Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
(OP)
I am involved in a project that has a concrete contractor and a steel erector as two separate contracts. Neither contract specifies who is to provide leveling nuts or shims. In my mind the answer is obvious that the steel erector is to provide the leveling nuts or shims because they have a choice on how to set the level and don't have to use one over the other (shims or nuts). The concrete contractor provided the anchor rods and one nut, which is what the drawings require. The drawings also show 1.5" grout space between concrete and baseplate. The steel erector is saying that they can't install the columns until the concrete contractor provides him with leveling nuts. I tried looking in the code of standard practice, but don't see anything there. Is there a standard that says the erector is to provide these? Or is it the concrete contractor's responsibility? Or is it the responsibility of the owner to make sure that the contract specifies one way or the other?






RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
If the problem ever gets anywhere near a judge, you'll wish you had just gone to Grainger and bought the damn nuts with your own money.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
Ask your erector what his plan was to set and level the columns. If there are no shims or leveling plates or extra nuts shown on the documents, what did he base his bid upon? Other than a gotcha.
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
The amount of time you're going to charge arbitrating this is going to be more than the cost of the nuts and if this sets you back at all in schedule it's probably not worth it.
While issuing the change you can straight up tell the owner and contractor that you believe that it's already their responsibility but are doing this for pragmatic reasons.
However, if it isn't clear in the documents, it's also a good lesson learned for the future.
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
This is probably something that should be specified more clearly on the contract documents in the future I guess.
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
Now, once any small issue comes up with your design, please pick what you think it the likely reaction:
- Contrator helps you in good faith to maintain relationship.
- Contractor finds the closest bus (read: Owner) to push you in front of...
- Contractors back each other up against their new common enemy, ie: You.
- Contractors have it in for you and make you day just peachy on site.
- Contractors warn other contractors how hard you are to work with and this negatively impacts your image in your local market.
Hint: You can pick more than one correct answer, but you don't get to pick the one that appears to "not belong".
All kidding aside, I have used similar threats myself many times, but *always* when it was against a party who where not meeting a clear and unobjectionable contract/standard of practice requirement.
It is just too big a stick for a bucket of shims/bolts/whatever. And sorry if I've gone off on you, but I had one of my staff try to extort the right behaviour out of a contractor against my specific advice and it has come home to roost on us in a big way. I mention this because you are getting an unfare reaction from me based on my own recent experience... I assure you that all of the consequences listed are far easier to have happen than you think.
We need the contractor's good will. We need the owner's good will. We need all other allied professional's (Arch, Int. Designer, Costing, etc) good will.
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
this is a small detail that was overlooked in the contract paperwork 'cause both parties considered it was understood "of course, you're doing it" they both said.
intuitive (to me) the guy who spec's one side of the joint spec's the other side. At a minimum they should have told the other side "since we're not contracted to provide the other side hardware, you should procure nuts XYZ to fit our installation". For us we'll make the interface the fastener hole, carefully controlled in space and geometry (diameter and thickness), so whowever is providing the nut, also provides the bolt (to fit).
if it is a big deal from the cost persepective and it was overlooked in the contracts then i think that omission needs to be corrected ... change to contract to include the nuts, or buy them yourself.
Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
I would insist that the steel fabricator provide the levelling nuts and shims; you are on pretty strong grounds in North America.
This is a call by the owner since he is taking on this role. He's put himself in a position where he many not only be responsible for coordinating the work, but he may be liable for safety issues.
Dik
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
A story about that, sort of:
For my second job, I had designed an assembly of which an o-ring was a relevant part. I caught a machinists' union member attempting to seat the associated parts with a hammer. We had words.
I had assumed that everyone knew that you greased an o-ring when you assembled it.
My adversary argued that grease was not indicated in the BOM, and not noted on the drawing; therefore he was assembling, or attempting to assemble, the parts, with a dry o-ring. ... which caused the assembly to not assemble as intended and not work as intended.
I was wrong.
Since then, my drawings have included a couple of microliters of grease for each o-ring, and a drop of Loctite for each threaded fastener where appropriate, so there would be no doubt about what has to be supplied. Who supplies the stuff is someone else's problem, but at least if it's on the drawing, the need is documented.
Here, in this instance, it appears that the involved parties have differing expectations about who is to supply what, and apparently a standards setting body has managed to confuse the issue, but in my world, I have to agree with that old machinist; if it ain't on the drawing, nobody is expected to supply it, and nobody is expected to install it.
On the other hand, my sons are lawyers, and you guys are just providing more work for them, so have at it...
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
The other info added was to let the OP know that there are other issues that could be problematic and I agree with CEL... played engineer in Ontario for nearly 30 years...
Dik
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
PE, SE
Eastern United States
"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
Being "new" around here, I'll have to ask whether or not it is inappropriate for me to ask you where you worked in Ontario Dik?
Hokkie's right as well, of course, but there is no way of knowing which way any adjudicator (mediator, arbitrator, the courts) will side. I often think it has more to do with the amount of money a side puts into the argument than the validity of any arguments. *sigh*
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
Dik
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
Don't get sucked into the arguement, place it back on the general.
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
Dik
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
PE, SE
Eastern United States
"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
I was just trying to get you a few more LPS. Sorry for the attempt at humor. Does it take two smiley faces to indicate humor and silliness these days?
Actually I was in complete agreement with your 16JAN14, 18:52 post. I hope you intended your clarification so that no body would take my post as being serious. Without a sense of humor or an interest in teaching non-engineers, and even non-tech practitioners how to pretend to be engineers, this place has kinda become a desert when it comes to the blooming of interesting topics and questions.
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
I think this would be better
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
RE: Who provides leveling nuts or shims?
Dik