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office-based role
12

office-based role

office-based role

(OP)
hello

I am looking to start an engineering career but not in a production/plant environment or in a greasy environment. Instead I am looking for a clean office based career.

Is this feasible with an HNC only and no experience at all?

Which such roles can you suggest me? Roles that are in demand and pay well, would be preferred.

Thanks!

RE: office-based role

HNC = ?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: office-based role

HNC == http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_National_Certi... a UK thing. I'm guessing that's sort of like an AA or EET degree in the US?

So, yes, it's theoretically possible, but mostly likely the best you might get is doing test in a moderately clean lab environment. Frankly, I'm dumbfounded with your apparent desire to get this sort of work that's "in demand and pay well" without putting in any investment.

TTFN
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RE: office-based role

(OP)
I will invest in getting a BEng/MEng, but I need as soon as possible to secure a job, in order to gather experience, which is more important in my opinion.

But I think there is a misunderstanding: I didn't mean that the first job will pay well, but the prospects with further experience and/or qualifications in the field will lead in a role that pays well.

Also, I would like to note that I exclude civil engineering, as it's the only engineering I don't like.

RE: office-based role

Experience is a definite plus, but I wouldn't delay your eventual degree just to get experience. I don't know how it is in the UK, but getting an internship between school years is often an adequate discriminator.

Obviously, you need to find out:
> what are you good at?
> what makes you the happiest?
> what can pay your bills?
> what actually has a shortage of people
> will your personality be a "cultural fit" to a given company

Naturally, all of these may be mutually exclusive. I think that it would unlikely that the answers you get here will lead you in a specific direction, given the diversity of disciplines here. I would scour the employment sites, like Monster.com, or even LinkedIn to see what types jobs are available and whether I can see myself doing a given job.

TTFN
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RE: office-based role

(OP)
reed.co.uk is the website I research alot, as it provides info about salaries and applications posted

but I can't figure out if it's an office based job or not

for example C&I engineering, is it 80% office-based as I imagine?
pump engineer in oil industry?
maintenance engineer in food industry?
etc

RE: office-based role

Jobs that involve 100% office/lab work unless you are very lucky are things like CAE, design, CAD, technical inspection and so on. If a job description includes the words process, maintenance, production, assembly or field then it will be mostly in the big scary factory or outdoors.

Guessing you are in the UK, I think you'll find the openings for interesting work for a year or two are few and far between if you have an HNC only, unless you are good at CAD.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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RE: office-based role

I would estimate http://www.reed.co.uk/jobs/c-i-project-engineer/23... at probably 50%+ office work, but I'm just guessing based on the deliverables.

Unless the word "design" or "develop" or "analyze" or synonyms thereof are in the job description, it'll have lower probability of being a desk job.. Your other two examples are clearly field repair or testing types of jobs.

TTFN
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RE: office-based role

When you say "clean office based career" do you literally mean 100% office based in which case you are massively limiting your potential options. If you aren't willing to leave the hallowed office to help build a prototype, or help test a prototype, or answer a drawing query in the machine shop, or help trouble shoot a problem in production... then give up now.

If on the other hand you mean 'mostly' office based then things open up a bit. I've spent most of my career at a desk but also time in labs, on production floor at customer sites, at supplier sites at testing ranges...

From a Mechanical point of view the CAD work Greg mentions would be the obvious path so look for Designer/Draftsman/CAD technician or similar roles. These days I'm not sure how many fresh HNC chaps get to do much in depth analysis but I could be wrong.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: office-based role

Most engineers in Canada are quite familiar with HNC. Hockey Night in Canada is a national Saturday Night institution.

That said, the short answer to your actual question is 'yes, it's possible'.

RE: office-based role

3
If you really don't want to ever leave an office to go to a big, scary, greasy place where work is actually done, then you should probably get your Engineering degree, immediately enroll in either law school or an MBA program because no one ever lets MBA's or Solicitors visit a place where work is done.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

RE: office-based role

I would not hire an engineer for a mostly office-type job who did not want to go to the field/plant/shop/etc. I recommend you rethink your career.

Good luck,
Latexman

Technically, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water.

RE: office-based role

UK based engineer perspective...

Get a job, any job in engineering. Do the HNC on day release or at night school.

Even if you have to do manual work, it won't be for ever and would make you a more well rounded engineer. Then you can do the office based job you crave.

