-gliding? Rock climbing? Might have extreme attention to detail and safety. Worked with a guy like this. When he finished something, it was right.
4) Did they compete in an individual sport - track (not relay races), biking, swimming (no relay races, etc. Knew a guy who competed in a solo sailing sport and almost went for the Olympics. Too self-centered and competed with everyone around him.

I once found that at an interview the manager was most interested in a final line on my resume that said "Amateur radio". He later said that to have an amateur radio license when I did (70's in high school) indicated I was hip-deep into electronics and I got the job.

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

star also here.

Of course this conversation could take place. When Bill makes reference to a company which is offering training program for new employees is to me the fictional part because it simply does not happen anymore. It is a result of stupid management, loss of core values, and maybe kind of disdain of people in general.

I experienced this myself throughout my career. Several years ago I have been part of a big company that provided me with a solid training (like several weeks in a row) right from the start when I join their group. You know what ? For sure I needed to learn the job by practice, but that training gave me a structure and a basis to tackle the problems that I faced later on and I did good job. So someone who is saying that a saving can be made on this is simply not accepting the reality which is that performance and solid execution is combination of practice AND foundational training which is meant to give you a methodology especially when employee just start as it will dictate the rest of the career path in the company. Just to say the least, you might be an experienced new hire but do you know company tools, procedures, organization charts, etc. Certainly not and as I said that is a kind of minimum expectation. One would expect training to go even beyond that.

Training also gives a signal to employee that company is investing in people and this signal is healthy ; it means company is not simply using people and exploiting them as a labor/workforce which is modulated according to management desiderata - which makes a slogan like "our main asset is our people" is higher that the acceptable threshold of bullshit.Yes of course you could simply consider people as labor/workforce but then good luck to ensure quality of execution, commitment and the team spirit which is essential to keep motivation.

Yes there is a risk that people move and leave the company and that investment is somehow lost, but hey that is part of profit & losses. Somehow in the labor market, companies also hire people who have been well trained elsewhere so they also take benefit from this from time to time and for free.

It is a great thing that such conversation have been posted and I think it should answer quite well to the original poster what to do next.

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

I used to think the same thing about hiring farm kids. But that goes back to the original question of this thread. Today the population of farm kids is almost zero. I moved my business from urban California to rural Tennessee. There are almost no working farms left and the percentage of the population that are farm kids is very small. Most kids spend their time playing computer games and are over-weight. Even here the opportunities and motivation for kids to learn hands-on skills are limited. Drugs are just as big a problem here as in urban areas.
Pennpiper's story was a very good analogy, in many different ways. The emphasis was on the importance of employer training. But I think the part most relevant to this discussion is the part about kids learning to play football at an early age. No football team is going to take someone who is 21 years old and has never before played football and train that person to make a winning team. I think it is arguable that it is more important to hire kids who had played all their lives than to merely provide training. Obviously, training is important, too.

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

I have no doubt that some or all of you are thinking:
"Where does the money come from for all this Training?"

Simple! Do as Robin Hood did. Cut all the Executive Bonuses by 10% or 20%, what ever it takes.

Bigger Executive bonuses do not make the working level employees better, increase performance or improve product quality.
Bigger Executive bonuses do hurt the working level employee’s moral while increasing the greed frenzy among all other Executives.

prognosis: Lead or Lag

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

(OP)
Great replies guys. I appreciate your input.

rotaryw - Not looking for sympathy brother. Looking for input. No offense taken. Strange that it came across to you that way; reminds me of the old adage 'it is impossible to write (or say) something in such a way as your message can't be misunderstood'. Ruck up and drive on.

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

The only memorable thing from college was that in our first engineering class we had to design a paper plane, draw up the plans and fly them in a competition. Something so basic like that is missing from the jobs that I have had. I would constantly ask one past employer if I could sit in on meetings or visit the job site while they spoke to the contractors. I was always turned down. I even said you don't have to pay me, can I just come along so I can learn more about what I am designing. They would just say go home and read a manual on my own time. That's how it was with something like CAD. Really complex projects they would just drop a new person in and say get to work. Yes the people who stuck around figured out who to ask and do things right. But a simple few hours of explaining something (training), anything would have helped instead of me spending days/weeks with people figuring it out.

