Did not receive the raise i wanted, now what?

72

"What should I do?" How about "grow the hell up"? You got a 6% (or some number greater than 4%) raise last year and this year you are offended by 4%? Offended by someone giving you a raise that is just about twice last year's consumer price index increase so your disposable income increased by about a percent.

So, in your mind, 6% last year, should equate to 8% this year, 10% next year, etc. until in 10 years you are assured of getting a 26% raise? On that schedule if you started at $80k, then in year 20 you would be making $6.3 million a year. Nice work if you can get it, but you can't.

For the rest of your career you will probably see 0-6% annual raises. 4% is in the top half of that range. If you enjoy your work, then the raise is just gravy. If you hate your job and only stay because of the money you are making then you are a whore, and probably an incompetent one at that.

I know this seems very harsh. I don't apologize for that. I have seen too many young Engineers sour their lives by similar analysis to the one you made. You are in complete control of your attitude. If you looked at your 4% raise and 4% bonus as found money, and got on with your life then you would be happy. If you think of an entitlement of a bigger percentage raise every year then you will just be miserable. Stop making yourself unhappy over what is actually a pretty silly matter. The conversation with your boss should have been "cool, can I buy you a beer after work?". "Sit him down and express how you feel"? Give me a break. Whenever an Engineer working for me started telling me about his feelings I started looking for a place to park him on someone else.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

It does seem that there could be worse bosses....

Am i really expecting too much? Honest question, not being sarcastic or anything. I know it shouldn't be about the money and i do enjoy this job but i feel at this rate i will not be going anywhere, financially. With the current housing market in NYC its very hard to strive here with this pay level. Which is why i want to get passed this salary "range", and i feel stuck. I know of a few coworkers that are about 5 years ahead of me and are making close to or at the $100k/yr mark. From what i can see i am working every bit as hard as they are. Which is why this raise bothered me since at this rate i will reach where they're at by the time i am 40 yrs of age atleast. Again like i said, i know its more about whether i enjoy my work rather than how much i am paid (Who would want to work hard and be paid pennies? Relative to cost of living in your area that is) but when i see friends/family in the medical field making twice what i am making, and working less hours it is really demoralizing. And no i will not switch to those fields to make more money since i don't enjoy that line of work. It just worries me because i know the potential of what an engineer can earn, but i don't feel i am on the right track to get there. So i guess what you are all saying is to just take this raise with a grain of salt and keep on truckin?

If you are chasing a salary for what your friends are making or for the house you want to live in - you will never be satisfied. You will always have friends/acquaintences/coworkers/etc. who seem to be making more than you are. You will always see people that are making more than you are, live in better houses, drive better cars, etc.

Unless you stop competing with everybody else and start competing with yourself (do the best you can, learn as much as you can, etc.) you will never be happy.

Since you work for a small private company, maybe they did not have as good of a year, maybe there was not as much money to pass out raises like they did previously. Maybe there were other employees who worked harder/better than you did.

You've been with your company two years and have received what many would consider good raises. So you really have no basis for what the company policy is. Talk to your boss and ask him/her how raises are determined. Ask him if they are based on merit or just occupying a cube. Ask him some avenues you could do to make your raises better. Some ideas are bringing in more business, making budgets, having fewer mistakes.

Give it a few years and examine your priorities and if you still dont like it, look elsewhere.

Something you might want to consider is comparing salary vs. cost of living. I work in the MEP field in the Midwest USA and if the engineers here got $100K after 8 years, they would be very pleased, even with no raises.

Yep, that's my thought with one addition -- take the raise, be thankful it's not zero, and keep on truckin'...

Most often, in my experience, an engineer gets a big pay jump only when he or she is jumpin' jobs. One to six percent is the burden of the market.

Best to you,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies

The difference between what an engineer with 7 years' experience and an engineer with 2 years' experience is astronomical. Your value to the company is not how hard you work, it's what you produce. I will join the chorus that you should be grateful, not bitter, over a 4% raise. The economy is getting a little better, but we are not far removed from a time when an entry-level engineer should be grateful to just have a job. If you're having trouble making ends meet in New York, then move out of New York. You could move to a smaller city where you might make 80% of your current salary but at 50% the cost of living, so you would come out ahead.

Once again, David has put rounds on target.

Two years into the job, a 4% raise (beats the CPI, which the real value here), a 4% bonus, AND also given in a sucky economy with high unemployment rate, and you're offended? Wow. Gonna be a tough life for you. It seems to me that your boss is trying to keep you with the firm. Hope you learn to recognize it and be a little more appreciative, and that the damage isn't already done. Just wait until mid-career when the salary curve flattens out with raises & bonuses that barely match the CPI.

If your performance was super duper outstanding, you walked on water, turned lead into gold, and saved the company a few billion dollars, then yeah perhaps you may be due more.

The fact of the matter is that choosing engineering as a career is not the path to massive wealth, but a comfortable lifestyle.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com

Be sure you understand how your company's salary and bonus program work. You would probably be better served to know what you need to consistently produce and what behaviours you need to consistently exihibit to get the next promotion.

Good luck,
Latexman

Technically, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water.

Just do your job the best you can. Be happy you are not on the street.
Ego can slow a career.

Chris
SolidWorks 13
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

"Should i sit my boss down... "

Your word selection is very telling. Maybe you should sit down with your boss and discuss it, but no I wouldn't recommend "sitting your boss down" to explain something as if your boss were a toddler.


If 4% is offensive, I am curious what percentage would have been not offensive, what would have adequate, and what would have made you happy?

You should be offended only if the company made money and the profits did not equitably go to you, i.e., if everyone else got 10%, for example.

In this environment, one ought to consider themselves lucky to have a job at all and have a pay raise, to boot. No pay cuts, no forced furloughs, those are all positives.

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

wow!
I just got a 2.2% increase and no bonus, but I was given 5 new projects to work on. I get to keep my health insurance and yippee, now I will be fully utilized. I don't have to sit at home on furlough for the next few months!

You can understand now why products are made in China. In China, you want to complain about a raise, there is someone waiting at the door to replace you.

Chris
SolidWorks 13
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

Here is a thought. How's come you stopped at the BS? That's hardly a start these days. Your value to the company is just above zero. In the next ten years you will still be learning and being more valuable. My reaction is"gosh that's one spoiled kid". The commentators all appear to have had some years more than you and you should be thankful that they were not harsher. Their comments are from experience and that is valuable advice that many a starting engineer does not get. I'd also thank the managers of this WEB site for making this helpful advice available. I know I could have used the same help when starting.

To finalize my words, if you wish to move faster up the ladder and always be ahead of those with the same "time on the job", put in two years and get a Master's. You won't regret it. It's more fun to be In-charge than to be one of the crew. The Master's will help in that regard.

Btai88, I wouldn't be offended if I got 4%, however I would probably see that as a minimum if I felt like I deserved a raise. Anything less and it's basically like "keep it, I won't even notice the difference." The slave mentality of these "older people" is disgusting. I don't see a reason to grovel for your job. If I ever am on a board, I'm sure I will not be as greedy as these ***holes. All I recommend to you is that you optimize your returns on investment - if they cap your pay, cap your efforts such that you still get the same raise without feeling like you wasted your life.

WOW, there's a new leader in the clubhouse for most arrogant, entitled employee. Maybe you two can start a business together. You will quickly see why businesses can't give all their employees 10% raises every year.

