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hearing loss
3

hearing loss

hearing loss

(OP)
hello

pubmed is full of articles claiming that factory workers working in noisy environments lose irreversibly their hearing

hearing protection doesn't seem to help much

I am extremely concerned about this and I would like to know from people in the industry, how noisy the engineering work environment can be

are there factories/plants that are less noisy?
for example chemical/pharmaceutical/cosmetics factories are almost noiseless?
what about food factories?
are you concerned about hearing loss? what do you do about it?

thanks

RE: hearing loss

(OP)
I am particularly interested for a maintenance engineering career, but I wonder if there are other options in the general engineering field, without noise hazards
how much of the time of a maintenance engineer is spent on the noisy factory? or maybe most of this role involves work when the machines are shut down? can you give me some insight please?

RE: hearing loss

OSHA REQUIRES THERE BE HEARING PROTECTION AVAILABLE IN US FACTORIES.
I THINK MINE STARTED GOING WHEN I WORKED IN AN AIRCRAFT FACTORY.

Chris
SolidWorks 13
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

RE: hearing loss

(OP)
while it seems logical that hearing protection should help, are there actually any research proving that they really prevent hearing loss? and in which extend?

because I read a meta-analysis from Cochrane in Pubmed, where they said the evidence isn't enough
and another one research that despite hearing protection, there were hearing loss among workers

RE: hearing loss

I think it's difficult to seperate hearing loss due to exposure to noise and just plain old growing old.

Good luck,
Latexman

Technically, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water.

RE: hearing loss

What I do is always wear my hearing protection. When I worked in a forging plant with hammers and upsetters, I wore earmuffs. When I worked around machines I would wear ear plugs. My ears have probably been better protected in the workplace than at home. I have been working over 35 years and I still pass the hearing tests! Wear your PPE!

RE: hearing loss

I worked in a marine exhaust shop for five years, with hammering and grinding going on all the time.
I also conducted about a hundred sea trials of our product, each comprising a couple of hours in a closed, hot engineroom with a pretty big Diesel or two working at full power.
I was careful to use the hearing protection provided, and have suffered no noticeable hearing loss.

That said, most ear protection is uncomfortable, especially when you are hot and sweaty, so there is a strong temptation to remove it.

A friend of mine worked in a blow-molding shop, equipped with a huge noisy shredder to immediately recycle parts that weren't quite right. The old timers who worked there didn't like wearing ear protection because it was uncomfortable, and asserted that they got used to the noise after a few months on the job. I.e., they lost some hearing, but were too ignorant to realize what was going on.


On a somewhat related note, I worked in a Ni-Cd battery shop where part of the battery plates were sandblasted, and the workers had gotten out of the habit of wearing the supplied respirators, so they were breathing metal dust that is an alleged carcinogen. I had a long talk with the most belligerent of the bunch, who asserted that if he got sick, the company would pay his hospital bills until he got well. I couldn't get him to understand that if he got sick, the company would indeed pay his medical bills, until he died. So I threatened to fire him on the spot if I ever caught him without a respirator on his face again, and I told him to go talk to his union rep to see how much the union would do to get his job back. ... which was precisely nothing; it was in the contract, and a matter of black letter law, that refusal to wear provided PPE is grounds for dismissal. Whenever I saw him after that, he would wave and point to the respirator on his face. I doubt that management kept up the pressure; they bitched about the cost of the respirator filters.


Back to your concern; the research has been done, and there's plenty of anecdotal evidence to support it.
In the US, a number of government agencies require that appropriate PPE be provided, at no cost to the worker, but enforcement is somewhat less than universal.

If you want to do the world a favor, become a PPE designer and make it more comfortable to wear.

In fairness, I should point out that in addition to chronic hazards like carcinogen exposure and hearing loss, there are probably enough acute hazards to provde a thousand ways to die in any given factory, so you should take all appropriate precautions, use common sense, read up on what you're doing, and especially, pay attention in the workplace, and you'll have a fair chance of getting old and cranky like me, and dying of something other than a workplace hazard.

I should also point out that making a fuss about hazards and stuff like that during an interview will exclude you from the job, unless that is the job.






Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: hearing loss

I once made the mistake of asking if OSHA had ever paid a visit after the shop tour during an interview. In hindsight, it wasn't a mistake... it would have been a dangerous place to work.

“Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively.”
-Dalai Lama XIV

RE: hearing loss

Latexman:

It's not really that hard when you have the lateral blast from an M-14 flash suppressor hit your ear from three feet away with no protection. nosmiley

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: hearing loss

Well, our lab downstairs measures around 65 dBC ambient and we pumped up to 75 dBC into it during acoustic sensitivity testing of our product (for which I wore earplugs).

