Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
(OP)
Why would anybody want asbestos in their new construction materials when it isn't necessary?
The liability is on the property owner, and the regulations stop short of eliminating the problem from everyday building materials like floor tiles, insulation, etc.
Imported construction materials are more likely to contain asbestos.
Do any material manufacturing companies label their products as "asbestos free".
Is there a "green list" of suppliers?
The liability is on the property owner, and the regulations stop short of eliminating the problem from everyday building materials like floor tiles, insulation, etc.
Imported construction materials are more likely to contain asbestos.
Do any material manufacturing companies label their products as "asbestos free".
Is there a "green list" of suppliers?





RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
My question is this -- which new construction materials have a clean bill of health given that the end-use buyer is responsible for the asbestos? Mineralogists and physicians greatly disagree on the health risks while the EPA has inconsistent policies -- partly due to court decisions.
The mesothelioma risk for smokers exposed to asbestos could be as much as 90x greater than smokers not exposed. Reports are inconsistent. Consider that smokers are already about 5 times more likely to develop lung cancer than non-smokers. They've already sued the tobacco industry in class action lawsuits.
Given the risks, who wants to manufacture asbestos-containing construction materials? Consider that WR Grace went bankrupt in 2011 from asbestos litigation. That stopped them. What about others?
http://www.asbestos.com/companies/wr-grace.php
"Many of the asbestos-containing products manufactured by Grace were intended for use in the construction industry. Aside from specialty building materials, the asbestos-containing products manufactured by the company also included fireproofing materials, plaster, and roofing and deck materials, as well as additives for concrete and cement."
"Many of the products the company manufactured were destined to be exported, taking advantage of the company's wide-ranging interests around the globe."
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
Most products manufactured today do not contain asbestos. In the industrialized world, asbestos was phased out of building products mostly in the 1970's with most of the remainder phased out by the 1980's. Asbestos containing building materials in residences includes a variety of products, such as: stiple used in textured walls and ceilings; drywall joint filler compound; asbestos contaminated vermiculite, vinyl floor tile; vinyl sheet flooring; window putty; mastic; cement board; furnace tape; and stucco. Asbestos was widely used in roofing materials, mainly corrugated asbestos cement roof sheets and asbestos shingles sometimes called transite. Other sources of asbestos containing materials include fireproofing and acoustic materials.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbestos
"In 1989 the EPA issued the Asbestos Ban and Phase Out Rule which was subsequently overturned in the case of Corrosion Proof Fittings v. EPA, 947 F.2d 1201 (5th Cir. 1991). This ruling leaves many consumer products that can still legally contain trace amounts of asbestos. For a clarification of products which legally contain asbestos, read the EPA's clarification statement.[86]"
The EPA's so-called "clarification statement" does everything but settle the matter:
http://toxics.supportportal.com/link/portal/23002/...
"you may learn more about whether the replacement materials you intend to install might possibly contain asbestos by reading the product labels, calling the manufacturer, or by asking if your retailer can provide you with the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for the product(s) in question."
Therefore, asbestos is not legally excluded from NEW construction materials. It looks like 100% asbestos is legal. A manufacturing company can produce all the asbestos construction materials they want, then sell it to end users that are unaware. The asbestos materials are the sole responsibility of the end-users by law, and ignorance of the problem is no defense in court. That's how the system works.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
The EPA leads me to believe that. They warned me to check all new materials for asbestos.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
from the EPA FAQs:
"Since asbestos was banned, do I need to be worried about products on the market today containing asbestos?
On July 12, 1989, the EPA issued a final rule under Section 6 of the Toxic Substances Control Act (TSCA) banning most asbestos-containing products in the United States. In 1991, the rule was vacated and remanded by the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. As a result, most of the original ban on the manufacture, importation, processing, or distribution in commerce for most of the asbestos-containing product categories originally covered in the 1989 final rule was overturned. Only the bans on corrugated paper, rollboard, commercial paper, specialty paper, and flooring felt and any new uses of asbestos remained banned under the 1989 rule. Although most asbestos containing products can still legally be manufactured, imported, processed and distributed in the U.S., according to the U.S. Geological Survey, the production and use of asbestos has declined significantly."
