×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum
7

PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

(OP)
Would it be considered moral, ethical, and non-fattening to include portions of the www.eng-tips.com forum responding time and reading as professional development for continuing ed credits?     

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

I do. I count it as a "Journal".

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

Most pdh reporting is on the honor system. As I'm sure you know, most states don't even want anything except a you to sign an affidavit that you completed the requirement. Florida is one exception that I know about.
So until you're audited, it's not a worry. Keep records and be sure to have an explanation ready. When I renew, I fill out a matrix with dates and titles that I keep on our server. By the time you get audited, it's hard to remember the details. I've been audited twice (Nevada and Texas), and even though it was a pain to figure out how to respond, I just regurgitated my information, give them the records that I did have (Certificates, sign in sheets, etc.) and wrapped it up in a signed letter.
Take it easy, don't only depend on Eng-Tips and you'll be fine.

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

Actually, I'd disagree that it should count as continuing ed. Does sitting around the lunch table discussing something related to engineering count as continuing ed? I would equate the learning experience to be the same. If so, then practically every discussion you have could be considered continuing ed. Pretty sure this isn't the intent.

I don't mean to negate the quality of the eng-tips website but I just don't think it qualifies as continuing ed.

From the perspective of formality, I would also be cautious. If I remember correctly some states require a "list of attendees" to be kept by the host of the continuing ed session so that records can be verified. At least, when we were hosting professional development seminars, this was the instruction we were given.

Yes, it's on the honor system. But I think time spent surfing a bulletin board could be a gray area at best, deceptive at worst.

PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

In my state (New Mexico) they have guidelines for categories of continuing education. They allow 1 PDH for each journal you subscribe to and read. I call eng-tips.com a "journal" and claim 1 PDH without any feeling of wrongdoing. I spend several hundred hours a year learning and teaching (and bickering, but that isn't the primary activity).

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

If the purpose of the pdh system is to keep up to date on your field, I would say that answering and browsing Eng-Tips is a legitimate activity.
As I said, you shouldn't claim all 16 credits a year based on the website, but a 1 pdh or 2 is OK.

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

(OP)
To continue the discussion then: In my case, I did complete a 30 hour on-line OSHA course in January, so clearly that course completion certificate and the hours chargeable to the company documents (more than double) the pro development hours needed for the certification year.

Casual, unlisted or unlogged reading on a generic internet energy web sites would be more than debatable; logged hours researching on specified engineering, scientific or technical web sites (for machining details, or metal specifications or heat transfer theory, radiation and thermal equations) could be more easily supported to the PE agency. Specific documentation (for example) more of a large number (100 or 200) of explicitly technical replies and critical discussions on eng-tips would also be valid, but the registrant would be more credible if those hours were only for a portion of the total pro-dev. hours for a different year.

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

Oregon explicitely allows both "self study" and "mentoring nonregistered individuals" as qualifying activities for continued professional development hour credits.

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

Personally, if you are keeping up or learning new concepts in this forum, it is education to me, and continuing education at that. Your posts are conveniently saved by the site, so you can verify your participation to the state board if requested.

If you are honestly in here to learn and contribute to the betterment of other engineers, including yourself, how is that different than attending a seminar? That is only once a month or so. This site is every day.

I had the same question here five years ago regarding continuing education and this site...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

@ IR:

Damn but you're good! :)

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

I would call using forums like eng-tips a journal very questionable. I think that you can easily find websites that offer low cost or free contiunal education credits a better choice. One site that offers free CE is http://www.cenews.com/webcasts . You can watch the live webcast for free CE credit; and for recorded ones, free CE credit after taking a quiz.

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

You may find it questionable, but when I took a class on PE responsibilities from my board I asked the question and they unequivocally supported it because it is verifiable--if they audited they could look at my usage of this site in just a few seconds. They can't really audit whether I read the journals I subscribe to or not.

They also said that participation in this particular forum (Professional Ethics) could (under certain guidelines) satisfy part of the ethics PDH requirements. That requires a bit more explanation if audited, but the certainly felt that participation here was in line with the intent of that portion of the law.

This has been an anecdote about a particular conversation that I had with a member of the New Mexico Board. A different member or a different board may have completely different opinions. Have your own conversation.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

(OP)
But would not the explicit (demonstrable) contributions you are making by reading, editing, writing, and contributing to a "organized professional engineering ethics forum" in public (because few people write on-line compared to the numbers reading on-line now and in the future!), not be "professional development" in engineering ethics?