Btai,

Some context, which is probably not evident in the earlier postings...

An "average" raise is in the 1.5-2.5% range. This pretty much covers cost of living (COL) increases and nothing else, but it's still pretty typical. If a company offers you less then COL, then you should be offended. If the company offers you 1% over, that's a typical pat on the back. If they offer you 2-2.5%+ over COL (COL is 1.5% for 2013, give or take), that's a sign they're very happy with your work. Most do not get bonuses, so be very happy you get that... 4% is a respectable bonus.

A caveat is if you were hired at below market rates. If that was the case, then a 4% raise may seem paltry, particularly if it doesn't come close to evening you up with the market. The biggest jumps in salary typically come from moving jobs, so if you are way under market, it may behoove you to consider other options. If you were hired at a fair market value and were making a good salary to begin with, I would consider yourself to be one of the lucky few and enjoy the easy ride... to complain about an above-average raise (and bonus) when already making a decent salary will not endear you to anyone, including your boss (no matter how many heart-to-hearts you have with him) and coworkers (who will label you as spoiled and put a target on your back).

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

Why is 4% insulting? Because your imagination made you believe you were worth more? Maybe such an imagination should be working at Disney.

I work at a large manufacturing company and the typical annual raise is in the 3-5% range if promotion is not involved. And that is assuming the company turned a profit. If a promotion is in order 10% is not uncommon where I work. A few years ago during the worst of the downturn there was a 5% cut for all employees, which was eventually restored when we returned to profitability. I guess I am one of the 'older people' now but believe me ww are only trying to help. I was quite fortunate when I was just out of school to be mentored by the 'older people' of the day.

Btai88,

It was a good initiative that you posted in this forum your thoughts before you really damage your career, assuming you took no action yet. Did you say something to anyone else in your Company about your thoughts ? I hope not.

Read carefully the posts from the old guys here. Sure you feel surprised now and misunderstood. Take a deep breath and relax, that's a cognitive distortion. Then starts to 'integrate' all these thoughts and adapt your attitude accordingly.

From my standpoint it is good that you are upset. It reflects somehow a character strength and potential. All you need is to focus this character strength to build competence and grow.

Good luck man.

Quote:

and my first raise was more than this

Quite possibly your first raise is what distorted your expectations.

Perhaps you were hired out of school at the company's "average starting salary". If you got a nice big raise after your first year then that is recognition that you performed at an "above average" level.

That first raise calibrated your salary relative to any other employees that started at the same time in the same position as you.

But perhaps you don't understand the concepts of "per cent" and compounding?

Starting Salary:

You: 100 pay units/time unit
Joe Average: 100 pu/tu

First Raise:

You: 10% New salary = 110 pu/tu
Joe: 5% New salary = 105 pu/tu

Second Raise:

You: 4% New salary = 114.4 pu/tu
Joe: 4% New salary = 109.2 pu/tu

Yes, in the second year you and Joe both got the same per cent increase, but your raise is bigger isn't it?

zdas04 summed it up perfectly ""What should I do?" How about "grow the hell up"? "

Here's another thought...if you want to get a bigger jump than 4%, or even 5-7%, you need to start a new job. It's just a fact that there will be very few times in your career that you get a jump bigger than 5% internally. Usually, if you are lucky, you will get cost of living and not much more. There are exceptions...taking on a management role, getting an advanced degree, getting your PE, etc. But even with these, you will be lucky to get a bigger jump than what you are seeing.

I've gotten bigger jumps than 4% a few times...but they always came with starting a new position.

Other than that, yea, welcome to the real world.

PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

Mr. 88 has not, to my knowledge, acted on his thoughts. So, it seems like a nice compliment to the people on this site that he has confided in, and trusts, the collective judgment of the esteemed members of this consortium.

I understand that it is possible to get behind the eight ball early in one's career if one does not get good pay raises - compounding and all of that. It is unknown how much Mr. 88 is currently paid. If it is $80k then he seems a little impatient, if he only makes $50k, then his feelings are a little more understandable. So Mint Julep's comments seem applicable.

I vote to cut Mr. 88 some slack. He has done nothing wrong, except to have some human emotions. It seems like there is a dogpile mentality around here at times, and I think it chases off some potentially valuable members.

Over and out

At my company the HR folks have salary ranges for all of the positions, supposedly based on what our competitors pay for the same type of work. There were initiatives to target the midpoint of such ranges. If you were on the low side of the midpoint it was more likely to get a higher percentage increase than someone on the high side. In theory the high side folks should be candidates for advancement to a position with more responsibility and a different range. Maybe your company has such a practice which may explain your first increase since you were a rookie engineer.

dvd,

I somehow tend to agree with you and that's also what I am trying to say above.

The real point is not that Mr. 88 is off the accepted norm, it is that the current economy is so uncertain and is creating an atmosphere more and more aggressive and hostile to life.
So the old paradigm that consisted to say that investment in good education is a guarantee to secure the future is less and less true. That is why Mr. 88 complaint about poor raise seems completely an anachronism.

I think this all depends on his expectations. If we haven't scared him off yet, I really do want to see his expected numbers for low-but-not-offensive, adequate, and good.

If he has numbers in mind that aren't too unrealistic, then everyone should probably back off a bit.
If he thinks anything less than 10% is an insult, then we should quit holding back.
If those expectations have yet to be formulated, then he is just whining.

Sometimes people have to learn the hard way. Sometimes people get lucky and fall ass backwards into money.

If you dont ask, you will never know. Talk with your boss, find out the reason for the lesser raise. If not good, move on to another job with a higher wage. Just dont be cocky about it.

Let us know. Perhaps a bit of spunk from all engineers would raise the bar for all of us, instead of accepting what we do.

Jim

This thread didn't go the direction I thought it would. I guess only in engineering , a profession that requires a lot of education and on the job training, should you be happy with cost of living raises.

This is reality. I'm happy with cost of living, if I keep my job.

Chris
SolidWorks 13
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

if you are going to be an employee, working at a job, than you had better get used to cost of living increases or whatever else your employer is offering. you don't have to like it or accept it and if you are capable of negotiating a larger salary, than by all means do so or find a better job. If you do not want to rely on the benevolence of your employer, than you can also start your own business. But you will need a product or service that you can sell and which is in demand. An EIT certainly does not have adequate skill nor the legal ability to offer engineering services to the public. I hear catering is very lucrative though...

"This is reality. I'm happy with cost of living, if I keep my job."

Such ambition.
--------------------------

I find it comical that zdas04 thinks 88 might be a whore; 88's not the one offering to do whatever he's told just to make a buck. I can hardly imagine what some of you would be willing to do, with a smile, if only the laws were a little different.

Anyone else look at his post history? 2 threads started:

Sept 2011 - Graduated May 2010 and can't find an engineering job
December 2013 - offended by small raise at 2nd year first engineering job

Tables can turn again very quickly, that is the message everyone is trying to get across. The most effective reality checks are usually the harsh ones.

You might consider reflecting back on that first post, then re-evaluating your situation.

Reminds me of some young recent (spoiled brat) grads at one firm. One even went so far as to say:"I wasn't hired for that __________ work", when a newer field became part of our business. This thread's advisory comments should be required reading for students in their last year, so they don't get a notion that the world owes them a living and then find out the hard way. Those that "wern't hired for the job" at my old firm found out that those who did take on the new work advanced much faster. When it came to slack times, there was no problem in selecting those that were laid off. Many years later I have noted that the go getters had their own firms or were head honchos at others.

