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Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations
8

Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

(OP)
Hello,

Here's my issue. I'm an EIT who thought about making some extra cash on freelance job sites. I've been offered a job to design a retaining wall, but I'm having second thoughts because I don't want to put myself at risk legally.

Am I liable for a design if it is unsealed? Am I allowed to accept payment for the design since I'm not professionally registered?

They're just calculations, what they do with them is their responsibility. Is this a valid argument?


Thanks.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Yes, yes, no.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

You'd probably be guilty of practicing engineering without a license. State registration boards frown upon this.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

"Engaging in the practice or offer to practice of engineering or surveying in this jurisdiction without being licensed in accordance with the provisions of this Act" - Grounds for disciplinary action NCEES Model law.

Not only should you not do it, it is likely illegal.

If there is a failure, you will be sued. You have provided a service in which you received compensation, so you are liable.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations


If I had to explain the sealing process simply :

Stamping and Sealing authenticate the document.

When you don't seal, your don't authenticate the document but you are still responsible for the design.

It don't go both ways...

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

(OP)
Why would I be liable as opposed to the PE who signs and seals the plans?

Let's say I was being paid by an undergraduate engineer who needed calculations for a retaining wall design homework. I'm able to accept payment for that, correct? What if he then took them and built that retaining wall and died. This is extreme, but what I'm wondering is where is the line drawn from when I'm liable to when I'm not.

What's the point of a stamp and seal if you're still liable?

Thanks for your replies.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

A lot depends on the height of the retaining wall. Many building codes require an Engineer's participation if the wall is 4 feet high, or higher.
Less than 4 feet... an Engineer's input is not need.

www.SlideRuleEra.net idea
www.VacuumTubeEra.net r2d2

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

(OP)
It's 20ft.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

If you're working under the supervision of a PE, that's a different matter, but that's not what you said.

Look up your state's engineering rules and laws and see what they say. Most states have them online. The rules vary some from state to state.
There may be exemptions that cover your case, look and see.
Generally, whether you get paid or not wouldn't be the issue, but whether you did the work or not. It's like driving without a license, it's not wrong because you get paid for it, but just because you're doing it.
A lot of state rules prohibit "offering to practice" engineering without a license, require licensing of firms (firm license) and sole proprietors (firm or individual license), which would prevent an unlicensed person from offering to do the work, even if it would be subcontracted or sealed by somebody else.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

I guess I am confused. If you are working with a PE, under his/her supervision, he/she is the responsible party. I was under the impression you were providing calculations / design without a license and without the supervision of a PE.

The hypothetical undergraduate scenario is absurd.

On you final point / question, perhaps you should read up on the subject.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

(OP)
For this to be built, I'm almost certain a PE will need to stamp the drawings. I myself would only be providing the design, and no I would not be working under a PE for this project.

The client has to get the plans sealed for it to be built. Would it not be that PE's responsibility then?

How is the hypothetical any more absurd than a contractor using unstamped calculations to build a structure? They're just numbers on paper. I feel as though without a stamp, there's no legitimacy to them so why is it my liability?

Anyways, I am not willing to risk any legal or ethical issues. Therefore I guess I am forced to decline the job.

Thanks for the replies.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

"For this to be built, I'm almost certain a PE will need to stamp the drawings. I myself would only be providing the design, and no I would not be working under a PE for this project."

For the above to happen, the PE would be breaking the law by "plan stamping". While I would like to assume the owner would not find such an individual, they might. The PE would be responsible.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

If you went to school to be an engineer, you should know better than to even ask.

Also, why would your client hire you to design it, only to have to hire an engineer to check your design?

But, on the flip side, if you design it, and its shown on some drawings, so engineer stamps it, he is responsible. But, if its built, and something happens, and it wansnt stamped, Im sure the owner will whip out your calcs to his lawyer quicker than you can shred your copy.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

"Let's say I was being paid by an undergraduate engineer who needed calculations for a retaining wall design homework. I'm able to accept payment for that, correct? What if he then took them and built that retaining wall and died. This is extreme, but what I'm wondering is where is the line drawn from when I'm liable to when I'm not."

First, let's address the ethics of doing a student's homework, and getting paid to do it. If a professor, or a state engineering board, caught wind of this, the student would be disciplined or expelled, and the state board would likely refuse to allow you to license because of ethics concerns. Thinking like this will not serve you well as an engineer.

