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Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
5

Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

(OP)
I am involved in a project that has a concrete contractor and a steel erector as two separate contracts. Neither contract specifies who is to provide leveling nuts or shims. In my mind the answer is obvious that the steel erector is to provide the leveling nuts or shims because they have a choice on how to set the level and don't have to use one over the other (shims or nuts). The concrete contractor provided the anchor rods and one nut, which is what the drawings require. The drawings also show 1.5" grout space between concrete and baseplate. The steel erector is saying that they can't install the columns until the concrete contractor provides him with leveling nuts. I tried looking in the code of standard practice, but don't see anything there. Is there a standard that says the erector is to provide these? Or is it the concrete contractor's responsibility? Or is it the responsibility of the owner to make sure that the contract specifies one way or the other?

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

you have bigger problems than just a few missing nuts...

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

The CISC Code of Standard Practice says that the fabricator or erector needs to supply wedges, shims or levelling screws. No idea in the US.

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

If I were the judge, I'd say whoever did the drawings should be supplying the leveling nuts, or some other means to lift the baseplates up against the retaining nuts while the grout cures.

If the problem ever gets anywhere near a judge, you'll wish you had just gone to Grainger and bought the damn nuts with your own money.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

I don't see it in the Code of Standard Practice either.

Ask your erector what his plan was to set and level the columns. If there are no shims or leveling plates or extra nuts shown on the documents, what did he base his bid upon? Other than a gotcha.

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

Honestly, if this is turning into one of those ridiculously pointless pride fights that sometimes pop up, I'd likely recommend that the owner accept a change from the erector (or authorize spending out of their contingency) for whatever hilariously small amount of money it would take to supply nuts.

The amount of time you're going to charge arbitrating this is going to be more than the cost of the nuts and if this sets you back at all in schedule it's probably not worth it.

While issuing the change you can straight up tell the owner and contractor that you believe that it's already their responsibility but are doing this for pragmatic reasons.

However, if it isn't clear in the documents, it's also a good lesson learned for the future.

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

(OP)
Thanks for the responses. I would never let this get as far a litigation, I would have gone and bought the nuts myself if it came to that, but I was just curious if there was a standard for that sort of thing. After several back-and-forths with the erector, they have agreed to provide the nuts, though they still feel that it shouldn't be their responsibility.

This is probably something that should be specified more clearly on the contract documents in the future I guess.

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

It should also be in your drawing checklist.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

2
There is probably not a universal convention, but my experience is that the steel fabricator provides all anchor bolts, including levelling nuts and levelling plates if required by the documents. The concrete contractor takes possession of the steel and builds it in. Then the erector does the rest, including providing shims if required, and usually grouting. But the general contractor or project manager needs to coordinate all of this, not the designer. Separate contracting without this coordination always leads to arguments.

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

star for hokie and to add, it sounds to me like either there is no general contractor, in which case the owner must take that role - or - there is a general and he should be the one eating the cost of the missing nuts. the bigger problem is that if the two subs are fighting over who forgot the nuts than expect more trouble in the future from them as the job continues. Sounds like a good time for a partnering meeting.

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

I agree with Hokie66. Does the project specification reference AISC's Code of Standard Practice for Steel Bridges and Buildings? Section 2.1 says structural steel includes: anchor rods, leveling nuts and washers, and leveling plates. I suggest you download a pdf of the Code of Standard Practice for Steel Bridges and Buildings and search for the word "anchor"

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

I would call both of them up and say. "I am sure if I look hard enough I am sure I can find somewhere that you did not meet project specs... Or can I see your documentation proving that you provided the exact ASTM/ACI spec on XXX (you choose, conc mix, w/c ratio, anchor bolt)." Or ask them if they want you to go check tolerances. Any of those will result in more time and cost to each of the contractors than a box of nuts.

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

mlhmb: Not the most ethical approach offered, but probably just about the most effective.

Now, once any small issue comes up with your design, please pick what you think it the likely reaction:

- Contrator helps you in good faith to maintain relationship.
- Contractor finds the closest bus (read: Owner) to push you in front of...
- Contractors back each other up against their new common enemy, ie: You.
- Contractors have it in for you and make you day just peachy on site.
- Contractors warn other contractors how hard you are to work with and this negatively impacts your image in your local market.

Hint: You can pick more than one correct answer, but you don't get to pick the one that appears to "not belong".

All kidding aside, I have used similar threats myself many times, but *always* when it was against a party who where not meeting a clear and unobjectionable contract/standard of practice requirement.

It is just too big a stick for a bucket of shims/bolts/whatever. And sorry if I've gone off on you, but I had one of my staff try to extort the right behaviour out of a contractor against my specific advice and it has come home to roost on us in a big way. I mention this because you are getting an unfare reaction from me based on my own recent experience... I assure you that all of the consequences listed are far easier to have happen than you think.

We need the contractor's good will. We need the owner's good will. We need all other allied professional's (Arch, Int. Designer, Costing, etc) good will.

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

Im with others, if not in the spec, or draiwngs, the erector bid it on means and methods correct? Without leveling nuts and shims, how were you going to do it?

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

i'm with TLHS ...

this is a small detail that was overlooked in the contract paperwork 'cause both parties considered it was understood "of course, you're doing it" they both said.

intuitive (to me) the guy who spec's one side of the joint spec's the other side. At a minimum they should have told the other side "since we're not contracted to provide the other side hardware, you should procure nuts XYZ to fit our installation". For us we'll make the interface the fastener hole, carefully controlled in space and geometry (diameter and thickness), so whowever is providing the nut, also provides the bolt (to fit).

if it is a big deal from the cost persepective and it was overlooked in the contracts then i think that omission needs to be corrected ... change to contract to include the nuts, or buy them yourself.