I've also had to do an on wing inspection of a store on the inboard pylon of a Harrier with the engines running - that was noisy and I was wearing combo ear plugs & head set.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: hearing loss

Well, one big difference today is that people have kW-class amps and speakers in their cars, not unlike carrying what used to called "Tower of Power," a rock concert speaker stack in your backseat. I'm tempted to look into selling some really decent hearing aids for when those guys hit middle age.

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: hearing loss

Maybe it was the rock concerts. Aerosmith, The Who, ZZ Top, AC/DC, Black Crows, Lynard Skynard, and others.

Good luck,
Latexman

Technically, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water.

RE: hearing loss

I've worked with acoustics for many years, and in noisy environments off and on in that time. Hearing protection does work /if you wear it/. Even if you have already damaged your ears it will help prevent further degradation. If you forget to put it on at the start of the shift, put it on as soon as you remember, it will still reduce the long term damage. If your ears hurt or go numb then you are damaging them and need to put hearing protection on pronto. Not all hearing protection is equivalent, hopefully somebody has checked what type is appropriate for that particular environment. As a somewhat technical aside, A weighting is a stupid habit that people have got into when measuring noise. It filters out too much of the low frequency noise that is present in industrial settings.

If you don't like the company supplied protectors talk to your OSHA people, find what spec they are recommending, and go to a shop and try some on until you find a comfortable set. Hearing aids cost a damn sight more than muffs.


Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: hearing loss

Hearing loss due to exposure is a fact. There have been numerous studies and most point to the same things....if you are exposed to high noise levels for long periods of time, you will lose hearing.

Google it.

RE: hearing loss

Per WebMD, "Advanced age is the most common cause of hearing loss. One out of three people aged 65-74 has some level of hearing loss. After age 75, that ratio goes up to one out of every two people."

Good luck,
Latexman

Technically, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water.

RE: hearing loss

I have worked in an environmental noise dept before, doing surveys of (mainly aerospace) factories. The problem with ear defenders is normally that they aren't worn. Plugs are the best, if they are comfortable. More than 85dB(A) all day is like sitting on a tube train all your life. Wearing ear defenders, or plugs kind of shuts you out from the world. Having said that, I now work in a quiet office, where most people are plugged into something.

- Steve

RE: hearing loss

I have worked many years in plants, I have used hearing protection when I need to but not all the time. Most plants should have ear plug stations. if not buy a box and keep them close.

But yes use them!!.. when your working in a high pressure steam plant running turbines it can get pretty noisy. or when a relief goes off when you don't expect it..do you hear what Im saying......what! I said did you hear what Im saying

RE: hearing loss

(OP)
> GregLocock (Automotive)
> 7 Oct 13 20:42
> "hearing protection doesn't seem to help much"
>
> cite?

"Noise attenuation ratings of hearing protection under field conditions were consistently lower than the ratings provided by the manufacturers."
"There is very low quality evidence that the better use of hearing protection devices as part of HLPPs reduces the risk of hearing loss"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23076923

RE: hearing loss

Quote ("hearing protection doesn't seem to help much")

Quote (cite?)


No citation, but results of an engineering discussion with a very good Safety Guy I know. I was pursuing an entrepreneurial opportunity, the focus of which was to automate a very noisy process & remove the operators from the area. The manufacturer had received an OSHA citation for a noisy environment and hearing loss of their workers. I thought the justification of my proposal would be economic, but no, it was noise abatement. The manufacturer had to limit the amount of exposure to each worker.

My Safety Guy friend explained it to me:
(1) exposure is accumulative, it is time-limited and a function of decibel level exposure. So many hours of so many decibels per time period. Then the worker had to go push a broom in a quieter area until next week.
(2) Safety Guy spoke of recent research indicating foam ear plugs provide "pretty good" protection. Headgear/earmuffs did not provide protection as good as ear plugs. The best option was (a) combo of ear plugs & ear muffs and (b) rigorous observance of time-based exposure limits.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com

RE: hearing loss

Reading WebMD for medical advice is like reading USA Today for in-depth news analysis. Go to PubMed and read actual studies.

RE: hearing loss

"Noise attenuation ratings of hearing protection under field conditions were consistently lower than the ratings provided by the manufacturers."

My understanding is that the ratings are based more on the materials the hearing protection devices are made of tested in lab conditions rather than in a more applied setting. So one thing I've been told is that many of the ear plugs with the best ratings don't work as well in real life because they don't seal into the ear as well as some lower rated wax plugs etc.