It would be like telling someone go change my oil and handing them a torque wrench, sockets, jack and pan. It would save a ton of time to explain to that person what is going on and then will know how to change the oil on most cars properly.

I am 35 so I probably fall under the OP age category of lazys. My school was a research school and did not prepare me at all for real life work. The best prof's were teaching part time. The worst were lab rats.

If I was interviewing someone I would probably give them some legos and instructions and see how long it takes them to put that together. The better one I have seen is put someone in front of a project and ask them to do something. And see how they process what to do. I was offered a job after doing horrible on their test. But they said certain things I answered right most people didn't understand and rarely got right.

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer
http://bwengr.com

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

I got into old cars. As daily drivers. Mercedes 61x diesels, modified for using waste fryer oil as a secondary fuel. Something about not working sunday, has to work monday that gets you into a problem. Don't know how you can make anyone do this.

GE (20 years ago at least, my dad was talking to the trainer) used to train their new engineers and have them do a project together. One was a flag pole w/ self raising & furling flag. Other companies just throw their green people into actual projects w/ real money & customers on the line. GE used to also hire apprentices (like my granddad, who retired from GE)

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

(OP)
Thanks Moon161. Check out http://www.mercedeslist.com/. It's a mailing list for MB owners. Lots of 61x diesel guys on there and a few with veggie oil conversions. Several VERY experienced old tyme MB mechanics/shop owners on there. I had a W124 M104 gasser until just last year.

Your mention of new engineers being thrown together to work on a joint project is giving me some ideas...

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

I find it fairly easy to identify the hands on engineers in a properly conducted interview. If they are prior military they probably have a pretty good dose of common sense and if they talk in depth about hands on things, that also clues me in. I usually make it a priority to ask about hobbies at some point in the interview. Unfortunately I have seen time and time again my bosses hire the guys who talked a good game but possessed very few of the qualities that I mention above. I think this is because those type of engineers get into the profession and realize they aren't that interested in engineering and become the engineering managers. These same engineering managers hire more like themselves and the cycle repeats. I always make an extra effort to talk up the more practical ones in post interview reviews to help nudge them my way because at the end of the day I will be the one having to deal with them more often.

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

Hi KernOily

I share the same feelings about the new crop of engineers, they can run a computer without much trouble and even produce 3D models and do stress analysis however ask them to properly dimension a 2D drawing, or do a hand calculation for the deflection of a beam and they are queuing to hang themselves in the corridor. The problem for these young engineers is that there are no proper apprenticeships here like there used to be, so they go to university for 4 years or more and never get to see any real manufacturing until after graduation.
My company now get the newbies to start off using 2D drawing packages so, that they have to think about drawing projection and to make them visualise what a component looks like from another point of view.
From a calculation point of view we ask them to do a hand calculation where possible so that they get a feeling for what they are trying analyse.
How we train them in my company is not perfect but at least now we are trying to get them not to rely solely on the computer software.

desertfox

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

Quote (rotaryw)

...offering training program for new employees is to me the fictional part because it simply does not happen anymore.
I have to take exception to this... while it is a rarity, some companies do focus on extended employee training and development. Not just new hires but continual.

“Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively.”
-Dalai Lama XIV

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

I don't want to hijack this thread and make another thread about complaining about codes, but...
Common sense designs are being legislated out of existence by exceedingly complex codes. Formulae used to be simple enough that one could understand the gist of what was being calculated. Now we are forced to follow a "cookbook" mentality with equations so complex that it is almost impossible to decipher what is really being calculated.

Somehow, buildings were designed to be safe 50 years ago even without these PhD-level equations.

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

Take their office chairs apart, have them put the chairs back together without giving them the instructions.

You lose points if you ask for the instructions before trying.
You gain points if you ask for the instructions after making a solid attempt.
You lose points if you haven't put it back together by the end of the day, yet still refuse to ask for instructions.

And obviously if it only takes you 5 minutes to put it back together, you're in good shape.

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

The college that I graduated from had a great engineering co-op program where I split my time between studies and actual industry work experience. I was already one of those tinkerers that liked to build and take apart things, but 30 years later I still believe the work experience I got while attending school is invalulable. I now have a young co-op working for me and having the ability to apply what he has learned in an actual setting is great experience for him. I would look for young engineers who have work experience in a setting related to their field of study rather than a service job.