Second, doing any kind of engineering which normally requires a PE or SE, while not under direct, close, and continuing supervision of a licensed engineer, in prohibited in most states. There are exceptions for certain government agencies and within the confines of a company (such as designing fixtures in a manufacturing facility for use in the facility.)

As to liability, you are responsible for everything you do. That does not mean that people with less ethics than they should won't do something beyond your control, such as building a legitimate design in a different place, or otherwise not fulfilling all requirements of the design.
In many states, unfinished designs must have words to that effect, shown on each sheet, such as "This document is released for the purpose of (Examples: interim review, mark-up, drafting) under the authority of (Example: Leslie H. Doe, P.E. 0112) on (date). It is not to be used for (Examples: construction, bidding, permit) purposes."

Now, if someone wants a rough design so they can see whether they want to pursue a project, there is nothing wrong with you helping them get enough information to make that decision. But if you mess that up, just as if you were licensed, they can still come back to you for compensation because you did not do the job correctly. The only thing that limits an engineer's liability is his/her insurance and the contract under which they are performing work.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Jerehmy,

A 20' tall retaining wall is nothing to be trifled with. It is a very substantial structure with many things that could go wrong and do so dramatically and even suddenly. This is best left up to very experienced engineers. Run, do not walk, away from it.

You'll have plenty of time over the course of your career to work up to stuff such as that so hang in there. But in the mean time, start small and more importantly, start under the tutelage of an experienced engineer...the grayer the hair the better. If you're simply looking for some side work for extra cash my suggestion is to limit it to drafting at this point.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

You can do the calculations under the direct supervision of a licensed Professional Engineer in the state of the project, and the PE would have to seal and sign the calcs. Hopefully the PE has experience in the design of 20' retaining walls, and you have a geotechnical report with all the appropriate values and do not choose to pull the design values out of you a##. smile

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

3
My understanding of your scenario:
1. You would be hired by an owner to provide a design (calcs and drawings) to them for a fee.
2. The owner would take your design effort and get a PE to review/etc. your design and stamp/sign the documents.
3. The wall would then be built by the owner via a contractor of some sort.

Item 1 -
You would be practicing engineering without a license and without direct supervision of a PE or SE.
You would be breaking the law and face possible fines.

Item 2 -
The PE could review the design completely and under the law sign/seal the design.
However, they would be required by most engineering acts to THOROUGHLY review the calculations pretty much as though they were designing the wall from scratch
as they would be fulfilling their engineering duty by watching out for the public safety and welfare.
If the PE just performs a cursory review and stamps/signs the plans they would be breaking the law.

Item 3 -
The wall would most likely have to be built with a PE stamp in most major cities, towns, etc. Some areas you could possibly get by without it but not many.

Finally - The issue of liability has some bearing - but not all - on who signs/seals the plans. Ultimately the PE would bear the brunt of scrutiny in a lawsuit if the wall fell/collapsed.
However, anyone can sue anyone. You would be at risk unless you have some sort of limitation of liability written into your agreement with the client... a hold harmless clause or some
agreement that states that the client would seek out a PE to take final responsibility.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

If you are an EIT, you have the address of your state's Professional Affairs Bureau or equivalent. Look there for legality and penalties paid by non registered engineers working unsupervised.

Personal liability, do you have liability insurance? If there is a defect in the finished wall, everyone gets sued, can you afford your lawyer?

Michael.
"Science adjusts its views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved." ~ Tim Minchin

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

It's amazing how many people are willing to put their career on the line to make a few thousand bucks. Every single person responded that this was a bad idea, but the OP seems to still be fighting it every step of the way.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

JAE nailed it. Now go read your engineering law and don't think about doing this again.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

(OP)
TXStructural - That was a hypothetical situation for determining where do you draw the line on who's responsible. I never did any student's homework, it was a made up situation.


Steellion - I'm asking questions for clarification and to learn. If you want to call that "fighting it", so be it. But I'm not arguing for arguments sake. And it was for 5$/hour, not a couple thousands bucks.



To everyone else, thanks for your responses. I guess I'll do something else for extra cash :).

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

$5.00 per hour? This has to be a typo...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

(OP)
Not a typo.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

WHAT?! You could make more than that at McDonald’s, without the liability issues and the ethical quandry.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Jerehmy,

Much earlier in my career, after I had accomplished some things, I tried doing something on my own and quickly got in over my head. Thankfully there were no serious or long-term repercussions. As I backed out of the the situation a much more senior engineer took me aside and told me essentially, "Hey fellow, don't beat yourself up over it, many of us have tried stuff like that; you're not the first."