Asbestos mining (in the USA) declined and that's good for the health of the miners. On the other hand, the asbestos ban on imports was overturned. The EPA can't stop someone from importing end-use materials loaded with asbestos. American Corporations that produce asbestos-tainted materials aren't liable for the end-use either. It's a moral hazard. I asked a lawyer -- even homeowners are liable for their own asbestos. It doesn't matter who made it or who sold it to them.
Someone please tell me why they believe new building materials are "asbestos free", "safe", and free of litigation risks. Thank you.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
The EPA is only responsible for developing and enforcing regulations necessary to protect the general public from exposure to airborne contaminants that are known to be hazardous to human health.
Product liability laws will cause asbestos containing products to be removed from the marketplace.
Should you find asbestos in one of your building materials, feel free to sue the supplier.
If you have concerns about asbestos in products, you can also require the supplier to certify that the product in question is asbestos free.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
Name one new building material that can not legally contain asbestos and please show me the regulation. I've spent many hours to find even one. Can I pay you for this?
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
The Washington State Department of Labor and Industries
Hazard Alert: Asbestos Hazards in New Materials
*****Asbestos Containing Materials Legal for Sale****
The following products containing asbestos may be sold in the United States. This list is not comprehensive.
Automotive brakes and other friction materials
Machinery gaskets
Asphaltic and bitumous roofing materials and pipeline coatings
Cement asbestos products
Mineral products with naturally occurring contamination
Raw asbestos for use in manufacturing
Asbestos hazards may or may not be labeled
Product information on labels and Material Safety Data Sheets will often have information on asbestos content when it is greater than 1% of a material. However, the lack of asbestos information on the label may not always mean of a lack of asbestos. When handling products that may contain asbestos, the presence of asbestos should be assumed unless the manufacturer or an appropriate testing laboratory has specifically certified the material as asbestos free.
The asbestos content of a material and airborne asbestos in the work environment are not directly related. Factors such as how well the asbestos fibers are bound in the material and work practices can affect exposure levels. Airborne exposure monitoring is often the only way to determine the actual exposure level.
Building and facility owners are required to assess asbestos hazards
Building and facility owners are required to assess asbestos hazards prior to renovation, maintenance or demolition work. A written report must be given to contractors and others who work around any asbestos project. This requirement applies to newly installed materials as well"
The asbestos content of a material and airborne asbestos in the work environment are not directly related. The statement seems straight forward enough to me. The regulations are based on concentration which is not a safe assumption according to the hazard alert. Consider that 35 million residences already have Zonolite insulation containing asbestos, the owners are liable, and they're exposed to carcinogens. I'm glad it's not me.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
I discussed this with an environmental lawyer today. You will lose in court. The law says so.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
Very good -- that idea has merits. You'll need a long-term record-keeping system, and someone to maintain that system. It sounds like library work.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
Therefore, a property owner should assume any new building material contains asbestos unless someone can prove otherwise. Manufacturing companies make mistakes. It sounds like the only bullet-proof approach is to test the construction materials. This is getting crazy. Why am I testing for asbestos to make sure it is safe? That's why you have regulations. Where are they?
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
1. Asbestos exposure for workers involved in producing ACM or in the installation of friable ACM was bad and created numerous health problems, most of which were not isolated to ACM alone. Manufacturers have been sued and have paid tremendous amounts of money and continue to pay. It would be ludicrous to think that they would further engage in such manufacturing. It makes no economic sense which is their driver.
2. Incidental asbestos exposure occurs daily for most people and the exposures are non-consequential. I'm reasonably sure that there has not been a case of asbestos health issues for incidental exposure to asbestos.