As usual, zdas04 sugar-coated his response! He's right on target again. You have little experience, you're not licensed, you take on no personal responsibility for anything you do (from a liability standpoint)...yet you expect a greater than average raise.
Are you nuckin' futz?

A 4% raise and a 4% bonus after just 24 months on the job? In the current economic climate that's quite generous. In fact, large companies often do not give merit raises or bonuses to entry-level engineers after just 24 months, unless they were negotiated as part of an employment contract.

The more I think about it the more my response to the TS question depends on a lot of things not mentioned. Maybe, he has nice benefits that includes a pension, large amounts of profit sharing, or company ownership. Some companies pay very low base that is offset completely by a bonus if the company does well. Maybe, he started very high on the pay scale as it is because his employer really wanted him. I don't know. Maybe, some of this is about the cost of living being ridiculous in NYC. You are never going to be paid enough as an engineer in NYC to offset the cost of living. Why not move to someplace like Houston, where there is a huge demand for engineers and the cost of living is like half that of NYC?

I might be, as Ron insightfully observed above - nuckin' futz for getting into this thread, but, having a recently graduated daughter in NYC.........

I wouldn't necessarily say you're "expecting too much" (your second post I believe), but almost surely you're expecting it from the wrong source. Agreeing with almost everything said above, your present employment seems pretty good, but small businesses are run by people and there are problems and there are unforeseen losses and foreseen losses and there are gaps between jobs and there are long time clients demanding extra services and there are long time clients with their own financial problems cutting back on work and there are competitors providing lower quality output for half price ... ad-infinitum... And that's in good times.

"From what i can see i am working every bit as hard as they are..." I so hear you, but if, sitting where I am now, I had that thought in my mind, I'd shovel it out of my head as so much bs as fast as I could. I think you should work as hard as you possibly can without regard to others around you. A few days from now you'll be performing tasks almost effortlessly that you worked so hard to get done today. And then the posts above will ring truer that compensation comes more from productivity than effort. The post above about capping effort is incomprehensible to me. Yoda almost effortlessly lifted Luke's vehicle from the marsh, but it took a lot of preceding training effort.... Omg did I just say that?

There are of course always exceptions, but the compensation ladder has been pretty well outlined above...
Stay with same company, cost of living raises, low risk
Switch companies, bigger dollar jump, more risk,
Start own business, bigger dollar jump, bigger risk

It seems to me like you've got a pretty good boss. IMHO.

All, sorry for the late reply as it took me awhile to read through everything and gather my thoughts on how to respond to everyone. Some of you are very understanding and i thank you for that, while i feel some of you are a bit harsh. But i thank you anyway for providing sound advice. As of now i have not spoken with my boss and most likely will not. I knew it would be a better idea at the time to just thank my boss, take a deep breathe, and have some time to think about it.

The one that thing bothered me the most about this was how some of you are calling me a spoiled brat, like i'm a 16 year old girl that is just taking handouts and not working for anything. It seems there is quite a bit of pent up anger. Please don't... you know nothing of my work ethic or my background. I come from a poor family and had to work my weigh up just like most of you have im sure. When i'm on the job i don't just sit around and surf the web all day; i do my work, learn how to do it better (i ask my mentor & boss a million questions, and they have told me this a good thing), and ask for more. I even help the team out by assisting them when they are too overloaded, and helped mentor a new hire whenever i could. I came here to ask for advice on what steps to take, not just to vent. But maybe i am out of touch with reality, i don't know, i am still too "green" in the professional working world to know.

I will start by saying that my salary was around $50k/yr, which i would say is decent but definitely not spectacular, in NYC. So i don't understand how a 4% raise is supposed to be considered "amazing" when the typical monthly mortgage for a house here is about 150% of my monthly take home (after taxes, expenses, etc.) and rent is about 40%. And i don't want to move away as it will split my family up, which is already very small to begin with in the US. It seems you are all saying it is a lot because it is what the norm is in this field, but i am saying in terms of being able to live a quality life it is morsels. If they say engineering is one of the top paid professions, how on earth are the lesser paid professions surviving in this city? And who is even able to live here then? Only CEOs?

Here are my reasons as to why i thought i would get more (I was expecting about 8% raise, which i would have been ecstatic about):
-I worked hard and put in my time, late nights, weekends, etc.(Unpaid OT). A few of the projects were pretty major to the company in terms of revenue as well. No major mistakes as far as i know, and the client for one project i was working on even sent a thank you letter to our principals stating how good of a job we did.
-Of all the people in my department, 1 has a PE, and i am the only other person that has an FE pursuing a PE.
-I know in larger companies you do one specific task, but in mine we are doing the surveying, drafting, mark-ups, and design ourselves.
-The company is doing very well, we've been getting a lot of projects in retail, office space, data centers.
-We moved to a new but smaller office last year, the CEO bought himself a $10,000 table and apparently gets half a million bonus every year. The principals are so rich they are renovating their expensive homes just because they don't like the way it looks anymore and are driving company BMWs.
-Over the last 2 years there has been about a 15% increase in number of engineers in the office
-Gathering information from friends in the field and coworkers that were not bashful about revealing roughly what they make (I did not forcefully ask them to reveal this info, and i would never use this info as leverage). It would seem i'd need to receive about $4k raises annually to keep up with them.
-I see everywhere articles stating that my field of engineering is one of the top paid professions. It just doesn't seem to add up, as to get to the "expected" levels of pay it would take me like 20 years. But by the time i reach it, inflation would have soared and i wouldn't really be making significantly more than i do now.

As to why i am not continuing my education for a masters, it is because in this particular field i've been told that a Masters does nothing to help, so why should i shell out more time and money for a degree that won't make a difference in my field? And i don't know how a masters would help as there isn't any high level research and development going on here. No re-inventing of the wheel i guess you can say. I know of several engineers at the moment with Masters in Engineering but make the same as their peers with just a Bachelors in Engineering. Its been said that a PE is worth much more, which i am already halfway there.

Maybe i should have said instead "I got this raise, what can i do to make it better next year?" And i reiterate, its not a matter of "im only doing it for the money", i genuinely enjoy this job. Rarely do i wake up feeling like crap for having to go to work. I was hoping for an 8% raise since i have heard from a handful of my coworkers that the first year raise is supposed to be a joke, and that they have gotten better raises with each successive year. I was expecting roughly $3k-$5k increases each year before i level off near the cap of what engineers make. I don't believe it is a matter of my performance/attitude, unless my boss is just straight up lying to my face about his thoughts on me. My other coworkers seem to think i am a good person, and i don't see any reason to believe that they secretly dislike me.

Quote (Btai88)

We moved to a new but smaller office last year, the CEO bought himself a $10,000 table and apparently gets half a million bonus every year. The principals are so rich they are renovating their expensive homes just because they don't like the way it looks anymore and are driving company BMWs.

I would remove this item from your thought process when it comes to raises. What the bosses get have zero bearing on what you will be paid in almost any organization (Ben & Jerry's et. al. notwithstanding). We all hate to see the higher ups making huge bucks when we're making relatively paltry sums, but thinking that way will not help you in any fashion.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

Had you started this thread with

Quote:

"I got this raise, what can i do to make it better next year?"

the discussion would have gone MUCH differently. That statement is an acknowledgement that our actions are only one factor in the very complex mix of things that control compensation. Talking about "sitting the boss down and ..." was the trigger for the tone of the posts above.