Jerehmy, you have shown a willingness to listen and that bodes well for you. Keep that up and I predict you'll have a long and successful career. I often wonder if the best engineers aren't also the ones who've made the most mistakes while living to tell about it. Their experience came at a price. Or to state it another way, because of their past mistakes they know what minefield to avoid and know the seriousness of what they're attempting to do. Just waxing philosophically about it...

Anyway, good for you for being willing to listen.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

If the situation is real, and that is all you intended to charge, legalities aside, you are really demeaning the engineering profession here, as a whole. You really need to rethink what you are doing.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

It sounds to me like he's just new into it and some slimy builder tried to take advantage of him all the way around. Jerehmy, you're worth more than that; don't let them do that to you, bro.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

(OP)
Steellion - I didn't accept the job. I questioned the liability and ethics once I had an offer. I couldn't find anything sufficient in my scouring of the internet so I asked here. Some of what I found said to put "Prelimary, not for construction" or something along those lines on it but I still wondered about liability.

In the freelance market you get jobs based on good reviews. The only way to get good reviews is to do jobs. So for someone starting out its near impossible to get a job. So this was gonna be pretty much pro bono to get a job and a good review.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Why in hell would you ever consider doing ANYTHING as a potential licensed professional engineer for $5.00 per hour, even while still an EI? We are not f%$*&^#g burger flippers. We are professionals. We provide a professional service. We are not a commodity.

As an engineer you will hold a position of responsibility to the public. You need to understand that your opinion is not for sale, your design is not for sale....only your TIME is for sale...and it is worth something. You have spent a lot of time in school. You will have to pass at least 2 licensing exams that most people wouldn't have a prayer of passing. You then carry a significant responsibility to protect the health, safety and welfare of the public. PLEASE understand this or get a job doing something else.

Sorry if I seem harsh, but I've seen our profession decline because we, as professional engineers, have allowed others to treat us like $h!t. The reason they do that is that we don't stand up for being the professionals that we are. Don't bid for projects...don't compromise your intregrity for profit...educate and convince clients that your services can't be done by someone who has not gone through the agony that you've endured as a student, an intern and finally a licensed professional.

...stepping off soapbox.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

(OP)
A couple reasons.

1) I love engineering, I could do it dawn til dusk.
2) I'm broke. Haven't been out of school a year yet and owe 160k in student loans on an engineering salary, so any extra money doing something I enjoy is fine with me.

But I get it now, that's why I asked here first. I'm new, I was unsure about liability and ethics of this situation, so I asked.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Please continue asking... before you act.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Jerehmy...we've all been there. Stick it out. Glad you had enough foresight to ask.
Best of luck and stay involved with Eng-Tips. We beat each other up on occasion, but in general you'll get more insight from this group of misfits than you'll get anywhere else.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Let it never be said that engineers are not emotional. yinyang

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Jerehmy,

One other thing: I my career in the midst of a construction recession; there were very few jobs to be had. I was able to land a couple of construction administration jobs (where I was probably of negative net value) and I had those jobs for a couple of years. It was a good intro into the construction industry but I knew I needed to get design experience before it all got away from me. So, when a design job became available and they asked for salary requirements I intentionally low-balled my offer to make sure I was considered. It appealed to the owner's greed (or business sense, if you will, I don't mean it in a bad way). Anyway, it worked and he hired me over probably more knowledgeable applicants.

And I don't regret it for one moment. Like you I love engineering so I did what I had to do to get into the game. I had to make sacrifices to do that, of course. I had to live with my parents and I didn't have any extra cash for any luxury item. But again, it got me started and later I was able to command much more money. So I understand where you're coming from. Don't be discouraged, there will always be a place for people willing to work hard.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Whoops, that top line should read, "I started my career..."

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

I am still hung up on retaining wall less than 20ft not needing a design....

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Yea... really... Just did a couple, and they were huge...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Jerehmy:

You just gave Ron a coronary.  You owe him a BIG bottle of scotch!  rofl3

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

(OP)
Scotch makes me sad inside. I like designing wood, not eating it haha. What kind of scotch ?

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

I think OSHA lets you cut a slope of less than 20ft without an 'engineered' design.

Bad scotch makes me sad inside. Good Scotch is yummy, yummy yummy yummy.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Quote (Ron)

Why in hell would you ever consider doing ANYTHING as a potential licensed professional engineer for $5.00 per hour, even while still an EI? We are not f%$*&^#g burger flippers. We are professionals. We provide a professional service. We are not a commodity.

No kidding. I doubt the same guy would try to pay an intern doctor $5/hr if he had an illness that needed to be treated. Or a first-year law student to help him out with some legal trouble.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Nothing less than a case of Johnny Walker Red Label.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

A little Jack Daniel's would be nice! Just keepin' it in the SE USA!!
Thank you Mike...JW Red is acceptable as well!

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Yea. You have to earn more than $5 per hour to afford a case of JWR. 2thumbsup

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Laphroig

dcarr - yummy is the word.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Looks like the Scotch has taken effect. Have a good weekend all...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

160k in student loans?

That's insane. I feel sorry for the youngsters graduating today with such a financial boat anchor around their neck from day 1 - especially in this economy and this society where engineers are often treated like a commodity.

My advice to you Jerehmy is to work hard and study hard until you get your PE - and then continue working hard and studying hard for the rest of your career. Never stop asking questions. Read and understand every page of ACI 318, AISC 360, ASCE 7 and all of the other codes and standards applicable what you do.

Even after you get your PE license, be careful about taking on freelance work. I am surprised that no one mentioned this (perhaps they did - I did not read every post), but if you are working for someone full time and you do free lance work on your own, if you get sued (PE or no PE), then your employer may be dragged into the lawsuit. Were I work there is a strict prohibition against anyone freelancing because of this.

I know that I am late to the conversation, but you are like a clueless person strolling through a minefield - completely unaware of the danger. The older I get, the more I realize how little I know. (I have been a PE for 33 years.) I long for the days when I was young and knew everything!

That you asked a question on this forum is a good sign. Good for you.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Pretty much everything said that needed to be, but may I add:

Are you any good at CAD or any other software? Perhaps you can do some more legit moonlighting doing CAD for a structural engineer, which would be a great learning experience and should pay you better than minimum wage. Saddle up with a solo engineer or small practice and make yourself available on the weekends or at night to do some "grunt work", while keeping your ethics and dignity well intact you can learn from an experienced PE. However, like someone else mentioned, your current employer may frown upon any moonlighting activities.

Don't ever sell yourself short. Shaving a few bucks off to get a job is one thing, but don't be someone's $!#*%, you are worth too much and have worked too hard.

And what is with the oversight of bourbon here fellas? If you like your whiskey filtered through a grill, errr, maple charcoal, then go ahead and drink Jack. If you like overpriced whiskey aged in recycled bourbon barrels, be my guest and drink Scotch. Dollar for dollar, hard to beat Kentucky's finest. And no matter your drink of choice, when in Kentucky you should check out some of the distillery tours. Fun for any engineer, double fun if you like whiskey, I mean BOURBON!

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Go get a part time job at HD or Lowes. work in the electrical or plumbing department, you will always need to know that stuff, its usually mindless work, and (used too) pay ok. Just part time 16-20 hrs a week you can earn 12-15K.

That will help you pay your loans down, and thru contacts, can meet some contractors that you can (in the future) do work for.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

To be clear, Bourbon is also yummy yummy yummy. But like Ron Burgandy said, "I love Scotch. Scotchy Scotch Scotch. Here it goes down, down in my belly". Bourbon has too many syllables to work in that song.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Quote:

160k in student loans?

That's insane. I feel sorry for the youngsters graduating today with such a financial boat anchor around their neck from day 1 - especially in this economy and this society where engineers are often treated like a commodity.
Much of that is a self-inflicted wound. Being just 10+ years removed from school myself, I know a lot has changed; but a lot hasn't.

I was two years at community college before I knew I wanted to be an engineer. I spent another year there picking up prereqs before I went to university. Three years later I was an EIT. Grand total debt: $20K. Today I think I'm in the hole maybe $3K. It's at 3%. I pay the minimum. That was all on my dime with a small scholarship.

I worked full time while going to community college. I worked 60 hour work weeks at a lumberyard over my summer breaks while at university; and 20 hour weeks while school was in session. Oh yeah, and I lived in a dive off campus. It was hard, and not your "typical" college experience. But I don't think that that's worth an extra $100K.

Kids these days? I'm not old enough for that.