3. The removal of asbestos from many materials was a good thing. Did it go far enough? Perhaps/Perhaps not. Its effect is not reasonably quantifiable.
4. Does the allowance of asbestos in certain current materials place the public at risk? No. The "public" is not and has not been at risk from asbestos. The removal of asbestos from public buildings and schools was precautionary. ACM remains in many buildings and as those buildings are demolished, provisions are in place to prevent the release of asbestos fibers into the air.
Yes, there are materials that are labeled as "asbestos free". One common one is roof flashing cement.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
http://www.nhmrc.gov.au/your-health/asbestos-relat...
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
https://www.google.com/#q=asbestos+free+products&a...
Here is an example of what you will find:
"After 1970, Gold Bond Building Products were asbestos-free."
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
Woody PE says: Ron, that's all at the manufacturing level and it has nothing to do with the end-use customer. To be honest, it makes no sense to manufacture ANYTHING in the USA anymore regardless of what it is, and it's leaving this country fast. So, when 3rd world countries manufacture asbestos contaminated goods -- who is going to tell us? Can you trust their building materials. I can tell you for certain as a mechanical engineer -- I DO NOT TRUST PROOF STRENGTH RATINGS ON FOREIGN MADE BOLTS. Should we expect anything better on asbestos-contaminated goods? How about the black mold contaminated wall-board from China? Consider that Russia is the #1 asbestos producing country in the world. Chernobyl met their standards. What's it to them if america gets their asbestos?
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
In the USA there is a James Hardie plant located very close to Virginia Tech.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
WoodyPE says -- Any corporation with "deep pockets" is a law-suit magnet for ANYTHING anymore.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
WoodyPE says: Only 1% of all wild mushrooms contain toxins, and they aren't labelled either....When picking wild mushrooms assume they contain poisons unless it can be proven otherwise.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
Are there any Washington State engineers on this forum that can speak to this requirement for new materials? As an engineer, I assess building materials before I use them instead of waiting until they're installed to see if they'll work or not. I've never regretted it either.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
I was aware of the James Hardie plant in Virginia, as well as several others in the US. That's a good thing, I think.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
WoodyPE says, Can you find a physician that agrees on a "safe" level for any type of asbestos exposure? Chrysotile asbestos is supposedly safe and comprises more than 80% of the asbestos already in place. I watched a physician talk about all the lung cancer cases he sees where the patients have chrysotile in their lungs from supposedly "safe" work environments. Shouldn't we trust our health to doctors? Asbestos mortality statistics confirm their view:
Mortality statistics from the Chrysotile Institute
http://www.chrysotile.com/en/sc_publi/he-research....
Table 1-1
Estimated lifetime cancer risks for different scenarios
of exposure to airborne asbestos fibers (a)
Conditions: Premature cancer deaths (lifetime risks) per million exposed persons
Lifetime, continuous outdoor exposure
€ 0.00001 f/mL from birth (rural) 4
€ 0.0001 f/mL from birth (high urban) 40
Exposure in a school containing ACM, from age 5 to 18 years (180 days/year, 5 hours/day)
€ 0.0005 f/mL (average) (b) 6
€ 0.005 f/mL (high) (b) 60
Exposure in a public building containing ACM age 25 to 45 years (240 days/year, 8 hours/day)
€ 0.0002 f/mL (average) (b) 4
€ 0.002 f/mL (high) (b) 40
Occupational exposure from age 25 to 45
€ 0.1 f/mL (current occupational levels) (c) 2,000
€ 10 f/mL (historical industrial exposures) 200,000
(a) This table represents the combined risk (average for males and females) estimated for lung cancer and mesothelioma for building occupants exposed to airborne asbestos fibers under the circumstances specified. These estimates should be interpreted with caution because of the reservations concerning the reliability of the estimates of average levels and of the risk assessment models summarized in Chapter 8.
b) The "average" levels for the sampled schools and buildings represent the means of building averages for the buildings reviewed herein (Figure 1-1). The "high" levels for schools and public buildings, shown as 10 times the average, are approximately equal to the average airborne levels of asbestos recorded in approximately 5 percent of schools and buildings with asbestos-containing materials (ACM) (see Chapters 4 and 8). If the single highest sample value were excluded from calculation of the average indoor asbestos concentration in public and commercial buildings, the average value is reduced from 0.00021 to 0.00008 f/mL, and the lifetime risk is approximately halved.