"The effectiveness of hearing protection devices depends on training and their proper use. There is very low quality evidence that the better use of hearing protection devices as part of HLPPs reduces the risk of hearing loss, whereas for other programme components of HLPPs we did not find such an effect."

So while the evidence may be low quality, they are the only thing they found any evidence of working if I read it correctly.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: hearing loss

Thanks, I think the specific study below confirms WebMD's general point. It goes on to suggest that age related hearing loss is about 9X the burden of occupational noise exposure in the U.S. One should still protect their hearing as best they can, but there will probably come a time (an age depending on your heredity) where age related hearing loss is going to control and overshadow noise related hearing loss. This is why I think that at a certain age it's difficult to separate hearing loss due to exposure to noise and just plain growing old. I'm sure this must have affected the outcome of some of those studies.

The burdens of age-related and occupational noise-induced hearing loss in the United States.
Dobie RA.
SourceDepartment of Otolaryngology-Head and Neck Surgery, University of California, Davis, CA 95817, USA. radobie@ucdavis.edu

Abstract
OBJECTIVES: Aging and noise are generally considered the most common causes of adult hearing loss in developed countries. This study estimates the contributions of aging and occupational noise in the United States.

DESIGN: A model of hearing loss burden in American adults was constructed using data from the Census Bureau, from an international standard that predicts age-related and noise-induced hearing loss (ISO-1999), from the American Medical Association method of determining hearing impairment, and from sources estimating the distribution of occupational noise exposure in different age and sex groups.

RESULTS: Occupational noise exposure probably accounts for less than 10% of the burden of adult hearing loss in the United States; most of the rest is age-related. Most of the occupational noise burden is attributable to unprotected exposures above 95 dBA, and becomes apparent in middle age, when occupational noise exposure has ceased but age-related threshold shifts are added to prior noise-induced shifts, resulting in clinically significant impairment.

CONCLUSIONS: In our current state of knowledge, noise-induced hearing loss is still the most important preventable cause of hearing loss in the United States. The burden of occupational noise-induced hearing loss could probably be reduced by stricter enforcement of existing regulations. Longer lifespans in developed countries and migration of manufacturing jobs to developing countries will continue to reduce the relative contribution of occupational hearing loss in countries like the United States. Preventive interventions for age-related hearing loss, even if only partially effective, could potentially reduce the burden of adult hearing loss more than elimination of occupational noise.

Good luck,
Latexman

Technically, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water.

RE: hearing loss

(OP)
"Occupational noise exposure probably accounts for less than 10% of the burden of adult hearing loss in the United States; most of the rest is age-related."

this is logical, since very few are exposed to serious occupational noise
it doesn't actually say that you are going to lose your hearing possibly from ageing and not noise

RE: hearing loss

That article is not accessible, unfortunately, but this one is:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC174036... The prevalence ratios cited here are mostly less than 10%, even for those that reported working in a noisy environment. Obviously, not a fully rigorous experiment, but indicative, at any rate.

For those that don't wear any protection at all, the statistics are worse:
http://www.who.int/quantifying_ehimpacts/global/6n...

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: hearing loss

I always found my bike was faster when I wore ear plugs.

- Steve

RE: hearing loss

All my career, my Dad told me, "protect your ears or you'll need hearing aids like me". I did protect my ears, very diligently, but it appears I'll still need hearing aids like him. The big hammer is heredity and age when it comes to hearing. That's my view on it. I still wear hearing protection in the plant though.

Good luck,
Latexman

Technically, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water.

RE: hearing loss

I wonder how much those iPods contribute to hearing loss compared to a noisy work environment? Sometimes kids have the volume cranked up so much that I can easily hear what they're listening to (and wished that I couldn't). They're probably destined for hearing aids too before too many years go by.

It's a good idea to be concerned about hearing loss in a job. But I wouldn't normally consider it a deal breaker in considering an industrial position. The effects can usually be mitigated in most circumstances by wearing the appropriate protection. And noise is usually the least of your worries. There are a LOT of other potential hazards that can be much more serious.

In my current position when I came in we had a hard chrome plating line that was used every day of the week, primarily for rework purposes. It used hexavalent chrome. Nasty, carcinogenic stuff. I shut the entire line down six months after I started here, and I'm very glad that I did. Now we outsource that work to other companies who specialize in those types of platings. They can have it.

Maui

www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com

RE: hearing loss

(OP)
how many dB does YOUR factory/plant/work place rate?
also, please describe the activities of the plant and the protection you use

RE: hearing loss

Personal stereo headphones have moved on from passive (speakers near your ears) to full close coupling. So you can have them louder with no leakage. About 1/2 my office is plugged in all day every day. Can't be good in the long term for tose little hairs.

