Under plates grout
Under plates grout
(OP)
The metal plate has about 10mm vertical spaces underneath it, is non-shrink grout or epoxy better filler or what other materials can be used to fill it that can take load that can go inside the 10mm spaces?






RE: Under plates grout
RE: Under plates grout
RE: Under plates grout
The plate is just thin long 40mm angle bar where you support those decoration accent bar frames you see outside building, the load is just very low not even 8kN. It's sitting on concrete. Just need to fill in the 10mm space with something that won't shrink. Would there be a good substitute for non-shrink grout? would epoxy work since these have lower viscosity than non-shrink grout?
RE: Under plates grout
Dik
RE: Under plates grout
Is there a specific reason why you want an alternate product?
PE, SE
Eastern United States
"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi
RE: Under plates grout
Don't try to reinvent the wheel. Use the grout.
RE: Under plates grout
RE: Under plates grout
RE: Under plates grout
http://can.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a00...
quoting from the product literature
■ Minimum application thickness (neat without additional aggregate): 25 mm (1 in).
■ Maximum application thickness (neat without additional aggregate): 150 mm (6 in). Thicker
applications are possible with the addition of suitable aggregate.
RE: Under plates grout
Sika 212 minimum thickness (flowable) in NZ: 10mm
"" "" in Canada: 25mm (*cough* BS *cough*)
Sika 300 PT (not available in NZ last I knew) minimum thickness 3mm...
Frankly me thinks we are getting the "make them buy the more expensive product" tactic from Sika...
I'd like to hear a TECHNICAL reason why a product is good for certain tolerances in Australasia and lesser ones over here.
RE: Under plates grout
RE: Under plates grout
RE: Under plates grout
What material is the "40 mm angle bar"? I imagine that 10 plate shims, hot dipped galvanized, would have superior corrosion resistance to that of your decorative frames. One disadvantage of the grout is that it is brittle, thus subject to cracking due to impact. But if that happens, you just grout it again.
RE: Under plates grout
Please view attached picture of the decorative frame with grills. It's bolted up, so no problem with attachment. There is just 10mm gap in the angle bar connection to the concrete below. I inserted 10 mm rebar but you can still insert paper to a 0.5 gap below the 10mm rebar. So I plan to remove the bars inserted into the gap and just use non-shrink grout, would it flow into the gap?
RE: Under plates grout
RE: Under plates grout
RE: Under plates grout
Dik
RE: Under plates grout
I don't know what Sika is up to other than pushing the more expensive option where available, and being realistic about the cheaper option where they don't market the costly stuff. *sigh*
RE: Under plates grout
RE: Under plates grout
Dik
RE: Under plates grout
Product Data Sheet
Edition 6.19.2012
SikaGrout® 212
Minimum application thickness: 1/2 in.
Typical maximum application thickness (neat) is 2"
Product Data Sheet
Edition 6.27.2012
Sikadur 42, Grout-Pak LE
The minimum void depth beneath the base-plate should be 1 in (25 mm), but 1.5 in (38 mm) is preferred.
RE: Under plates grout
RE: Under plates grout
RE: Under plates grout
Grout.
RE: Under plates grout
Notice rain from outside can get in the bars and rust them that is why I want to put grout or even epoxy in it.
What is sika "expensive option where available"? Are you talking of epoxy or another more expensive sika grout than 212?
To those who have handled non-shrink grouts. How flowable are they? Are they like shakes that you order at coffee shop? I haven't seen such before and can't imagine.
In your experience. When rain gets inside welded iron connections. Won't it rust the inside? Because if the welded connection in the photo got rusted, the whole frame may just fall leaving the angle bar grouted on the concrete edge.
RE: Under plates grout
to add the 4th question from the above message, notice the zoomed attached picture of the gap with inserted 10mm bars. Can non-shrink grout flow in between the 10mm bars or should I remove the 10mm bars inserted in the gap? The reason I inserted them is to serve as shim but then a paper could be inserted under the 10mm bars so if I insert thin metal sheet under them and then put flowable grout on the left free end and in between the bars inserted, the question is whether the grout would flow into all the gap behind?
RE: Under plates grout
With long trench like this I would expect some cracking, but not lots... It is non-shrink after all!
A few more questions are raised by your photo:
- Where is this? (Nice shoes, by the way)
- What cause this gap? What was the original detail?
- How readily are the "rarer" Sika products available where you are?
RE: Under plates grout
We don't have Sika 300.. only Sika 215 which still has 10mm minimize gap. I'm in Indonesia.
The gap is done on purpose by the accent installer so water won't be stuck if there is no gap since there is bound to be micro gap where water can stay or hide by some kind of capillary action and stay. He said if the gap is bigger, the water can drain easily by gravity. See attached picture of the entire accent taken from above. It's only bolded at the top so it's like hanging. That is why I need to put grout in the bottom to make the concrete take the load. Won't epoxy injection after sealing with putty be a better option and letting the bars in the gap stay? Or better to remove the bars before putting the sika 212 non-shrink group?