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

When I worked at an EPC company, I led a group of about 10 summer/co-op students to a trade show. We looked at all sorts of actual things: flanges, valves, pipe, pressure vessels, pumps, etc. Some of the vendors even had cut-aways for valves, which even I found interesting. They all found that afternoon much more of a learning experience compared to their previous 1.5 months sitting at their desks.

I also second the idea of taking them out to the field. I recently found a photo of myself and a co-op student at a construction site for a major petro-chemical plant. Because it was only an hour drive from the office, when I had to go out, I took the student with me. I spend a few hours more than I needed to out there, but showing all those things that we had seen in drawings or sketches was invaluable. Seeing a whole lay down yard of the cryogenic insulated pipe supports that we had ordered two months prior was an eye opener. From that point onwards, I could see a much more practical approach to her work.

Myself, my first two summer jobs were as an oilfield operator and a gas plant operator. I learned all about "long shiny things" (pipe), and "tall shiny things" (pressure vessels) before I even learned about designing or fabricating them. But, by that point, I was very aware of the abuse that operators could lay on these things, and that certainly informed my design approach. That experience also informed my current thoughts about training for bolted flange joint assemblers (I received no training, and in hindsight did all sorts of things that now, as an engineer, I would never specify...). In that vein, I had one employer (a major oilsands producer), who had a mandatory 4 month term as a process operator (including shift work) for any process engineer who wants to be a plant contact engineer. Real. Practical. Experience.

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

2
When I read the little story between Bill and Adam, all I could think of Adam telling Bill;
a) Glad to do it and we'll charge it to your project!
b) Fine, Bill, that's a great idea, but it will change our multiplier from 1.85 to 1.9.
Bill wants all your people to go through a training course, but he's also the one negotiating to the gnat's butt when it comes to the bottomline for his projects. The big guys talk a great game, but they don't want it to affect their project.
Everyone wants the benefit of trained experienced people on the project, but no one wants to pay the tariff. In this day of capped rates and off shoring, there's no budget for hands on training or field trips. We try to fit them in, but it's hard to commit to them. Certain people will seek out the practical knowledge on their own or others won't.
I'm not saying it's right, but it's the times we live in.

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

If I have to interview one more "programmer" who is only capable of using Java, I'm going to snap.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

I attempt to give new hires (including interns and new external design houses) some very limited training on our CAD system and how we use it and some of our documentation standards, tolerancing (esp position)...

Unfortunately, overtime it's reached a point where it's pretty much self paced - I give them the ppt & list of resources and tell them to go over it in their own time & come back with specific questions, I'm generally not given the time (theirs or mine) to go over it in person.

Also many managers do not give them time to look over it and come up to speed.

Also many of the new employees don't take the initiative to try and complete it under their own steam - at least not in any depth - and I rarely get questions based on the training material. They also don't seem to show much initiative in trying to find out how things should be done etc.

I take great delight when one of them comes over - sometimes supervisor in tow - to ask me how to do something covered by the training and I ask them "did you look at that section of the training?".

It was most enjoyable when the intern in question was the engineering director's son, he and the guy overseeing him came over asking me how to do stuff and rather than answering directly I referenced them back to the training for each of their questions. After the second or third question they got the point and said 'sounds like I/you should go look at the training'. Ah, happy memories.

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RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

Co-op programs are a really sore point with me. When my son was in Engineering school his "adviser" (who had a PhD in English Lit, and an undergraduate degree in something like "women's studies") advised him that co-op's were a waste of time and he'd be better off mowing lawns during the summer. I hit the roof, bitched to the department head (who had never worked outside of academia) and he said he stood behind the advice, and my son should get his BS and stay for grad school instead of trying to do a co-op. I wanted to strangle the guy. The best new grads I've ever seen have all come out of the co-op system, but that system is being phased out at too many schools. I just don't understand.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

As a green engineer, I'd like to toss in some viewpoints from the bottom of the ladder.

I participated in most of the things that have been mentioned above as contributing to "horse sense". From toys as a kid to tearing down and rebuilding stuff- either to fix it or just because I could- to carpentry/electrical work either at home or as "extra-curriculars", I've always been the guy working on stuff. But there is only so much you can learn from those kinds of things. Welding, process engineering, fluids, serious machining- all stuff that just wasn't available to me (or anybody I know) growing up. Even in college with tools (but not much time) at my disposal, I didn't get (or, I suppose, find or take) an opportunity to really dig in and get dirty with the stuff that I just wish I knew better how to do.