Now, it would be a stretch to say - "Well, I used about 30 hours reading about engineering problems and ethics on-line" to claim 30 hours on-line training; but that is not the case here. Here, editing and writing on-line contributions towards the 1 or 2 hours needed for continuing registration in ethics.

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

That is basically it, but the exception was that eng-tips.com Professional Ethics forum could not be the ONLY ethics PDH claimed. I had to find another hour somewhere.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

Use eng-tips as a tech guide if you must, but I dont think it should count as PDH's. I'm not saying that the information on this site is necessarily wrong; however, there's nothing that formally regulates the quality of information. You're getting information from anonymous people with unknown qualifications and backgrounds...and in most cases its responses from the same "core" of people who live on this site and quite possibly may have internet addiction problems.

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

2
Yeah, me too.

Many of us here teach classes that satisfy PDH requirements. The single biggest difference is that if I say something really wrong (even dangerous) in a classroom, then the students will most likely write it down as gospel. If I say the same thing here, at least a dozen of my peers will take me to task immediately. I don't know what planet you are coming from, but in my world peer-reviewed trumps pontification every time. I am cheered by the fact that my board agrees with me, not you MainMan10.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

I'm coming from a planet where I know the background of my reviewers. On your planet, you may spend enough time on this site to make a good guess at everyone's capabilities, however, i assure you that you're in the minority.

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

I think that the difference here is that MainMan10 is thinking that folks would be claiming PDH's for coming here and reading. Maybe asking a question or two, getting the answers, and then thinking that, not only do they have an answer to their question, but they might claim some PDH to boot.

What I see from racookepe1978 and zdas4 is that they are the active sharers of technical information. Each technical question that they answer is based on experience, expertise, and (as is certainly my case) some research.

I agree David, that the peer review here is swift and vicious - just as it should be. I suppose that I could sit back, crack open a bottle of scotch, and read a Journal. I may even learn something, if I don't spill. But active participation in a "live" peer-review environment, such as this, is vastly better for both me as a professional, and for the public, for whom I have a sworn duty to protect.

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

"What I see from racookepe1978 and zdas4 is that they are the active sharers of technical information. Each technical question that they answer is based on experience, expertise, and (as is certainly my case) some research."

And that's precisely how you determine whose opinion is valid. You essentially are looking at an online resume, the number of pink stars awarded, the number of years, their ranking in the individual forum MVP listings, etc. Moreover, you'll find that those like racookepe1978 and zdas4 are mostly responders, as opposed to those who only post questions and replies within their own postings. Someone who is, or never has been, helpful, is an unknown quantity and ought to be viewed with suspicion. Their longevity is a testament to their contributions and being peer-reviewed themselves by other users on the site. Someone who routinely gives out false or misleading information will not get many "likes" and may get booted off the site altogether.

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

See? I don't know you. You don't know me. A casual reviewer would read my posts above, read your posts, and form an opinion without knowing either of us. None of what either of us says is in any way binding on anyone. Engineering in its finest form is the analysis of a range of information and reaching an appropriate risk/reward balance. A casual eng-tip.com user can do that. Sitting through a PDH class doesn't begin to do that. I've been to a significant number of classes that qualified for PDH, and I always read the bio of the instructor, but too many times I've gotten to the class and found that the instructor was less than stellar, some are downright worthless, but the class still counts for the PDH without any peer-review at all.

Spending an hour in the eng-tips.com "Professional Ethics" forum brings up cogent discussions of relevant topics that far exceed the quality of the 5 "official" ethics PDH classes I've taken. I don't claim that this forum satisfies all of the ethics PDH requirements for my state, but it should. It is way better than the sanctioned courses.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

Sorry, as someone who doesn't frequent this site that much, it sounds like a stretch. Basing the quality off the number of pink stars that anonymous internet friends give to each other? WOW, it just doesn't seem like something that professionals should do.

As Kyle implied above, you could just as easily document technical discussions with your colleagues while sitting around the lunch-table. There's a reason why states have not allowed that as PDH's. Eng-tips is just a bigger table with a bunch of unknown colleagues; even the janitor can inject his opinion.