RE: Under plates grout
Ask the local Sika rep for advice if you aren't confident in all the people saying grout here. Also by involving Sika's local rep, they cannot claim you used a product incorrectly.
Well, of course they can, and will... It just is much less likely to stick.
RE: Under plates grout
RE: Under plates grout
This is the inside top details. The whole width of the accent is 2.3 meters wide by 3 meters height. The screws have 2" expansion bolts both in the inside top and outside (previous picture). They said it can carry the accent. But I want the accent to be carried at bottom too.
Can 10mm non-shrink grout be able to carry load? I was thinking of epoxy as it can fill all the gap, but at very small strain it can only carry light load... so I prefer non-shrink grout since the stress-strain are better.
Also to be sure the bottom can carry the load. I think I'll insert metal sheet to the 10mm bars shim.
RE: Under plates grout
If you went with a low-viscosity epoxy resin (not saying this is the best way to go in this application) for a thickness of 10mm you would be best to pre-place small aggregate (less than 10mm), them thoroughly seal (caulk) up all the edges, and gravity feed the resin. The aggregate will act as a heat sink to avoid thermo cracking of thickened/large mass resin.
Unless you fully seal up the edges/boundaries of the extent of grouting, you will get major leaking and a big mess to clean up! Speaking from experience
RE: Under plates grout
I cannot correlate the details shown in the three photos; are they all of the exact same object?
Chster6, how did this come to be your problem?
Why do you wish to fill a gap that a presumably experienced professional would prefer to leave open?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Under plates grout
Yes they are the same object, the 3 pictures are taken of the bottom inside, top inside, and from the roof outside. Just imagine a rectangular accent sized 2.3 meters wide and 3 meters height.
In object like this. The natural thing is to have the concrete support the accent. But the installer wants to leave gap and hang it. I don't think it is stable. I thought the non-shrink grout can seal it. Won't it? If I use low viscosity epoxy (the same they use in sealing cracks) that can seal it and avoid any water seep. What would be the problem of thermo crack in the epoxy since it can still take the load? In a few days. Glass frames will be put over it so I can't access the bottom anymore.
RE: Under plates grout
RE: Under plates grout
After discussion with installer, they said grout ok if sealant will be used since the grout part will be higher than the existing concrete and the angle bar is closed, only the end is open which would be sealed.
I purchased one bag of sika 212 from the retail shop. For those who have used this already. How do you know when you have used too much water? Won't it cause spaces in the mix just like water filling up the spaces in concrete between the aggregates and paste making it weak? Doesn't this occur in non-shrink grout? Why?
RE: Under plates grout
Grab a copy of the technical/ product data sheet for this product or maybe refer to the bag for mixing instructions and water requirements depending on the characteristics you require.
Usually for grouts it will state: "For plastic grout use X liters of water per 20 kg bag" and "For flowable grout use Y liters of water per 20 kg bag". Y will be greater than X. Do NOT use more water than required. Use a mechanical mixer too and mix for the stated duration.
RE: Under plates grout
When you add more than the bag says. If you haven't worked with t before. DO NOT try to do this by eye!
"Won't it cause spaces in the mix just like water filling up the spaces in concrete between the aggregates and paste making it weak?"
Yes and no. Water becomes an integral part of the grout, through the process of hydrolisation. The "magic" of non-shrink is doing this without shrinkage. Really good grouts do this without expanding at any stage as well. Note: While the more water you add, the lower a strength you get, it is not fair to say that it is "weak". Read the specs, stay within the parameters.
"Doesn't this occur in non-shrink grout? Why?"
Sure it does, but raising the w/c ratio is not the end of the world... This isn't flour; so long as the set flowable consistency product's properties meet your needs you're good to go.
And if you want to try and keep water out, try caulking around the base. That may buy you more time, but this is going to rust eventually. Should have been galvanised, in my opinion.
RE: Under plates grout
When the non-shrink grout hardened, would it be able to take the load of the accent? or is it just there to fill in spaces?
In the case of baseplates where it is supposed to take loads. How can this occur when the grout just fill in the spaces?
RE: Under plates grout
RE: Under plates grout
RE: Under plates grout
The 10mm bar shims were removed because it's not in contact with the floor surface. In fact, the angle bar gap is really about 11mm. Windows and frames will be installed over it on Saturday. After I put the grout in the 11mm gap. Would the angle bar on top of it be in contact with it such that the grout will become loading bearing? Because if it does not, the entire windows and frame will be taken by the handing screws above. So how can I make sure the grout in the gap will take the load of it? Does mere filling it do it?
RE: Under plates grout
RE: Under plates grout
I spoke to the local Sika rep about the 212 outside of Canada and inside of Canada minimum gap issue. It turns out that while the mix design is nearly the same, the maximum aggregate size is 8mm in Canada and 3mm basically everywhere else. It has to do with what they can get for a good price and is done to keep the price down on the Sika 212. Given the basic recommendation/rule of thum of S>=3*Max Aggregate, we get 25mm for the Canadian product.
Now we know, and I feel better again about my faith in Sika.