- Steve

RE: hearing loss

Sorry most of those studies are not testing the effectiveness of hearing protection devices, they are assessing the effect of hearing protection policies in the workplace. The one that points out that the muffs don't work as well as they do in the lab misses the point, it is the top 10dB that really matters, not whetehr you get 40 or more dB at one frequency. While only 10% of hearing loss in the general population is work related, what proportion of the general population works in noisy (>85 dBA*8 hours) industries?

While hearing loss may be inevitable in many cases, it doesn't have to happen in middle age. That is entirely under your control.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: hearing loss

Quote:


Latexman (Chemical)
7 Oct 13 19:59
Maybe it was the rock concerts. Aerosmith, The Who, ZZ Top, AC/DC, Black Crows, Lynard Skynard, and others.

I believe Pete Townshend (the Who) is deaf in one ear, wonder why?

RE: hearing loss

Well in the development ends of a hard rock underground mine, with a three boom pneumatic jumbo rattling away at the face, I believe something like 130 dBA has been measured, which I can well believe because on the odd occassion during my career when I ventured into such an area without hearing protection, it is physically painfull on the esars and the ringing in the ears lasts for hours. Yes we have a lot of deaf miners after 20-30 years of such exposure.... especially since if they are not on the jumbo, they are probabably on the scooptram at around 110-115dBA, but as an engineer I MIGHT spend 0.001% of my time in that environment. A direct production supervisor MIGHT spend 0.01% of his time in there.

If you propose to take up engineering / supervision as a career, from a personal perspective, who really cares how noisy the shop floor is.?? Ill guarantee no shop floor comes any where close to 130dBA

RE: hearing loss

(OP)
a factory maintenance engineer how much of his time spends it in the factory environment/noise?

RE: hearing loss

Growing up, I was of the "if it's too loud, you're too old" mindset, chainsaws, snowmobiles, open headers, firearms. Had to take a hearing test to join the Navy (and passed), but they were sticklers about wearing hearing protection. I started wearing it off duty with chainsaws, lawn mowers. etc. Upon retirement from the Navy, I scored higher on my exit physical hearing test. I'm 60 now and working in a noisy environemnt and just scored very well on my hearing test. I'll wear it, thank you very much.

RE: hearing loss

I've never head anyone called a factory maintenance engineer.
In most outfits of my experience, a 'Plant Engineer' takes care of the buildings and the infrastructure, and a 'Manufacturing Engineer' takes care of the production machinery and the process, among other things.
Either of them would be perceived as irresponsible and insular if they spent less than half their day outside of their office space.
Also, if the factory is noisy enough to be hazardous, reducing or mitigating that noise, or the exposure to it, becomes part of their shared responsibility.

Have you considered mortuary work?

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: hearing loss

Mike - I've heard people are dying to get into that field. (Sorry)

RE: hearing loss

(OP)
"In a well-run/managed factory, it'll be a really rare thing."

assuming I will work in a well-run factory and again assuming most factories are well-run, why the maintenance/manufacturing engineer rarely spends time in the noisy environment of the factory? is this logical?

RE: hearing loss

2
I'm surprised so many of you are taking this thread seriously from the OP that wanted a job where he would get a high-paying engineering job without a degree, never get dirty and could live in safe, cubicle bliss. I look forward to his next thread "Should I be concerned about papercut risks?"

RE: hearing loss

(OP)
Thank you.

RE: hearing loss

Moving right along...

What is the price of tea in Bankok?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: hearing loss

"I am extremely concerned about this and I would like to know from people in the industry, how noisy the engineering work environment can be"

Didn't think there would be another one of these threads.
OP please rethink this sector of the job market if you are so concerned.
You could try perhaps finding a job where you can work from home, and therefore never have to go outside and risk breathing in that toxic outdoor air.

RE: hearing loss

I seem to recall a recent study , that said that the quality of indoor air in UK homes was worse than most factories, I believe it was in the Daily Express.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: hearing loss

If one were to follow the threads on my woodworking forums, they would condemn all of our hobby shops due to wood dust as a health hazard. Some shops have nothing but a $10 fan, other have $10k in dust collection equipment. I'm in the middle... probably about $1k, between the ambient air cleaner, the main dust collector, and all of the piping.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: hearing loss

Definitely avoid the power industry. Anywhere where there HP steam drops to a lower pressure is extremely noisy, and in a contingency state when HP steam is vented to atmosphere from 100 Bar or more the air is virtually shaken from your lungs by the noise and your body vibrates: it is painfully loud through combined muffs and plugs to the extent that you are forced to retreat away from it. The noise spectrum extends way below and way above the normal audible range, but these inaudible frequencies are still capable of causing damage.

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