Your life will be much happier if occasionally look at your contribution, not in terms of how many hours you spend working for your inadequate salary, but in terms of the value that the company receives from your work. Every time I've ever done that calc, it was 15-30 times the cost of having me in the organization (i.e., salary, benefits, retirement contribution, bonuses [when they happened], office space, computer, phone, administrative support, etc). That is not an unusual multiplier in a production company, but would have been very high in a service company (I hear that 3-10 is more common when all work is paid for in billable hours instead of process efficiency or increased production). In most organizations there is someone doing that calculation when they create the salary budget. I've talked to a couple of them over the years and when the multiplier is at the low end, raises are minimal and bonuses are non-existent. At the high end, the tendency is to put more money into bonuses than raises (to keep that multiplier effect mentioned above under control).

You probably are working hard. No one cares. They would rather that you got more done in fewer hours so they could raise your billing rate. At 2 years out of college, you are probably just approaching the tipping point where you are more valuable than the time that you are taking from your mentor and boss with your questions. Two years is pretty fast to reach that tipping point. When I had new Engineers in the 2-3 year range I started paying attention to the questions being asked. When the questions started getting interesting (and less redundant) I would start thinking about advancing them. As long as the questions were basic and I was being asked variations of the same question repeatedly I thought of them as a "junior" regardless of how many hours they worked a week and thought they should be happy with average compensation because their contribution was minimal in the grand scheme.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

88, in our field PE is king and until you are there, you are a dime a dozen. Whatever you decide to do, just remember that your immediate goal is to get the PE. Then what will most likely happen is that your current company will still value you as a FE but another company will see you as PE and you can make a jump at better pay and better responsibility. Right or wrong, you will see this same dilemma playing out over and over on these threads. It's just part of the profession.

Whatever you decide to do, your only real bargaining chip is getting your PE and you will gain some leverage after that to better negotiate.

PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

Wow, what a load of crap! People need to get off the high horse, stop the value judgments and anecdotes and start dealing with facts- we are engineers after all!

Ontario salary survey data- real, valid data based on thousands of respondents every year, representing both employers and employees- can be summarized as follows:

Average starting salary this year = x
Average salary of an engineer with 10-15 yrs of experience today = ~ 2x

Total cash compensation follows a similar trend, with the proportion of non salary compensation (bonus, shares etc.) growing somewhat faster than as a mere fraction of salary, but not that much in composite.

Data between those points is more or less a line, meaning that to stay on that track you need 6=10% PLUS cost of living every year on average. Nobody is going to give this to you unless you ask. And yes, it's possible to ask too often or in the wrong way.

After 10-15 yrs, salary grows ONLY at the cost of living - unless you increase in responsibility level. Then it grows at...not much more than the cost of living. So: it seems quite clear to me that many people here are applying their present inappropriately to YOUR present.

In reality, the only way you're likely to stay on that salary growth track is to change jobs at least once, taking a 20-25% pay increase in the transition. Every employer is going to want to take profit on some of their initial investment in your training- it's human nature in business.

So you either need to change jobs eventually to stay on that track, or you need an employer who understands the salary survey data and is in a business which can support the true value of your labour.

I would not suggest trying to find another job after only 2 years in, especially with an employer who is trying (4% + a bonus isn't insulting, but unless you're actually a poor performer it IS low). 5 yrs is a good point to jump. So your communications in regard to salary have to be careful, respectful and clear. As one above pointed out, asking what YOU could do to generate performance worthy of 10% next year would be a good approach.

BTW: OP, more free advice - you would do well to spend more time reading what you write before posting it. The expression is "worked my way up", not "worked my WEIGH up"!...

Stay where you are.

Work hard.

Get your PE.

See if you are significantly rewarded salarywise for getting the PE.

If after 4-5 years, you are still underpaid - start looking for another job, preferably in a high pay/low COL area.

Never* carry debt.

Sock away as much as you can. Build an emergency fund, then start filling your 401(k) or equivalent.

*Well, not truly never - but debt destroys the finances of so many people. Never carry consumer debt. Live below your means, et cetera.

Just a 7% annual raise for 10 years would double your salary. COLA not included. Sounds like 88 is close to the curve here. However, I would ask for more in the form of salary increase versus bonus which will not compound every year. Otherwise I agree with mm that the first 10 years or so is when you should expect the largest pay increases. It should be in line with increasing abilities and responsibilities. Beyond that it will require promotion into management, some sort of special expertise or company ownership if you want to continue up the ladder

So 50 does seem low for NYC, but the problem was starting salary, not the % increase. Stop mixing them up. Unfortunately not a whole lot to be done about that now, you don't have many bargaining chips. The only thing you could possibly do is let your boss know you feel like your salary on the low end, and see if in the future you can forego any bonuses in favor of higher salary increase. There are more wrong ways than right ways to approach that discussion, so tread lightly. Showing that you are more concerned with your long-term status at the company, than with a bonus, will probably be seen as a good thing. Showing that you don't expect something for nothing should also be something that your boss can respect.

If they bought a $3k table instead of a $10K table, do you think they would hand you the difference?
If the CEO drove a Chrysler instead of a BMW, you think you'd get the difference?
Why on earth are these things on your list of reasons you thought you'd get a bigger raise!? These things don't affect you; realize it and let them go.

You are not as unrealistic as your first post made it seem, but you need to get these silly "reasons" out of your head, completely.

-Do a little research to try to determine the average and median salaries for a mechanical engineer in the NYC area. I’m not in the mechanical field, but $50k seems low for the area. I made about that much starting out 7 years ago in an area with a cost-of-living that’s about 50% of NYC. NYC salaries tend to be higher, but usually not high enough to bridge the COL gap so that you would have the same standard of living as a regular city.
-If you’re having trouble making ends meet, you’ll have to do what most New Yorkers do and either live in a micro-apartment in the city or face long commutes every day. That’s just New York for you. If you’re not willing to move, just grin and bear it. Most New Yorkers I know wear it as a badge of pride ;)
-Stop comparing yourself to everyone and worrying what they make compared to you. If that’s the way you go through life, you will never be happy. There will always be someone that makes more $ than you, has a bigger house, a nicer car, etc. You could be a great engineer, but you seem to lack a general understanding of how business works. How could you ever compare what a CEO makes to a 2nd year EIT? Have you considered that maybe he earned that $500k bonus by bringing in $20 million of work into the company?
-No one is saying you have to work for a pittance. We just wanted to bring you the reality of the raise and bonus (survey says: pretty good). Your actual problem is your total salary. The only one that can fix that is you. If you’re not happy with your compensation, start looking around, see what else is out there. There are tons of design firms in NYC. You might have to get your “raise” from someone else.

I think moltenmetal strikes a note of realism

Your previous post was "Sept 2011 - Graduated May 2010 and can't find an engineering job", so you may have lowballed your salary going in, yet are now complaining that you can't see how to get the big bucks. Actions have consequences.

However what's done is done, what you need is a plan. Realistically you might get a 15%-20% pay rise if you jump ship now, but that may delay you getting your PE, which seems to be one of the better bargaining chips you can generate. So if you can delay your pursuit of BMWs and houses with 2 swimming pools (neither are worth the effort IMO) for a couple of years then I think that is your best bet.

And frankly unless you are an absolutely excellent graduate with 2 years experience, you don't really have a whole lot to bargain with at this point, you are still a net negative or zero on the day to day accounting of the company. In 2-4 years time that will change. At the moment you can ask, nicely, and hope.

One thing I've noticed is that in civil engineering there is no big jump in salaries, whereas I went from X to 2X between graduating and 3 years later, and was on 5X 5 years after that, having changed jobs twice. X was of course very small, as I was coming off a first year apprentice's pay.

Here's a graph. Every jump except 0-3 years is due to a change in job. Incidentally that is not very dissimilar to a graph of inflation.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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Generally, companies have a minimum of two years experience before advancement to the next level, i.e. engineer I starting out, engineer II at 2 years (minimum), engineer III at 4 years (minimum), etc. If you have just hit this milestone (or getting ready to), perhaps your boss is preparing to give you a promotion (with a requisite raise) to a higher level, assuming your work/attitude support that decision. That COULD be a reason for giving you a smaller end-of-year raise than you were expecting. Do you know what your requirements are for promotion? There could be any number of reasons for a lower than expected raise. If that becomes a trend over several years, then I would worry about it.

As others point out, just working hard doesn't unfortunately cut it from a business point of view - productivity is generally the true measure of whether you're worth more to the company though the definition of productivity can vary a little.

However, there can also be an element of 'popularity contest' in the assignment of compensation increases. Even in larger organizations with more formalized processes this can happen - let alone in typical smaller companies that are more flexible. Most on this site probably don't like that there is this aspect (I'm not a big fan) and would argue it shouldn't be relevant etc. but like it or not it often is an issue in getting ahead.

I don't see a problem talking to your manager about how you can be more valuable to the company etc. I'd just be careful about being too blunt about the fact you are not happy with your raise. Now I'm sure someone will give an anecdote that suggests they were once blunt with their boss and got a big raise out of it - but I wouldn't count on that being the norm.

As others hint you may want to think about improving your communication skills, you didn't come across to clearly initially and if this is also an issue at work it could be holding you back.

As to the raise itself, - what if anything does your contract or hiring letter or company policy say about such things? 4% +4% bonus by itself isn't bad. Even in your situation as a one off it's not terrible but a pattern of similar raises could eventually be an issue.

At about the 2-2.5 year mark (my memory fades) I was fortunate enough to get a very large raise, going from something like GBP 18500 to 22000 but there were a number of facets to this beyond just my performance etc.

Molten metal brings up another point.

BTW: OP, more free advice - you would do well to spend more time reading what you write before posting it. The expression is "worked my way up", not "worked my WEIGH up"!...

Do any of your jobs call for writing anything? How about speaking, as in job meetings or client contacts? Have you had a course in public speaking? How about extra phrases similar to: "You know" or "Like" instead of "such as". Leave those for basketball players.

Poor speech, as well as poor writing skills, are not helpful for engineering advancement. Matter of fact, in my experience, I have seen these negative attributes actually affect the laying off selections.

Unfortunately these factors,if present, are not easy to rectify, but with work can be improved.

For what it is worth, I reviewed my salary history. My career was spent in the upper Midwest; MI, MN, and WI; so nowhere near the COL found in NY.

With 1st full year as 1x; 2x at 5 yrs.; 4x at 14 yrs.; and 6x at 20 yrs. My last full year (39th) I was at 7.9x's.

Voluntary job changes occurred at the 3rd, 11th, and 14th years. I was downsized out after 26 years and had 3 jobs over the last 13 years.

gjc

Incidentally inflation over the last 30 years is a factor of 5 in my case, using a couple of on-line calculators. So the reality is that my current salary after 30 years is 4 times my graduation salary.

That's ... sobering

Cheers

Greg Locock


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MTU, I'm guessing you didn't account for inflation in your figures?! Otherwise an engineer starting out at 50K would be making 200K within 15 years? I need to take a walk down to HR...

PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

Kyle - No these are real ratio's, not corrected for inflation. But I started back before Shep was a pup. Starting salaries were in the 10K to 12K range. I had stayed in school taking graduate school classes because there were very few jobs in 1972.

The early years of my career had COL go up by double digit increases a couple of times. My 1st year it was 11% and I got a 9% raise. 2nd year it rose by 9% and I got a 7.5% raise. Started looking for a different job.

Again in the period from '79 to '81 we saw double digit COL increases. At my 2nd employer, we saw raises above the COL for the first two of those years. The 3rd year, things had started to slow down and my raise that year was 8% with the COL increase of just over 10%.

My 2nd highest salary was in 2000; the year the engineering department was eliminated when that employer was bought out by a foreign company. It took 12 more years to surpass that number in my last full year of work.

"There's no point in looking back - all roads lead to where I stand".

gjc

In over 20 years of working in this field I have not received a raise of 4% anywhere that I have worked, ever. Mine were always less than this. So I wouldn't complain too loudly if I were standing in your shoes.

I did receive very large increases in salary by switching jobs however. And more likely than not, this is the route you will follow as well if you want to see your salary increase substantially.

Maui

www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com

Bti88

I know how you feel, my first years, I was so underpaid and put in so much time and hard work that my co-workers complained about my salary.

Wish I had your ambition son, there is nothing wrong with ambition. Ambition (or Greed according to Gordon Geko, see video below) is the essence of the evolutionary spirit. There is nothing wrong with wanting or making more money, especially when you feel that you're entitled to it.

From your post, you seem like a good kid who cares a great deal, don't listen to these old morons with a socialist mind.

Go for what you think you're entitled to, and don't settle for less. Be hungry, be foolish (Steve Jobs)

Just keep in mind that there is a price for everything, and be humble and don't have stereotypes or be judgmental like at a big firm you'd be only a one-task guy, you'd be surprised what you can be challenged with at a big firm, matter of fact, I suggest that you look for work at exclusively very large firms, chances are, you'll go from 50K to 70k to 75K job in NYC easily. If they ask for your current salary - LIE ABOUT IT, say you're making 65K or so, which is within market in NYC. And ask for more vacation time too. THIS IS THE TIME to make the move.

You've got one more thing going for you in NYC, it is very hard to find an engineer who can speak native English.

One last thing - don't look back.

Good luck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF_iorX_MAw

Quote (cry22)

If they ask for your current salary - LIE ABOUT IT, say you're making 65K or so, which is within market in NYC.

Do NOT lie about your salary... it WILL come back to bite you in the ass, sooner or later. That said, there's no valid reason to tell a company your current salary that is also in your best interest. It provides them with a very useful data point in how little they have to bump your salary to entice you over the wall.

If they ask, replay with "I'm sorry, I don't share that kind of personal information, but my research indicates a person of my particular skill set and experience level is worth $72-78k/yr, depending upon other benefits." If they're offering a low number of PTO hours, you aim for the top end of your range. If they're offering something on the low end of the scale, you can bargain for more benefits (such as more PTO, etc.).

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

Lie about your salary, is that what passes for the much lauded ethics people in non exempt industry always seem so concerned about?

I go with McGyver, very wise and sound advice, much better than what I gave you. My bad.

Kenat, I put in 70 hour-work weeks for years (unpaid overtime of course) and all I got in return was beans. When I made a mistake or missed something, I did not sleep for days and felt awful. I drive and I think about work all the time, paid the high price of broken family as a result. I speak from experience that hard workers are treated as mushrooms, you know, the kind that you feed BS all day long.
You can care about what you do and still seek the rewards of your honest hard word. This is what the post is about.