(c) The concentration shown (0.1 f/mL) represents the permissible exposure limit (PEL) proposed by the U.s. Occupational Safety and Health Administration. Actual worker exposure, expected to be lower, will depend on a variety of factors including work practices, and use and efficiency of respiratory protective equipment.
American doctors accept a one in 10,000 risk of error when they treat their patients. That's 100 patients in a million that could be malpractice litigants. Current occupational levels allow 2,000 in a million. I ask, would you want a doctor that treats you to that standard? That's one serious error for every 500 patients. Obviously a physician that is still in business CAN NOT agree with a "don't worry, be happy" approach to asbestos.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
Yes mesothelioma caused by asbestos is bad. However, mesothelioma (or, more precisely, malignant mesothelioma) is a rare form of cancer.
It is estimated that of the roughly 150,000 people who die each day across the globe, about two thirds (100,000 per day)die of age-related causes. In industrialized nations the proportion is much higher, reaching 90%. Thus, albeit indirectly, biological aging is by far the leading cause of death.
An engineer has to have the ability to put risks in perspective; understand the complexities of risk problems; and understand the rationale of risk assessment and management. Engineers should know that there are no zero-risk solutions; tradeoffs are necessary; and uncertainty cannot be avoided.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
WoodyPE: So a label requirement is just out of the question. A lot of products require caution labels, but asbestos doesn't matter. Why?
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
Only purchase asbestos-free building materials for renovations or new construction. Despite its known health hazards, asbestos materials are still being produced. In 2004, the United States used more than 3,000 metric tons of asbestos for roofing products, coatings and compounds and other industrial applications. Facility managers must specify that they want asbestos-free materials when placing or approving orders for building materials. Be sure to verify manufacturer’s certifications before making the purchase.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
December 26, 2007
"Maryland schools officials say they could be forced to test every new tile, pipe or wall put into school buildings for asbestos, under new guidance on Environmental Protection Agency regulations."
"After the Maryland Department of the Environment asked the EPA a "clarifying question," Maryland schools were notified in September 2006 that the manufacturer's sheets could not be used to determine whether products contain asbestos, said EPA spokeswoman Donna Heron."
"Schools say that requiring them, instead of the manufacturer, to determine whether a product contains asbestos is an unfair burden."
"You can still buy stuff that may or may not be labeled," Knight said. "A lot of stuff from Southeast Asia is not labeled."
"The new structure, which does not allow for material safety data sheets, has huge consequences on school systems and buildings," Lever said."
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
And somebody did a terrible job of assessing the risk. A doctor that makes a fatal mistake on one out of every 500 patients is not a good doctor. Looking at the mortality data (again), it's ok for one out of 500 employees to die from the current workplace asbestos standards. Doing the math 2,000 employees per million = one in 500.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
if you wish to outlaw asbestos on your projects than do it. but being argumentative on this site will not help. perhaps if you had a new question to ask you might get another answer that will suit you. At this point however, your multiple posting is getting a tad obnoxious. I believe you have made your point, whatever it is.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
http://ecmweb.com/news/osha-will-hold-live-web-cha...
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
My apologies for sounding obnoxious to you or anyone else.
What can I say about asbestos prevention according to the Tipsters?
I'll be gone before it matters anyway, but I'd like to help the grand kids.
Maybe someday they'll understand what went wrong.
I recommend deleting the whole thread.
Adieu and have a great day.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
Maybe we can hold on to this thread just a little longer.