I wouldn't employ someone who was so fixed on desk based work. The best engineers have experience of office and manual work.

There is nothing wrong with getting your hands dirty.

HPost
BEng (Hons) CEng MIMechE

RE: office-based role

Look at medical regulatory or design & development, IE risk management, ver/val protocols and testing, documentation, quality systems management, etc etc.

No end of paperwork. Might be just what you're looking for.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

RE: office-based role

(OP)
thanks for your replies

but HNC (certificate) options aren't that specialized
I must choose from: mechanical, process, chemical, control&instrumentation, electrical&electronics, etc
should I choose for a specific one that would lead me to mostly office-based career or a general one and then pursue an office-based career?

RE: office-based role

What is your reason for being so adamantly office-based? Do you have mobility limitations for being on-site? Do you have a dirt-phobia? Are you concerned about transportation issues? Just trying to understand.

You can look at something all day on paper and never actually get it until you're in the field, messing with it yourself and listening to the people who use your item. I design houses, so I also volunteer for Habitat for Humanity (www.habitat.org) and have learned so much about what actually matters, construction-wise. I also know folks are getting a safe, affordable place to live.

Unless you have a serious issue precluding you from being easily on site, then like others said, you need to rethink your career ideas.

RE: office-based role

(OP)
the main reasons I would like to be office-based, is that I am concerned about health effects of emissions and noise

RE: office-based role

Even at that, each of the disciplines cited have widely varying degrees of outside or plant work. Do you consider laboratory or test lab work in the same context? At the minimum, anything that you design will require you to spend some amount of time out of your office. If you're concerned about noise, then don't pick a field with heavy machinery, but I would bet that your hearing is mostly likely already trashed from listening to loud music. "Emissions" is so broad a term that even an office environment could be loaded with "emissions" since your furniture and carpeting are likely, if new, to be emitting all sorts of interesting vapors. A "new car smell" is largely from emissions from the plastics and upholstery.

While CAD was suggested, our company's CAD is all done by MEs who will need to go to the lab to verify fit checks, or visit vendors to determine whether the vendors are capable of producing their designs. We have no one who is solely a CAD designer, because even the most mundane parts need to meet mechanical requirements that require analysis by an engineer.

TTFN
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RE: office-based role

Process engineering might well lead into a career which is reasonably well paid and relatively clean. You will end up on site, but not often in a 'dirty hands' role. Credible process engineers do, however, usually have a 'dirty hands' background.

PLC or DCS work might be a possibility from either a C&I or electrical & electronic HNC. Again, fairly clean and in reasonable demand. Most PLC work will see you on the shop floor during commissioning or fault-finding, often working with maintenance personnel.

The pump engineer role in your link is specialised and will need a fair bit of experience in the field, plus it is nuclear industry which just ramps up the requirements a bit further.

RE: office-based role

(OP)
a maintenance engineer in a food factory, how much time he spends in the factory, exposed to the cold environment of the refrigerators and the noise of the machines?
also, what does he actually do in a 12hr shift? isn't this working period exhausting?

RE: office-based role

I was also wondering how Hockey Night in Canada made it onto Eng-tips.

A job that is 100% office base is the exact job I do absolutely everything possible to avoid. I agree with someone's earlier comment that said you are severely limiting your career potential.

I've been in plants that have less emissions than offices, so be careful what kind of office you pick.

RE: office-based role

Or you could simply marry into money, and forego the shortcomings and drudgery of work altogether!

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

RE: office-based role

If noise is a big concern, you should narrow things down a bit more. Make sure you find a job where your office has a door. Cubicles might still be too loud.

RE: office-based role

I initially wanted a job in a highrise with my own office, a panoramic view, my own billiards table, espresso machine, stocked bar, jukebox with all of my favorite 60's and 70's rock, a secretary, and the "inbox" emptying directly into the circular file. Oh yes, mid to high 6 figure salary, as well.

But . . . . then I realized that if I actually desired employment, this list quickly declined from "requirements" to "fat chance".

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

RE: office-based role

I am concerned about health effects of emissions and noise

Then buy some ear plugs & a gas mask.

Seriously, it may seem we're being a$$holes but you're coming across as an entitles little individual who thinks they're too good to get their hands dirty.

I think you need to do some serious research and soul searching by yourself to at least narrow things down a bit before you come asking questions.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: office-based role

Have you considered finance? The engineering culture tends to favor hands-on in-the-dirt experience.