I think most of the failing is in the hands of the new engineers who sat at their desk and didn't "get out there", but I strongly believe that engineering curriculum should have a two-course series on applied engineering (beyond the typical senior design project). Learning things such as system components (what they are and how they work) for various industries, engineering codes/standards (learning how to navigate the sea of them), and a larger focus within the one manufacturing course on welding, bolting, riveting, and more welding would have been useful.

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

2
The shortcomings of Engineering programs are legion. I've heard it said many times that an Engineering degree just shows that you have the analytic ability to eventually become a contributing Engineer. People that hire new grads with the expectation that they will be able to replace the 20 year guy who just quit are truly doing a disservice to both the new-hire and to the company.

One thing that is easy to lose in this discussion is that today's class of new Engineers has every bit of the ability of any other generation. There might be more variation in the knowledge required for graduation from school to school than their used to be (I think ABET is really focusing on the wrong things these days), but the people have the same mix of stars and slugs as any other generation, and today's stars are every bit as competent as the stars of previous generations. The huge lack in the world today is the ability to treat new-hires as a future asset and develop them properly.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

GTME12-

It might not have applied directly, but it taught you how to THINK

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

I have over 25 years experience in my field, and I have always worked with "green" engineers. The "green" engineers I have worked with recently actually have better skills than I do at tasks like creating analysis/simulation models in Matlab or writing scripts for CATIA.

I love having them around because they usually make my life easier. All you need to do is give them tasks that they are good at doing.

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

One of the best "green" engineers that I work with happens to be a mechanical engineering graduate from my alma mater... They have been requiring a "senior project" for years now. This guy learned teamwork, design skills, critical thinking, welding, and Solidworks among other things. However, it also helped that he worked summers in a tooling & die shop. If all the mechanical engineers I have worked with over the years had his skills, there would have been a lot fewer headaches for me. After all, when a machine build is completed - it becomes a "programming" problem. evil (Just ignore the piss-poor design and improperly sized / positioned actuators)

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

It is interesting that the majority of the reactions to the story about formal corporate training was to go out and get non-academic experience, not more classroom or corporate training. Get your nose out of a book and open the hood of a car, or pick up a hammer, or get a hands-on job while in college. I agree with all of these things as good professional and character builders.

But I also see formal corporate training as a valuable tool, and not a cost to the company, but an investment in their future as well as the employees. The faster you can get young engineers up and running, the sooner they will be profitable for you. The harder that running back trains in the offseason, the more productive he will be in the regular season.

But the one thing I would have done differently (as a structural engineer) is work/intern with a construction or engineering company while in school. I think a summer on a construction site or factory (I did the latter) would be awesome for nearly any engineering student. We all have our gripes and complaints about our undergrad programs, ABET restrictions, classes that we did not need, etc., but until that changes, the only way to get more practical experience is to go out and seek it as a college student. Unfortunately, most students, myself include, did not have that kind of foresight.

So back to the OP about greenhorns- do what my boss did, and bring them to every site visit and meeting possible. Get them exposed to the built environment maybe even before shoving them behind a computer or set of drawings. It makes design and thinking in 3D a lot easier if you have seen whatever it is you are dealing with. Even just letting a young engineer shadow a site superintendent in the field for a couple of days would be an awesome experience.

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

Well done HornToot EE. Teach people how to think and not what to think.I call it missing the glue. Know the formulas, can work a calcualtor and a computer can't put it together. My compnay has all training programs. Holiday jobs, Vac students, In-service trainees and Engineer In training programs. We spend a fortune. As soon as they start becoming usful the leave for more money or perks thinking that they still know it all. I have three students follwing me around at the moment. 6 months of hell on my part. I'm very short with them and very direct. I have told them if they don't like it they are free to leave. They atend meetings, Factory Acceptance tests, Rewind checks, and we discuss every safety incident that comes our way. They have to get into overalls and get dirty. They are required to write reports so I can check on comprehension. More work for me. I know when they are finished with me they will be able to cut it. I hardly ever tell them what an answer is, I ask questions and get them to answer. When they do, I ask why and how they arrived at the answer. More hard work.You can't learn experience from a book. You can't eat or drink it. You can't study it. You have to experience it. Sore muscels and tired minds is a good day.