Mineral wool is a good replacement in high temperature applications.
I have a star and other rewards for you:
OSHA Data for silicate fiber exposure
OSHA warning label requirements for silicate fibers
CDC NIOSH PEL for High Temperature Mineral Wool Insulation
CDC NIOSH PEL for Asbestos Fibers
Both materials break into fibers 40 um or less. Mineral silicates turn to gel in the presence of moisture and they dissolve away, but asbestos fibers remain to kill lung cells and provide a favorable environment for lung cancer. The allowable PEL for silicone-mineral fibers is 30 times higher than asbestos fibers. Exposures from both types of materials have been compared. Remarkably smokers with asbestos exposure have a risk up to 90 times higher than their smoking counterpart that isn't exposed to asbestos.
Here's a journal abstract from Science Daily: Mystery Unraveled: How Asbestos Causes Cancer
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
Lung Cancer is not the same as mesothelioma, and it is also caused by asbestos.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
New insulation coming from Canada. New floor tiles coming from Mexico.
@ greenone said: Is this in the US?
Yes, End-use buyers are purchasing and installing these materials today. They are unaware.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
World Bank Group Report
2.3. Increasing Use of Asbestos Fiber
There is evidence that, after a decline in the 1990s, the use of asbestos fiber is increasing
globally. A recent study [16] shows that a 59% increase in metric tons was consumed in 12
countries from 2000 to 2004.
16 R. Virta, US Geological Survey, 2007.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
Asbestos is low tech but it's cheap and that's why it's still in the marketplace -- because the signal is not there for the consumer to drive it out of the marketplace. Mineral wool works quite well for insulation, and carbon fiber is much stronger.
If you aren't involved with asbestos then good for you, but the laws say you can't ignore it whenever you renovate, maintain, or demolish a building.
35 countries in the world banned asbestos in new building materials including many in the EU and Australia.
50 years from now we'll probably be doing asbestos inspections, keeping inventory of asbestos in buildings, training employees on asbestos dangers, and so on, while it's no longer relevant to the rest of the world.
I hope for a better future than that. Please forgive me.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
WooyPE says: There must be something wrong with the binder-matrix because the material properties for asbestos are inferior to the commonly available substitutes. Please compare:
Ultimate Tensile Strength Comparison:
Chrysotile Asbestos: 3100 MPa
Spun Glass: 4710 MPA
Maximium Temperature Rating:
Chrysotile Asbestos: 1382 degree F
Spun Glass: 3000 degree F
Thermal Conduction:
Chrysotile Asbestos 0.09 BTU/(ft hr degree F)
Glass Wool 0.02 BTU/ (ft hr degree F)
The substitute materials also have carcinogen risks, but asbestos is 30 times worse as a carcinogen. Modern technology is wonderful isn't it?
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
Independent asbestos inspectors lead me to believe that. Apparently I'm on the wrong forum because the Civil/Environmental group is clueless on this issue.
"woodype
if you wish to outlaw asbestos on your projects than do it. but being argumentative on this site will not help. perhaps if you had a new question to ask you might get another answer that will suit you. At this point however, your multiple posting is getting a tad obnoxious. I believe you have made your point, whatever it is."
Go ahead and put asbestos tainted materials in your residence and workplace if you wish. Don't expect me as a property owner or any of my clients to buy them from you. Good day to you too sir.
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
German scientist: "I'm well aware of the risks of Asbestos but I didn't know that it is still used and allowed in the US?? Also thought that it was banned in the 80s.."
WoodyPE: Who do you think I'd hire to mitigate asbestos?
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/17/landscape...
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
RE: Controlling Asbestos in New Construction Materials
It would be an improvement if asbestos fibers required the same labeling as mineral wool fibers.
I'm concerned that the asbestos regulations will be tightened again. Regulatory changes that include asbestos were proposed in the 2014 budget, but I don't know the details.
Most other developed countries banned this stuff decades ago.