RE: office-based role

So your big "concerns" are noise, possible fugitive emmission exposure, and grease. You should be an accountant.

RE: office-based role

engeeneer (Specifier/Regulator)
Having worked in the UK on the shop floor and in the office, and knowing the culture there , once your work associates find out that you do, not, like visiting the shop floor. Guess where you will find yourself ending up.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: office-based role

And here I was willing to work for free to get out in the field at one of my past employers. Getting dirty is the fun part of being an engineer. Get your BS and you will realize that you don't want to sit in front of a computer all day long.

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer
http://bwengr.com | http://bwstructuralengineer.com | http://bwcivilengineer.com

RE: office-based role

A UK based process chemical/engineer here. I'm more worried about RSI and weight gain from being stuck in the office than I am about chemical or noise exposure when I'm on plant.

If as an engineer you have people working to do something for you that you wouldn't do yourself because of a health and safety concern, then you really should not be asking them to do it.

Matt

RE: office-based role

Think about that office situation for the long term. Where is your desk? Where is a window to outside? After years looking at a calendar on the wall, no window and the same old place, getting outside will be a welcome change. If you want to be happy in your work, you probably will have to make some changes in your requirements. For example, what about those around you that may have varied duties which get them off to another office or to a job site now and then? There you sit getting frustrated with your non-changing situation that you created. Is your fear of civil engineering because of the crude language out there rather than the dirt? I suspect so. The air out there is usually fresh. If noisy, use ear plugs. Another thing, those stuck in the office seldom move up the ladder to associate or owner, where the money is. If you happen to be female, in the states at least, you have many perks from government promotions that males don't have, yet it requires a variety of work situations to round you out to take advantage of the perks.

You have heard from many voices of experience. That's something I wish I had before I jumped into this work. Don't dismiss our words as meaningless. If you do, years later you will find out we were right. Good luck. Engineering can be fun.

RE: office-based role

I work for a consulting firm doing system planning for power utilities. I am away from the desk and in the field 1-2 days per month, and only for meetings. After 6 years of doing this, I'm actually searching for a job where I am out of the office. It gets pretty boring. But, if that's what you want, consulting could be an avenue.

RE: office-based role

Worried about the environment and noise?

....wear earplugs, a jacket, a dust mask, etc. Plenty of PPE to protect yourself.

How do you even leave the house?

If you can't get dirty, don't be an engineer.

______________________________________________________________________________
This is normally the space where people post something insightful.

RE: office-based role


"I am looking to start an engineering career but not in a production/plant environment or in a greasy environment. Instead I am looking for a clean office based career."

"the main reasons I would like to be office-based, is that I am concerned about health effects of emissions and noise."

"a maintenance engineer in a food factory, how much time he spends in the factory, exposed to the cold environment of the refrigerators and the noise of the machines?
also, what does he actually do in a 12hr shift? isn't this working period exhausting?"

Given this brief outline of your persona, I think the feedback has concluded you are severely limiting yourself in the event you took an engineering route. It may be best to rethink your career path.

Your aspirations are more in line with that of an HR professional.



RE: office-based role

deltawhy (Electrical)
Whilst I can see your reasons for replying as you do, I would not wish that kind of HR person on my worst enemy.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: office-based role

haha quite true berkshire

RE: office-based role

I see a lot of engineers here critisizing the young lad. I'm in mining and it can get scary / sketchy working in industry so i understand somewhat, especially if it was a bad experience of a loved one. For me it started in the field and after gaining experience i was transferred to head office where i travel 15% of the time.

If you've tried working in the field before and feel its not for your, i would encourage you to give it one more shot with a different company / location. Starting your career in the field is the best way to learn. Generally in 1st world countries, industry is so safety proof that even children can work, give it another go!

RE: office-based role

You could do drafting, which meets your requirements of being in an engineering field without a degree or leaving the office.

RE: office-based role

If this is what the UK tax payer is getting for years of expensive schooling then I fear for my pension. No wonder employers are keen to take on trained EU staff is this is the attitude they have to put up with.

RE: office-based role

I even weld from time to time while being paid as an engineer - just don't want to lose my skills I acquired during my first two years of working.
Also, "my" weldors appreciate my way of doing things - as I know both sides of the story.