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

The thing which some are misinterpreting here is whether or not levelling nuts are required at all. In most cases, just as in the OP's job, the choice as to how to set columns is left to the contractor. The erector can do his work without the nuts, but he wants to do it his way, so he should just get on with it. Some engineers prohibit setting columns with the use of levelling nuts...what would this guy do then?

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

It looks like the owner is taking on the role of Constructor... he should be greatful that he doesn't have a third sub-trade... the steel erector <G>.

I would insist that the steel fabricator provide the levelling nuts and shims; you are on pretty strong grounds in North America.

This is a call by the owner since he is taking on this role. He's put himself in a position where he many not only be responsible for coordinating the work, but he may be liable for safety issues.

Dik

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

Dik: Agreed. Note that in Ontario you can substitute "will be" for your "may be" regarding the Owner's liability as Constructor...

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

The OP said the argument was between the concrete contractor and the steel erector.

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

It's ironic that at least three parties are arguing about nuts that do not appear on the drawings or in either of the relevant contracts, as if they're going to appear out of the ether.


A story about that, sort of:
For my second job, I had designed an assembly of which an o-ring was a relevant part. I caught a machinists' union member attempting to seat the associated parts with a hammer. We had words.

I had assumed that everyone knew that you greased an o-ring when you assembled it.
My adversary argued that grease was not indicated in the BOM, and not noted on the drawing; therefore he was assembling, or attempting to assemble, the parts, with a dry o-ring. ... which caused the assembly to not assemble as intended and not work as intended.

I was wrong.

Since then, my drawings have included a couple of microliters of grease for each o-ring, and a drop of Loctite for each threaded fastener where appropriate, so there would be no doubt about what has to be supplied. Who supplies the stuff is someone else's problem, but at least if it's on the drawing, the need is documented.


Here, in this instance, it appears that the involved parties have differing expectations about who is to supply what, and apparently a standards setting body has managed to confuse the issue, but in my world, I have to agree with that old machinist; if it ain't on the drawing, nobody is expected to supply it, and nobody is expected to install it.


On the other hand, my sons are lawyers, and you guys are just providing more work for them, so have at it...



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

But Mike, this is different from your o-ring. These nuts are not required at all...unless the erector wants to use them as an aid in setting the columns.

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

I was aware of the OP... but, there really isn't much of an argument... just a matter of informing the steel fabricator that he should be providing the accessories and if not, then the owner should and take other actions... including putting the fabricator on notice for any delays.

The other info added was to let the OP know that there are other issues that could be problematic and I agree with CEL... played engineer in Ontario for nearly 30 years...

Dik

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

Leveling nuts are a means and methods issue regarding setting the steel. It's by far the simplest, most cost effective way, but the column wasn't designed uniquely because it's designed on leveling nuts versus not. In that respect then, it's on the erector/fabricator to supply them to the contractor or the concrete guy should have a guarantee that the top of his piers will be within leveled tolerance (not likely:))

PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

Ah, notice for damages... Work for Mike's kids!

Being "new" around here, I'll have to ask whether or not it is inappropriate for me to ask you where you worked in Ontario Dik?

Hokkie's right as well, of course, but there is no way of knowing which way any adjudicator (mediator, arbitrator, the courts) will side. I often think it has more to do with the amount of money a side puts into the argument than the validity of any arguments. *sigh*

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

Toronto and environs... My first major project when I moved to Toronto was the Cornwall Centre in Regina... go figgur!

Dik

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

The general contractor is just sitting back and enjoying it while you work out his problems. Hokie is right, don't let the general get out of his obligations. You probably didn't specify explicitly who was providing most things (fabricator supplies the steel, erector provides the cranes...). You just provide the end state and the general figures out how they want to divy up the work.

Don't get sucked into the arguement, place it back on the general.

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

I gather it's the client that is playing General...

Dik

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

When I call out leveling nuts for column erection, I always note that they should be welded to the A.B’s., by the fabricator, in the controlled conditions of the shop. That way they all end up at exactly the same height/elevation from the top of the A.B’s, and can’t get lost in the field. If they don’t want leveling nuts, just put them down 6-8" from the top of the A.B., then they will be out of everyone’s way. You could just tell the fabricator or erector that if they want to be paid, they should send a free bucket of leveling bolts with their first invoice. smile

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

3
dhengr, welding levelling nuts to the anchor bolts defeats the purpose. They are used for adjustment.

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

Hokie, was going to make the same comment. I'm not sure what the best purpose of this would be.

PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

Hokie:
I was just trying to get you a few more LPS. Sorry for the attempt at humor. Does it take two smiley faces to indicate humor and silliness these days?

Actually I was in complete agreement with your 16JAN14, 18:52 post. I hope you intended your clarification so that no body would take my post as being serious. Without a sense of humor or an interest in teaching non-engineers, and even non-tech practitioners how to pretend to be engineers, this place has kinda become a desert when it comes to the blooming of interesting topics and questions.

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

Quote:

Does it take two smiley faces to indicate humor and silliness these days?

I think this would be better hammer

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

weld leveling nuts... good one.. and in the shop!


RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

I apologize, dhengr. Profusely. Will blame it on the weather here. Has been hot, too hot.

RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?

We've had -30C stuff for the last week or so... quit winin' about the heat <G>...

Dik

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