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

2
If we were talking about ask.com or yahoo answers where the "best" answer floats to the top and no one ever reads past the second response, I'd say you have a point. Here the "best" answer is left to the reader to assess. All the answers stay (unless they violate the very liberal site rules) and someone looking for information must sort through the chaff to get to the wheat on their own. The purpose of PDH is cause Engineers to THINK about their profession. I can point to hundreds of specific threads on this site that have required me to think about my profession and often (like TGS4) do more than a bit of research to try to ensure that I don't look like a fool in front of my peers. This process has made me a better Engineer than I would be without eng-tips.com and I would hope that that is what the PDH is trying to accomplish.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

I do a lot of work in the area of overpressure protection. My favorite area is the "Safety relief valve engineering (PSV)" forum. I have learned a lot from this, mostly because the questions that are asked are often not covered in formal training courses. Everyone knows how to size a bog standard PSV, but what happens when there is an unusual siuation where the answer (or design methodology) is not covered in the text books, or maybe there is an existing instalation that is not up to scratch, and it is difficult to find a workable solution that does not cost the earth. This is the kind of thing I am interested in and I know I will often get several different perspectives fom people who have "been there, done that" in the PSV forum. Although I dont claim any PDH I find that Eng-tips is one of the most worthwhile sites for engineers that there is. I follow other forums in here as well.
Mainman10 just doesent get it.

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

Quote (loginthetooth)

Although I dont claim any PDH I find that Eng-tips is one of the most worthwhile sites for engineers that there is.

You say I don't get it but you haven't apparently read the subject of this thread. This thread is about claiming PDH's. As I said, the info here is not necessarily wrong, but I dont think it counts toward the formal PDH system. I learn a lot by working under a senior engineer and consulting with fellow co-workers; however, such learning doesn't count for a PDH.

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

There's an option in my province for claiming PDHs for "contributions to knowledge". That's where most of my PDHs would come from in the context of eng-tips (I have an over abundance of hours, so I don't bother, but I suppose that I could).

Really - what's the difference between near-real-time peer review from here and a Journal where you may have pal-review? I think that the responses in this thread alone are enough to convince me that the peer review system here works, probably even better than that of a Journal.

BTW - pathologizing users of a forum is certainly not the way to win friends and influence people.

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

Mainman10: Quote:
...and in most cases its responses from the same "core" of people who live on this site and quite possibly may have internet addiction problems.

Sounds like you are dissing the site to me.

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

Sadly, I'd trust the opinion of "the mass" here more than the majority of engineers I've worked with.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

I was not aware I had an internet addiction problem.  Hmmm....  I guess I'll have to check that our on Web MD.  

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

Yeah, my "addiction" to eng-tips.com has led to over $2 million in billing to companies that have found me through eng-tips.com. I'll take that kind of addiction every day.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

Is everyone really hurting this badly for hours that you need to consider engtips? I am not arguing against this great resource, I am just curious.

I don't have my PE yet, but my colleagues and I go to professional meetings often enough, and get enough free drinks from the open bar that professional development hours are not an issue.

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

Quote: Yeah, my "addiction" to eng-tips.com has led to over $2 million in billing to companies that have found me through eng-tips.com. I'll take that kind of addiction every day.

Good for you; however with a homepage like your's, doing pretty much any sort of marking is going to generate revenue. That is not reason to credit this site with pdh's.

To normal people with average login counts of 0.5 times per day or less, seeing those with over 5 per day is really abnormal. It really questions the legitimacy of eng-tips to be a formal resource that will be accepted by engineering boards.

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

Quote (MainMan10)

with a homepage like your's, doing pretty much any sort of marking is going to generate revenue.
If that's the best counter-argument you can come up, pretty much an ad hominem attack, maybe it's time to consider other avenues. Personally, I think it's pretty sad that you attacked someone's website quality as proof their other arguments don't hold up to scrutiny. You're definitely not winning any friends here...

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

I like your home page, Dan.

I don't have much of a problem with PDH accumulation -- a lot of my time is spent researching something relatively new to me and then preparing and delivering a short course on it.

That said, I still think eng-tips participation is valid for PDH consideration. Printing out a few threads and one's user profile should be ample documentation.

Best to you,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies

RE: PE Training: Eng-Tips Forum

mainman10 - let me fix that for you...

Quote (mainman10 fixed)


To normal people me with an average login counts of 0.5 times per day or less for barely two years and a grand total of 10 LPS, seeing those with over 5 per day, a longevity of more than 11 years and LPS counts of over 1000 is really abnormal. It really questions the legitimacy of my opinion on eng-tips to be a formal resource that will be accepted by engineering boards.

There, that's what I think that you meant to say.

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources