Sealed drawings ownership
Sealed drawings ownership
(OP)
I have been working with Engineering drawing for the past 20 some years. I working with document control not engineering.. Anyways I was wondering if we hire an engineering firm for a project and they summit a sealed set of drawings who is required to keep this sealed drawing for record?
We have our own engineering drawing management system and this question comes up several times.
Is it an owner legel responsiblity to keep a record of the sealed drawings or is it the Engineering firms???
Clint
We have our own engineering drawing management system and this question comes up several times.
Is it an owner legel responsiblity to keep a record of the sealed drawings or is it the Engineering firms???
Clint






RE: Sealed drawings ownership
RE: Sealed drawings ownership
RE: Sealed drawings ownership
I like to think it is the Engineers responsibility for a self-liability issue. If something occurs the Engineering firm should want their drawings to show what they required and it can be used in court for protection. And now of days we are talking a digital set on a server and a hard disk backup.
RE: Sealed drawings ownership
As an engineer its our responsibility to make sure a building densest fall down. I don't think the law requires us to prove it in a written fashion. So clients do, but legally we don't have to do calcs.
RE: Sealed drawings ownership
I don't know if i would ever throw away my calcs, i don't think it is 100% ethical... but i may have to think about this from a litigation standpoint.
RE: Sealed drawings ownership
ztengguy, what is the logic behind no calcs = no liability? It seems to me that if you provide a faulty design and it is shown on the drawings then you are on the hook for that faulty design whether you have the calcs or not.
RE: Sealed drawings ownership
RE: Sealed drawings ownership
The argument goes something like this: If you keep the calculations, someone will find some error in them. Likely a small error that doesn't change the design at all. However, if the case goes to court with a jury; the argument will be made that if you (the engineer) made this kind of error, how good could you be. Most of the public thinks that everything engineers do should be perfect, i.e. no errors of any kind and that if you make a mistake you are responsible.
While I understand this arguement, I don't really agree with it. However, this is the possition that many engineering firms are taking.
Mike Lambert
RE: Sealed drawings ownership
RE: Sealed drawings ownership
Interesting comments on the design calculations, some of the older stations we have we did get the calcs from the AE. But this was one concern from an AE we worked with on a new Facility, they put up a fight in sending us this information. In the past we have used this informaiton on designing structural changes to the facility. So for us it was very good information to have available for an operating facility.
Thanks again for all the comments.
RE: Sealed drawings ownership
We keep drawings and calcs. Seems silly to toss them since one day you may need them and clients tend to frown upon paying you to recreate calcs you should have anyway.
RE: Sealed drawings ownership
I would be looking for a new engineer if I was the client.
RE: Sealed drawings ownership
In structural engineering, where many projects are "one and done," I can at least see the temptation to clear out old files. In my type of civil engineering, where we may consult for a public (or even private) client for years, document retention is vital because the old files are part of the research we do for new projects. I have found relevant data in old job files that were decades old.
Project owners and contractors may keep copies of drawings and any calcs that were sent their way for a period of time after completion (the owner should keep at least the drawings permanently, though many fail to do so). Stamped and signed drawings are also a public record and the reviewing agency may have kept copies in their files; same with stamped and signed calculations that were reviewed by the agency. Some agencies around here will keep these documents for years, while others do not. I once found, in a local city's archives, a 10-year-old set of site civil plans that I needed for information for a new project at an industrial site. The owner of the site had lost his set a couple years before. Thus, destroying plans and calcs can pointless.
BTW, here are NSPE's guidelines for document retention: http://www.nspe.org/resources/pdfs/Licensure/Resou...
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"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill
RE: Sealed drawings ownership
As for owners or others, I know of no requirement to keep the documents.
RE: Sealed drawings ownership
In the digital age, keeping files doesn't need to take much space.
After decades in business, many times we've found design records that gave us the inside track for new work with prior clients.
RE: Sealed drawings ownership
If you (as original designer) can tell the owner "We keep the drawings" then You (as bidder for the repair job or extension or replacement project or after-fire-flooding-feast-or-famine repair job) can get the repair job started faster and with a lower bid.
RE: Sealed drawings ownership
I'm guessing this is where the lawyers get their position of not keeping records.
RE: Sealed drawings ownership
[1] Plaintiff's attorney: "Mr. Engineer, did you perform the necessary __________ calculations for the __________ design in question?"
[2] Mr. Engineer: "Yes."
[3] Plaintiff's attorney (knowing full well via the discovery process that the calcs were destroyed): "May we see these calculations?"
[4] Mr. Engineer: "No. The calculations were destroyed and no longer exist."
[5] Plaintiff's attorney (now getting on his soap box and turning the Mr. Engineer into a shell of his former self): "Why would you DESTROY EVIDENCE that might exonerate you? Are you sure you even did the calculations? What proof can you provide that you actually performed these calculations? What proof can you provide that you performed these calculations properly and to the normal standards of practice and care? What proof can you provide that you were not only not negligent in this matter, but not grossly negligent? TO THE DUNGEON WITH HIM!!!"
I think you can see at this point the very steep mountain the engineer and his attorney must now climb to retrieve this situation and the engineer's reputation. If I sat on the jury hearing this case, I would not be very sympathetic towards the engineer.
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"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill
RE: Sealed drawings ownership
RE: Sealed drawings ownership
RE: Sealed drawings ownership
RE: Sealed drawings ownership
Of my two depositions, our calculations and drawings were not relevant to the first and only somewhat relevant to the second. Mostly, it was our other project records and it's a good thing we kept them. I won't go into details, but retained emails, telephone conversation records, etc. got us a win in the first case and greatly reduced damages in the second case because we were able to prove that the client was partly responsible for several errors that increased the cost of a construction project. The crux of both cases, interestingly enough, was the failure of the clients to provide some or all of the information that they had in hand and that they were specifically required to provide PER THE AGREEMENTS (e.g. project requirements, record drawings, past studies, etc).
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"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill
RE: Sealed drawings ownership
On a side note, I once had the owner's field rep who was the site safety guy asking me about sheeting design calculations, after i gave in my sheeting design, and I said to him that my design bears a PE seal, and i assume responsibility for it, and he is not a PE, so he is not even qualified to look over my work, not to mention the fact I want to protect my work. I told him if you don't feel it is safe, you can hire your own engineer, and have him do the calcs, because I work for the site contractor and not the GC or the owner.
This brings up a question, should you show calcs to anyone who demands them? I know NYCDEP (department of environmental protection in NYC) wants to see them for drywells etc, from a document review standpoint before approving plans, so i'm ok with that. But should you show your calcs other than in court when you have to?