Bti88 - Do not neglect yourself or your family, they come before your work. And Money is THE part of it.

Quote (Lie about your salary, is that what passes for the much lauded ethics people in non exempt industry always seem so concerned about? )

????!? as opposed to the ethics of people in exempt positions, people who don't work, people with blue eyes, etc.?

Do be careful to do the math correctly-  that's an increase of 6-10% of your STARTING SALARY per year, not 10% of your CURRENT salary each and every year!  Plus inflation of course.  

What's a raise?
What's sick leave?
What's vacation?
What's medical and dental coverage?
What's a bonus?
What's a 401K?
What's time and a half?

Some of us should be thankful for what we do have, not gripe about what we do not, especially this time of the year.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

Good on ya, Mike! The self-employed miss out on so much . . . or is it the other way around?!?!

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

Reading through all these responses, and comments, I find it quite comical.

Responses range from "Be happy you have a job" - "grow the hell up" to "lie about it, do whatever you can to get a raise"

When I here this it makes me think back to my grandfathers career advice when I was very young and just out of college.

He said, "As an engineering just starting out, your primary goal is to acquire knowledge and learn a marketable skillset that can provide tremendous amounts of value to a broad range of organizations" This will in turn provide you with tremendous levels of compensation down the line. Why? because you provide a tremendous amount of value to an organization. Acquire knowledge and your pay will take care of itself. Be mindful of the market to know what skills are in demand and what opportunities are available, then tailor your skills to match the opportunities you find interesting. It isn't personal it is business, don't be afraid to leave a job to move to another. However, don't just complain about your situation, change it.

Wise words. . . . with that being said, I would never change jobs solely based on money. I am a consultant, I own my own business, I recently had my best engineer leave my organization because he wanted to be around his family more. He was paid very handsomely well above market value. If you always chase money, you will never be happy. As an engineer chase the knowledge, happiness will follow.

StrykerTECH Engineering Staff
http://www.stryker-tech.com/

Best answer so far. ^

Well said Stryker! Problems don't fix themselves. And it is business, not personal. Provide value and know what that value is, in dollar terms. While it is true that chasing money will likely not make you happy, I find that it's very difficult for most people to separate how they're compensated (relative to their expectations) from how they feel about themselves. In business terms, what you're paid is how you are "valued". Putting up with poor compensation as inevitable and just b*tching about it is a recipie for unhappiness- and for a continued slide in the compensation for all engineers.

Don't be complacent, don't base career decisions on where the money is today.

<I apologize for being so verbose.>

One of the best reads I have had this year online on any subject, thanks to everyone. I love the range of feelings and advice also, I think it is reflective of different age ranges, but also of different life goals and experiences. What is odd is that I agree with so many opinions, even those that seem contradictory. I definitely felt like this poster did earlier in my career, right or wrong...

At least in the USA, and probably true in most first world countries, some people get obsessed with the Joneses and chasing the dollar. I am currently in my highest paid position by a large percentage, and am compensated well above market value. I was very fortunate to find this opportunity soon after I had to shutter my own consulting business due to the economic crash. However, I really do not like the work- but I do like my coworkers, my schedule, flexibility of my bosses, and some other aspects of the job. It has allowed me to catch up on my 401k a LOT, and put my family in a better overall financial position. However, even if this position could last forever, I cannot keep doing this forever. I don't really like living where do (relocated for the job), and the work has become a grind. I have enjoyed other jobs much more for less pay than my current one, but I wasn't in as good of an overall financial situation. There are tradeoffs to most things in life.

I think engineers for some reason come into this career-game hardwired to WANT to really enjoy what we do, and compensation to us may seem secondary. And when we do not enjoy what we do, it really bothers us. I happen to have several friends who are very well-compensated attorneys, and almost none of them like what they do, and a couple of them have admitted hating it. The extra Porsche in the garage only buys so much extra happiness I guess (literally 2 of them have an extra Porsche in their garage).

Specifically to you being a young engineer, I think it is wise to stay put for a minimum of 3+ years out of college as others have said. Think of your career like a 40 year contract, and it is back-end loaded. You are in the minor leagues now, and you are getting better every day, and getting experience, and you will get a better contract down the road. Being a good engineer is not just about intelligence and ability, or putting in overtime, but a huge chunk of it is EXPERIENCE, and it is invaluable. Keep building your resume, and honing your skills.

HOWEVER, this is a capitalist society, and like it or not, we are all commodities. Do not compare your salary to other industries or occupations, that is a fool's errand and will only frustrate you. If I could have been born with an arm that can throw a ball 100mph I would not be on this damn message board right now. Also, you WANT your bosses to be rich!! That means they know what they are doing and you are working for smart, successful people! What is the alternative? A dumb and poor boss? Poorly run company? How would that work out for your making more money? This may be the one of the most irritating remarks many people make when they grumble about their current state of employment (I am not aiming at you), though I get it is a pretty normal emotional reaction, you have to be more analytical (engineer brain).

BUT, you could compare yourself to peers in your field with your experience level in your locality, which is likely what your company is doing if they want to retain employees and also not overpay them (market analysis). Can you evaluate your own competence fairly and compare that with peers in your discipline? It is not just about years on the job and hours per week worked, though that does count for something. How much skill, knowledge, and experience do you have compared to similar engineers in NYC? Do you get projects done on time, under budget, with minimal mistakes? How are your people and client skills? All these things may be part of what your boss is considering.

You may find most peers are within +/- 5% of your total compensation (include time off, medical/dental, bonus, etc.). Now- put value on your mentors, coworkers, and the overall type of work you do and your experience. This is very difficult, but try to put a value on all of that. Remember this is an investment in your future, like a bond that will mature in 10+ years. If you have a couple of go-to mentors and you are really learning fast under their wing, put a lot of value on that! You may find even if you are being paid a little under market, the experience you are getting is above market value. This will get you paid more down the road than lesser-valuable experience would.

So, looks like I am about to turn 40 and now I think a lot like the rest of the "old guys/gals" on this board. Oh well, getting old ain't so bad... I would stay put for at least another year or so, even until you get your PE, especially if you are getting good experience on quality projects, and they are giving you progressive responsibility. Don't compare yourself with the Joneses, especially in other occupations. However, do the analysis in my above paragraph if you think you are being grossly underpaid. You can always interview somewhere, get an actual offer, and then go to your boss and CAREFULLY have a discussion about YOUR market value. "I really enjoy working here and love the experience I am getting, but I must also consider my market value and what is best for my family. Is there anything that we can do?" If your boss balks, you have a backup plan.

PS
At a minimum put away what your employer matches in your 401k (usually 3% or more). If not, you are passing up free money. Also, every dollar you put in your 401k is a dollar that does not get taxed (yes, you will pay tax eventually), so it is like making 15%+ interest off the top. Save until it hurts. Nobody gets to 50 or 60 and says, "Wow, I saved way too much, that was so stupid!" You are an engineer, so you understand numbers- compound interest is a powerful tool. Use it to your advantage early in your career.

Just read the part about the starting salary of $50K. This is low for any entry level engineering position, and even more so for one in the NYC area. I work in aerospace, and the typical engineering new hire right out of school can easily command a salary 50% higher than that.