Get dirty or get out - you really don't want to know what "they" say about engineers who never come out to the production factory and let the people handle/solve the problems they created (by not having the necessary practical experience)...

RE: office-based role

Office work these days likely means a computer type job. Healthwise, sitting all day and looking at that screen is not an activity (or lack thereof) that the body likes. Indoor air may contain radon, fragments of asbestos insulation, formaldehyde glue gas and even higher levels of CO2. Then, out jogging to get better air, those crummy automobiles are spewing more harmful stuff. Gosh, it seems the modern world is full of risks. I'm glad I won't have to be your supervisor. I'd have to be looking for a replacement shortly after you came on board. On second thought, in the hiring interview you would be shown the door. Maybe an understanding relative can take you on as an employee.

RE: office-based role

Almost the same in Hawthorne, the start of the runway was across the street from the parking lot, but a 3-story building was next in line, so planes would have to come in over the golf course, fly over the street until they passed the building, and then did a quick left/right to line up with the runway. All in about 1/3 of a mile. 33°55.384'N 118°19.332'W if you're curious.

What's REALLY amazing is that the Marines actually landed an F18 on that same runway for an air show, but it took the pilot a 3rd pass to land it, and there was only ONE arresting cable. The runway is less than a mile long. As it was, the F18 stopped not that far from end of runway the fence, since the arresting cable didn't have an aircraft carrier attached to it.

TTFN
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RE: office-based role

Office-based - 9 hours sitting still, staring at a computer screen and breating re-cycled air probably isn't that good for you.
Any job will have it's health effects, you just need to be aware of them and look after yourself properly.

All that really matters is to enjoy what you're doing, thats what keeps work great!

www.jcb.com
NX 7.5 with TC 8.3

RE: office-based role

(OP)
guys, I re-read the entire post and I wasn't able to find specific career choices for an office-based engineer role

apart from 'design engineer', which afaik needs more than an HNC/HND

can't you suggest me any roles?

from my research I think also an automation engineer won't leave the office but rarely, am I right?

any more suggestions?

thanks

RE: office-based role

Software engineer

RE: office-based role

"Designer/Draftsman/CAD technician or similar roles" from my earlier post.

In case you haven't worked it out yet, in the US (where many of the more active members of this forum are based) the use of the word engineer generally implies at least bachelors level education, and in many sectors to use engineer you may need the equivalent of CEng.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: office-based role

>>>from my research I think also an automation engineer won't leave the office but rarely, am I right?<<<

You are wrong.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: office-based role

Our automation engineers spend a LOT of time out of the office and in the plants. We have 2-3 of them in China for a few months right now for commissioning/start-up.

Good luck,
Latexman

Technically, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water.

RE: office-based role

Ditto. I've never seen an Automation Engineer that was worth shooting that preferred the office to the field.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

RE: office-based role

The guys and gals out there in the boonies in those scuzzy sites that have to break the ice off of their ATVs to get into the well sites, armed with a company-issued rifle to defend themselves against the bears that have found their way onto the lease - before they can even think about trying to figure out why the pumpjack just quit or the stupid air compressor won't start - those are the folks that the guys like me in the downtown office need to understand in order to help them keep the oil or gas flowing. To a person, those are the same folks who you will learn the most from. They are the people you need to keep safe, so that they can go home somewhat before midnight and tuck their kids in before getting a late night sandwich and five hours of sleep before doing it all over again tomorrow.

RE: office-based role

Engeeneer:

After over 50 posts on this thread, and maybe 99% of the comments are not real encouraging, wouldn't you think that maybe your quest is in vain? Also, a number of the posts show the advantages of not being in the office all the time. Those all are from experience comments. You are lucky to have such a response only meant to help you.

RE: office-based role

Well...I should apologize a bit.

I too feel that the years spent in university, getting a degree in an applied science (engineering) did entitle me to something more than the grunt jobs that the guys who smoked weed and dropped out of high school ended up with. That said, I look back on it now and I can honestly say that nothing taught me more about engineering than working in the field with the men and women who were ultimately left in charge of running the stuff that I simply drew. I have picked up hunks of clay in the field so that I now understand what "...1725 with 11% moisture..." looks, smells and feels like. Otherwise, it's just "...zone 2 fill..." - whatever THAT means on a drawing. I now understand why a welder would rather put a vent valve at the top of a 30" SCH 80 300# riser for hydro testing instead of just cracking open the blind at the top. I now know exactly what I am asking a guy to do when I call for an in-situ inspection, under mask, of all 30 bubble cap trays in an erected condensate stabilizer. I know how to turn a mounting flange inside out for a burner in an operating CO boiler to avert a site-wide outage at a major refinery (Syncrude in that instance).