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

Internships are still alive and well in Silicon Valley.

While the movie is obviously a caricature, Google, Facebook, Microsoft, etal, are all investing heavily in interning college students, both as a means of pre-training future employees, but also as a means of probating those potential employees, as well as providing a concrete example of what a full-time engineering job looks and feels like once these students graduate. I was lucky enough in my college days to get summer and part-time jobs in the industry, so I had a pretty good idea what real work would be like, and I wound up at the company I part-timed at. I think there's a much better transition to the real-world if you've already been in it as an intern or part-timer.

My son got an internship at such a company last summer, and will be reporting to his full-time job there after he graduates this year. Of course, there was the lure of free three squares a day winky smile

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RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

HornTootin EE- I absolutely agree. The analytical skills I had (athlete's raw talent) were certainly honed through my education. But that first step is a doozy when you're all of a sudden playing in the big leagues and there are previously-unseen things like standards/codes and a lack of "back-of-the-book" materials properties. The jump is, of course, manageable.

Anyway, I was not meaning to complain about the way things are done. I apologize if that's how I cam across. I simply wanted to share my perspective from the other end of the experience spectrum.

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

KernOily- a very timely post, and a very important topic. Engineers in general have a reputation among the trades, in many cases well deserved, of lacking horse-sense. Sometimes that arises because hindsight is 20/20, but often it arises because of a failing in engineering education. That failure isn't principally at the university level- it's part of the broken transition from school to work that has been getting nothing but worse over the past 20 years.

It would be impossible to teach codes and standards etc. at the university level, because the profs don't know anything about them. The profs they hire today are nearly all academics with zero or near zero meaningful industrial experience, otherwise they would not have been considered qualified candidates in the "paper chase" that academia has become. In my day, there were at least a few old industrial guys still around, but they're all retired or in the ground by now. 100% of their replacements are researchers, some of whom are gifted teachers, but none of them are competent to teach sizing and selection or plant design in my opinion.

I'm lucky, working in a design/build setting, and because I grew up with a machine shop in my basement.

Here, we hire co-op students, then pick the best ones and hire them- that takes care of the personality fit, drive and other stuff that is only a guess in an interview. I agree with other posters: there are just as many superstars as there ever were in the new crop of engineers, and just as many duds.

As far as training them, we've figured out how to mentor people decently on the job, where in reality most of the real, meaningful and effective training takes place out of pure economic and practical reality. It's always been that way in anything other than big companies- it's a mentor/trainee relationship during the execution of the work that gets the ideas across best. We've been pretty good, if a little lazy recently because we've been busy, at getting the juniors to do seminars for the continuing education of the whole group, under the direction of a mentor- that works better than getting the mentor to do the seminar. There are seminars we repeat every year because the topics are key to our business.

As to the practical hands-on part, there were just as many kids who were useless with tools in my batch in chem eng as there are now, and that was a couple decades ago. Most people in the class had little to no hands-on with hand tools much less machine tools- and those ranks slimmed even further when I was in grad school. I was the only one in a 19 person group of post docs, PhD and Masters' students, who could do basic electrical troubleshooting, bend and swage tubing etc. It's no different today, except there's more DIY home reno going on today than there was in my day, and there are all these robotics teams etc. that didn't exist in my day either. On the contrary side, helicopter parents don't let their kids play with tools, or walk to school on their own etc., and that parenting style has been institutionalized in schools etc. The stuff I did with tools in my childhood would be considered parental neglect these days rather than what it really was- excellent training to be a competent human being much less an engineer. Honestly I don't know how so many people can be content with knowing so little about how the world around them "works", or how to fix any of it when it's broken- it would make me feel helpless.

At long last, we're starting a formal hands-on training program for our engineers- and not just the young ones. We're going to teach them, then let them DO, stuff that right now they can observe and learn about any day of the week in our facility, but many choose not to for whatever reason or do so in a very superficial fashion. We do have the 'elf and safety and liability rubbish to concern ourselves with, but right now we feel that the risk of having ignorant people designing work for tradesmen to implement is a much worse liability to us than the risk of some burns or scratches in training. We're already ahead of the game because we're non-union and there's none of that work differentiation/turf protection crap to put up with- the shop staff are enthusiastic about demonstrating their skill and knowledge and carrying out some of the training. We'll let you know how it works out- it's going to take some time and effort.

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

"If I have to interview one more "programmer" who is only capable of using Java, I'm going to snap."
But imagine working with experienced drafters who don't know how to draft!

My Senior Design project was a year long design and document process with a professor, actual person working, and team of 8 other students. With the final being a lecture to the real workers about what we were proposing. I went to a research school but we still had hands on for most of the stuff we studied. Like pouring concrete, using an earthquake simulator table, etc. Is that not normal for College in the States?

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer
http://bwengr.com

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

Java is definitely a step up from Alice. I almost sense an ex-coworker who declared that anyone using C++ instead of assembly language was a dilettante winky smile Seems like hard-core programmers all look down on people that use what they consider an inferior language. At least they're not using Ruby on Rails, which is supposedly even simpler to use than Java...

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RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

I don't think you should leave the university's themselves out of this discussion. The push over the last decade or so has been to produce "well rounded engineers". Perhaps we were better off when engineers weren't as much well rounded as they were sharp? We have had senior level interns come through our company who haven't taken a steel or concrete course at all. On the rare chance we get a second semester senior through that has, or is currently taking, a design course, we find out that they haven't done more than create shear and moment diagrams.

One big step I believe is for universities to start hiring professionals out of the workforce instead of career researchers. It's not that research isn't valuable but I think the students would fare better being taught by someone in undergrad who has actually designed a beam as opposed to someone who has written 12 dissertations on why the steel behaves like it does when it's in use.

PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

Seems to me that these arguments are hardly new. When I went to college many eons ago, I specifically inquired about what mix of practical vs. theoretical existed at my candidate schools. Almost all of my non-frosh class professors were well-known in their respective industries, and were often called to consult in industry. Nonetheless, it was not uncommon to refer to professors as "ivory-tower" types back then as well. Most of my son's current professors are heavily tied to their respective industries.

That said, a graduate from a college in the middle of nowhere is unlikely to have had professors with industry ties, simply because there's probably a lack of industry around such places.

Furthermore, college is what you make of it; when I graduated, I had lab courses as well as 2 equivalent years of relevant summer/part-time jobs. One of my classmates, though, had not yet even touched an oscilloscope at graduation.

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RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

There was a question on where the money is to come from for the training. In South Africa every company has to be registered with a SETA specificity that industry. Here is a simplified explanation. For every employee, they have to pay a minimal amount, 0.5% of salary. This is then held in a SETA fund. Companies can then send staff on approved training courses. They then claim the money back. PROBLEM each SETA now sits with a lot of money doing nothing. Next, each SETA has employees that are friends or relitives (I do generalize here as the are some good ones). Companies claim the training money but it takes months, even years to be refunded, thus small companies who need the training but suffer with cash flow challenges, tend not to send people. Larger companies tend to run their own training or send management and accountants for expensive training where accommodation in fancy hotels is the greater part of the cost.

The universities have now started a pilot program where students who require practical training having completed their studies can be placed with willing companies and the SETA pays them a stipend. I have 3 slaves that follow me around. They have small projects and we have daily discussions. They accompany me on factory visits and presentations. We discuss every safety incident reported from the 16 entities. They learn a lot from these. Back to the money. These poor, fellows have now worked for 2 months without pay as there is a problem with getting the money out of the SETAs. One lives in a tin shack on the side of a hill next to an industrial area, which he rents as he does not come from this area. He walks great distances to catch cheap transport to work.

A good system destroyed by incompetence and bureaucracy.

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

squeeky-

You make some excellent points regarding the effort and expense to get a university engineering degree versus what you will earn as an entry level engineer during the first few years on the job. One young guy I worked with that just graduated from an Ivy League school with an MSEE told me that the highest paying job offers he received were from private investment firms, rather than from engineering companies.

RE: How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense?

Well, at least they don't have a psychology degree. The whole subject of ROI of college degrees is a pretty popular subject every fall/winter. Leaving school with $200k of debt, but facing a lifetime of $35k jobs is a poor situation. Some people just don't seem to grasp the concept that you need to get an employable college degree, and certainly not any old PhD (Party hardy & Drinking)

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