Over the past few years, the market for engineering jobs has been quite good. So there seems to be no reason to accept an engineering job that offered such a relatively low starting salary.

A interesting thread with some sound advice.

As a movie fan I thought one comment was particularly interesting. Referring to Gordon Gekko claiming that "Greed is Good". He said that, but that is not all he said. He actually said that greed for life, money, love and knowledge is good.

If your primary drive in life is money and your selected field is engineering there is an obvious risk for disappointment. But if greed for knowledge is what drives you than you will hopefully have a satisfying career.

The OP has worked for two years. By my standards that is a beginner in engineering and we have all been there. The difference between two and seven years in terms of experience is often huge. Perhaps you don't see it today but you will in a few years. I don't know much about salaries in the US but perhaps you started to low. If so, I would advice to give it a few years and see what happens. If you continue to progress well and keep your boss happy the salary situation might solve itself.

Good Luck

Thomas

Be patient. What you are experiencing is not the exception, but the norm. I have two examples for you.

Myself, I graduated in 2006. 1st year raise = 4.5%, 2nd year raise = 9 % (I was told it was because I did such a great job that year, but later came to find out it was cause they hired someone fresh out of college and had to give me that much just to match what they offered him). 3rd year raise = 8%. 4th year raise = 4 %. The consulting firm I worked for had a matix and ranked all employees. I was ranked #1 for years 1-3 and #2 for year 4 in a firm of about 50 engineers. I left just before taking my PE, and passing my PE would have got me another 3% raise. But I left and became a structural engineer in a different industry (pay at new job 30% higher than when I left consulting firm).

My good friend from college also graduated in 2006. Got 3-4% raises every year (nothing for passing PE). Also a top performer at a different consulting firm. Got promoted and received a 12% raise just within the last couple months . This promotion that he received is very rare at his firm, and basically if he does well he will be given the option to become an owner of the company within the next 3 years. This will likely double his salary within a few years of being an owner.

You see, the people who own consulting firms have worked very hard to get where they are at. They are responsible for managing a business that provides good jobs (believe it or not, you have a good job) for many many people. They need to be sure that if they have a bad year or two or three, that does not close doors (they will just have to stop buying 10k tables and putting additions on their houses). If owners where so kind to reduce what they take in, and pay everyone much higher of a salary, well then on a bad year they would have to tell everyone that they have to take a pay cut. This would make people madder than the boss buying a 10k table. Be glad that they can spend money like this; consider it job security to know they are running a good business.

That $10k table is most likely a good investment. I worked at a company that had put some really nice stuff in their main conference room. This was to make the company appear to be doing well. Which they were at the time. The BMW's might be to also look better while driving to a job site or meeting with clients outside of the office. There are some reasons to look a little more polished when being the owner of a business. And like the above comments say these guys worked hard to create a business that can employee people during a pretty bad economy for engineers. Work hard, learning as much as you possibly can, and see where you are at around year #4. You want to be at the point that you are handing out work too.

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer
http://bwengr.com | http://bwstructuralengineer.com | http://bwcivilengineer.com

If I were making stupidly overpriced lawyer money, yet discovered I hated the job - there would be no way I would buy a Porsche, let alone an "extra" one.

I would live modestly, stash away as much cash as I could (401(k) and then just investments) - and get the hell out by retiring very early or jumping to a different career.

Tom- Just to clarify, I meant "extra" in that the Porsche is not their daily car . But exactly what you said is what one of my friend's is trying to do, retire by 50 in a less expensive country (Costa Rica), that offers a lot of lifestyle things he enjoys like surfing, mountain biking, general outdoor activities. I hope to join him in due time.

Working towards a specific financial or professional goal like that can also get you through some times in a job you do not really enjoy, like getting good experience towards your PE, or being able to save a lot more money so maybe you can take a lesser paid but more fulfilling job in the future (part of my current plan).

Good luck to the OP, wish I had this kind of input and advice at that stage in my career.

Btai88 - don't complain. I work for a big company in NYC. I know we don't work for the same employer: Bonus? - what's a bonus?
The engineers in my department at your level got 3 to 4%. Senior people got 1.5%; after all we make too much money.

Wow, lots of stars there strykeTECH, lot of agreements.

I notice that you OWN your business, understand you did not hang around your former employers, you were not content with an employee's salary, you had to change that. While your dad's opinion was valid back in the days when people took care of their employees as family, it is no longer the case.
See nowadays - Promoting yourself is not a selfish thing.

I think you missed the point in the OP. Would like to see what advice do you have as an employer for a hard working kid underpaid in NYC instead, i.e what he should actually do to change the salary situation that he is obviously not happy with.

how does anybody on this forum know if stryketech was "not content with an employee's salary"? perhaps he wanted to be his own boss instead.

and it seems to be a jaded position to take regarding companies not taking care of their employees. the good ones do and the bad ones don't. and in this economy, it is difficult for a lot of companies to keep the doors open at all since commercial, residential and public works business is still sluggish in most areas.

as far as promoting one's self, go easy on that one. It is selfish and it occasionally successful. But, I can spot a self promoting fool a mile away and do not highly regard that personality trait.

If you do good works and are visible then self-promoting is unnecessary, for the most part. By visible, I don't necessarily mean holding up a sign that says, "Pick me;" you can simply work your presentation skills by volunteering to do presentations and practice on your own. Eventually, people will ask to present your own work, rather than have their usual skilled presenter do it for you.

We've got lots of people that are smart, and are valuable, but rarely get recognized for their contributions because they present poorly.

TTFN
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In 2006 I was in the same situation. I worked in Long Island and made 45k with 3 years experience. We were still in the "glorious housing boom" and I was getting 2-3% raises a year. I talked to all of my friends from college and all of them were making more. Even the one who graduated with a degree in liberal arts.

Then one day I noticed that my boss, with his 15 years experience and a PE was only making 70k. With the cost of a "starter" home in Long Island around 350k, I realized that I could never own a home. What did I do? I moved to Pennsylvania.

What I learned is that cost of living for an area and wages for a particular occupation are two completely different things. Everyone thinks they are but they are not. The cost of living in Pennsylvania is probably half and I actually got paid a more (50k). If I worked in NYC in banking and moved to another state I'm sure I would have taken a huge pay cut.

On second thought, I do have a brother-in-law who works in banking. He just sold his house to move to Texas. He will be getting paid exactly the same as he did in NYC and will have a substantially lower cost of living.

I always find these types of threads interesting because I can definitely relate.

First Job 1x
1 year raise 1.038
2 year raise 1.096
Second Job 1.115
1 year raise 1.149
2 year raise 1.201

So I'm making 20% more than my first day out of college.

Secondly, I get 2 weeks vacation and will not get 3 weeks until I have 7+ years experience.

I have 4.5 years experience and have passed SE-Vertical and will be taking the SE-Lateral again in April.

While, if you look at the raises I've received above, you'd think I'd be pretty happy and content. I'm not. I'm constantly having this internal battle. I get to a company, work hard, produce CDs efficiently, learn and get great reviews from my superiors. I really focus on the efficiency and budgeted hours of my projects. Since year 2, I've been the sole point of contact and structural designer (engineer) on all of my buildings. I do the same job as a unlicensed structural engineer of any amounts of experience. I'm more efficient than any of my coworkers, lower hours spent, less construction issues and design buildings which are to code (reviewed and checked by an licensed SE).