My message, similar to that from others, is that it's the field work that makes you an engineer, at least to some extent. It's the best way to understand the impact that your work has on the people who inherit the finished product.

RE: office-based role

Curiously, none of the types of EEs and MEs and CSs I work with seem to have responded to the OP. In my industry, "field" experience is simply the final testing of a sensor on an actual platform, be it a tank or a plane. Other than that, most of our lab work is in an A/C'd office lab environment. HOWEVER, every last man and woman has a 4-yr college degree. Our noisiest environment is when the vibration testing equipment is running, but only a few people need to be there continuously, primarily the test engineers, and that only occurs in the second or third year of a development contract.

The last time I was in a factory environment was 26 yrs ago, at a semiconductor fab. While the diffusion furnaces are a bit noisy, the biggest health risk in a semiconductor fab are the nasty chemicals and gases, lots of fun acids, and lots of toxic, nerve-agent, gases.

TTFN
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RE: office-based role

I haven't responded yet mostly because I felt my response would be considered harsh. I simply cannot comprehend anyone who has an interest in engineering of any sort who also does not have an interest in getting their hands dirty from time to time. As a programmer, I spend the majority of my time in an office, but I definitely enjoy getting out in the field... not only do I get the satisfaction of seeing my work in action, but I get to refine my own development process by watching how the end user interacts with the equipment.

That said, I'm somewhat of a pansy for dirt. Oh, I'll get down in the hole and dig it myself, if need be, but the moment it's done I want to wash my hands. I'll full-fisted grab a gear covered in packing grease to get it onto a machine... but I'm immediately grabbing a towel to wipe it off of my hands. From that standpoint, I do not enjoy being "in the field"... but if you can't suck it up for such a minor inconvenience, you should seriously reconsider if engineering of any sort is truly your calling.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: office-based role

3
Engeeneer,

this is a general reply, consolidating my thoughts regarding your posts.

Safety:
PPE do work. They should be properly used to be effective. They are not magic, their effectiveness ranging from somewhere in the mid to high 90's (seatbelts and condoms) to sex panther cologne (90 % effective 60% of the time.). If you breed, you may have a son who enjoys whacking your steel toes with a hammer.

If I could catalog my various injuries and their sources without calling them grievances it would be such.

Concussions: Several, one severe. Causes range from passing out after an exciting shower to bringing a compact car to a collision. Bringing a bicycle to a race. Bringing a bicycle to an automobile collision. None occupationaly related.

Chronic illnesses: Hypertension -> Genes. Athsma- genes, smoky clubs, poorly ventilated darkrooms. Occasionally triggered at work/in industrial settings. Damaged feet- neglect of broken toe. Thoracic outlet syndrome- symptoms range from nothing to the sensation of burning wires in my arms or hot rubber bands at my wrists. Cause- mouse & keyboard operation- DESK JOBS.

Acute injuries: 50-100 sutures due to accidental laceration/incision. All recreational, or working w/ tools at home. Tissue crushing- working as a roadie, healed.

Impatience/short temper with stupid, willful ignorance.- Desk jobs in tech support & engineering.

Toxic, simmering frustration- Not doing what I liked, not being creative.

So strangely the three things that afflict me most- dislike of stupid, thoracic outlet syndrome, and joint damage, 2 come from desk jobs.

So do what you like, don't let the tail wag the dog.


RE: office-based role

As the physiotherapist at work said, the worst thing ever invented for backs and arms was desk jobs.

Strictly speaking I think he'll find that shifting 50 kg grain sacks up ladders wasn't exactly good for backs.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: office-based role

Eccentric loads on column structures suck. That's why a bale of shingles on each shoulder is preferred, if your discs can take it.

RE: office-based role

You may have to start as a technician of some sort first and then demonstrate your desire to move in to an Engineering role.
If you are reading a job description and don't know we=hether it is an office based job or not then why not enquire. Or better yet apply for the job have an interview. You can always turn the job down if it's not what you want and you will getting to grips with interviews for engineering roles.

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