I never feel like I'm being appreciated. I never feel like score is being kept. We all ultimately work for compensation, and that's how we keep score. Both employers always go (went) back to my experience in the industry, not production. This kills me inside. I consider myself competitive and 95% of structural engineering is repetitive and not specialized. To stand out, I produce great CDs, with little oversights, as efficient (structure and time spent) as possible.

These employers barely pay attention to their actual employees production. Budgets are compared with final hours, but not much weight is given to the actual employees.

When I express these feelings, they always fall on deaf ears.

How do I get my mind right, when we (experienced engineers above), all consistently disregard PERFORMANCE, PRODUCTION and EFFICIENCY. "Be happy with 3%, you could be getting 1-2%".

I still have my "fire", but its slowly getting put out. Why come into work, work hard and be productive if the employer never wants to keep score?

/Rant

Gerry,

If you're as good as you say you are you should set up on your own when you get licensed. You should do well if your work is to a high standard and you should be able to compete on price if you are able to produce equivalent work in less time.

Gerry ,
Welcome to the consulting business. I went thru all that for years until I went to work for myself.
Management's constant excuse was that they have a lot of overhead (which is true), and the weren't collecting a lot of their billables (also true), but I have very low overhead and I collect 98% of my billables because I am a one-man shop.

Just be happy you have a job because there are a lot of unemployed engineers out there, and be patient.

This largely has nothing to do with 'am I underpaid or unfairly compensated', more to do with fundamentals of what can make one happy, but in Gerry's case, if you're unhappy, take active steps to change the situation rather than getting angry at what you can't change.

This sounds like smug advice (and in some cases it probably is) but its far better for your own mental outlook to focus on what can make a difference. Obviously you've turned your efforts at making your work more efficient, more productive and so on, but now turning your focus to changing your lot (including looking elsewhere, or planning for starting up your own business) is going to be a lot more satisfying.

Clearly the hard part is to work out how to get from where you are now to where you want to go and what you want to do.

It's depressing to read so many negative responses. I wouldn't have imagined on a "professional" forum so many people would engage in verbal thrashings and attacks, rather than objective feedback. It's usually the same people too, which is even more bothersome.

BTai88, my first raise was in that same range... 4-5%. My first review went very well, etc. I felt a bit dejected at the time as well, thinking "well if I'm so good, why can't you increase my pay more than slightly over COL / inflation?" Fact is, especially in the downed economy, the 1-2% raise really is the benchmark. If you're getting 4% or more, you're doing really good.

I don't think you have an overinflated sense of self-worth, maybe just an expectation with no frame of reference. To parrot what has been said already: if you're happy with what you do, don't worry about the raise. The money will come. Just focus on staying good at what you do, and finding ways to constantly improve.

Experience: accumulated knowledge over time.

Talent: the ability to use experience.

Which is more valuable?

Whats the inflation rate in the US? 2-3% or thereabouts?

If your getting 3% raises your wage is effectively stagnant, below that and its declining.

Maybe its time to get greedy? Everyone else seems to be. They've done well from it too.

Sam
Brisbane, Australia

Young Engineer. American old west enthusiast

inflation rate is well below 3%, approximately 1.5% for the last year or so. the "Great Recession" is still in effect in the US

The inflation rate depends on what you happen to need at the moment, honestly. We just saw propane increase by 250%, YES 250%, in the last week in the upper Midwest. An anomalous event(I hope!)most likely . When I go to the grocery store and have to pay over $3 for a pound of ground beef that cost only $1.50 4 years ago, milk up 30%, bread up 20%, I find it very hard to swallow (no pun intended) that our inflation rate, even as an averaged whole, is less than 3%. The talking heads can say anything, our voices are drowned by the media, so-called pundits and perpetually faithful sheep.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

Social security cost of living adjustment (COLA) is a good reference.

http://www.ssa.gov/cola/automatic-cola.htm

http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/cur...

Thanks CVG. I don't doubt that there are reams of published data on this. Just count me as one of the skeptics. My personal observations seem to indicate a vividly different picture. Kind of like unemployment data, in which those no longer seeking work or whose unemployment benefits have run out, are no longer included in the number.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

"those no longer seeking work or whose unemployment benefits have run out, are no longer included in the number."

My recollection is that was done during the recession during the Reagan administration. It changed the numbers by about 1.5 percentage points.

TTFN
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There are actually 6 different unemployment rates calculated by BLS. The "top line" publicized one is U-3, and has had numerous changes over the years which reduced the number.

U-6 is probably the most realistic of "true" unemployment, though an argument can be made for U-5. Working a single hour at a part time job in the month takes you out of U-5, but leaves you in U-6 if you are looking for full-time work and cannot get it.

As a comparison in December 2013:

U1: 3.6%
U2: 3.5%
U3: 6.7%
U4: 7.2%
U5: 8.1%
U6: 13.1%

http://portalseven.com/employment/unemployment_rat...

all that trivia on the unemployment rate is interesting, but not sure what it has to do with the inflation rate. of course personal perception may seem that inflation is higher than calculated. as a personal note, I did notice that a couple of months ago, i paid the lowest price for a gallon of gas since about 2009 - under $3 per gallon. That was about a 25% drop in price from the high just a year ago or so. And after re-financing the house, saving about $500 per month on the mortgage. So my cost of living has definitely gone down, not up

This is a great thread - and I think shows a variety of opinions from engineers at all different levels within the profession. Some of the posts I agree with and some got me fired up, especially when those of you said to be "happy just to have a job". I don't have a job; I have a CAREER. and the minute I start working for someone who thinks I'm there just because they sign the paychecks needs to know there are plenty of other opportunities out there for a talented engineer.

FYI - I am a structural/civil engineer with 10 years of experience; I started in design and now do more forensic work and consulting.

So here are my two cents:

- Your first four years out of college (before getting you're P.E.) are ALL about experience. Don't chase a paycheck - focus on learning something new on every day.

- Don't confuse "raise" with "promotion" - the only way to climb the salary ladder is to increase your responsibilities. So rather than focus on the raise percentages (and I agree that 4% for the same title/responsibility/etc) is good - you have a much better chance at a 20% "raise" if it comes with a new title and list of responsibilities.

- Get your P.E. and see how you fit into the company. Don't just expect them to throw a bunch of money at you. You need to sit down with management and discuss how your personal goals fit with the company and also let them know ways you can help their company grow (and make more money for them). Make sure they know you want to start managing your own projects, taking on more responsibility and ultimately being a leader for them.

- Don't be afraid to speak up - but don't think of it like "sitting your boss down". Both you and he need to be on the same page about what your goals are and what the goals of the company are. You'll find out very quickly if you are in the right place.

- NEVER leave a job just because of money - but also don't be afraid to look at what's out there. Make sure you work on your resume at least once a year and try to determine what your market value is. However, in many cases market value doesn't always reflect what you are worth to a certain company. It may be more and it may be less.

zdas04's response is the best engtip post I have read in the last 4 years. Still laughing.

It's amazing how much interest the topic of compensation generates. Lots of interesting posts here.

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." L. da Vinci
- Gian

For engineers, who are generally powerless in society, salary is a way of keeping score.

TTFN
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I agree in a way IRstuff. However, I wouldn't say we are powerless. We are responsible for every technological breakthrough that comes societies way.
I see this all the time being in the research sector (automotive).

Also, from what I know about you I would say you are likely responsible for many innovations as well.

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." L. da Vinci
- Gian