Quote:

Even after you get your PE license, be careful about taking on freelance work. I am surprised that no one mentioned this (perhaps they did - I did not read every post), but if you are working for someone full time and you do free lance work on your own, if you get sued (PE or no PE), then your employer may be dragged into the lawsuit. Were I work there is a strict prohibition against anyone freelancing because of this.
As for moonlighting with your own license in the future, make sure you fully disclose what you are doing to your employer. They might be slightly displeased that you are lightening their workload. Even if you take the greatest of care to not look at those emails, answer those phone calls, peek at those references/codes while under their roof; the potential for a perceived conflict of interest is ever present.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

(OP)
Spartan5 - 4 years undergrad was 60k. 2 years Grad school at Lehigh was 90k. 10k interest consolidated at repayment = 160k. A lot of my friends I graduated with are over the 100k if they didn't have a scholarship.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Man things are different now. Went to school as a freshman at $115.00 per quarter plus books and left after six years and grad school at $180.00 per quarter plus books. My full time summer job and part time job during school paid for my tuition, but I was able to live at home. That made a whole lot of difference.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Sorry but you wasted your money at Grad school.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Jerehmy,

Grad school at Lehigh? Congrats, that's impressive. I see now that I should be asking you for advice. I think you'll do ok...

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

(OP)
ztengguy - My undergrad was Math and Physics, not engineering. So I had no choice but to go to Grad school. I don't want to get into why it happened that way haha.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Whoops, ztengguy's post and mine crossed in the mail. And it looks like we see things a bit differently.smile

Zt, Jerehmy didn't say he studied engineering undergrad. Some people go to liberal arts schools and wind up being drawn to math or physics. For them grad school is a way to get into engineering and is certainly not a waste. But even for those who do study engineering undergrad I wouldn't be too quick to say grad school is a waste, though it certainly can be. But the opportunity to study under some of the gurus at Lehigh at an advanced level in a small class setting...well, it's not something to turn down too hastily.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Oh my, now Jerehmy's and my messages crossed in the mail. But it looks like I called that. I'll now pat myself on the back and go home now that I've gotten my one thing right for the day.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

By the way, Jerehmy, I was a physics grad myself and went to grad school to study engineering. It certainly wasn't a waste in my case, nor will it be, I'm sure, in yours.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

(OP)
Archie,

I don't think so. A lot more job opportunites for engineers than physics majors. I'm glad I went, I just wish I applied myself more in highschool to get a scholarship and knew what I wanted to be sooner. O well

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Im just thinking that you could have received just as good of education at another school, and not paid thru the teeth. Hopefully it pays off and you get out of civil/structural engineering and make some real money, haha.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Ztengguy, I don't think it is appropriate to call engineering graduate school a "waste of money". Many structural engineering firms now won't even consider an applicant that doesn't have an advanced degree. Especially an entry-level employee, especially in this economy where employers can afford to be picky. Also, my state is considering requiring a Master's degree or equivalent to be able to sit for the P.E. exam (those already licensed, of course, would be grandfathered in).

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Although I never got my masters in engineering, the extra two years of study helped to solidify the previous four years, and expand my theoretical and practical thinking abilities. Coupled with over 30 years of experience, it was not wasted.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Wow.. long thread... They beat you up good Jeremy.. But is purely out of sadistic love..

lol

A stupid questions is the one never asked.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

@ steellion, 90K for a graduate degree is a waste of money. My opinion; written down for all to see.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

ZT - perhaps a kinder way to put it is there are less expensive alternatives. Graduate school itself is fine, but graduating with the debt of a med student or attorney without those types of salaries is a rough way to start one's career. That is way more than my sister's 4 years of optometry school cost her. There are two girls in my office who got their master's and had TA positions and got out pretty much break even, from a pretty well respected state university.

I see it as he bought a Mercedes and now he is not liking the payments, doesn't make the car better or worse....

However, is it a WASTE of money?
We are engineers, so lets check the numbers, and there are similar studies out there in Money Magazine and other places that compare a high school grad, a BS degree and a MS Degree. Besides just pay, maybe you get job edges over other candidates and may be more selective in your job choices, and can move up faster. Maybe.

I selected a few terms that I think are conservative, its just for an illustration. Annual interest rates, compounded monthly:

Loan: $160k @ 4%, 30 years. Total payment= $275k

Additional salary over 30 year career, on average, after taxes- $500 per month, invested at 6% in a tax free retirement account:
$500 per month, 30 years. Total= $502k





RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Sorry, but I guess I am not one to sugar coat, just call it as I want.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

(OP)
I didn't have much of a choice in location, I had to stay close to home to see my daughter on weekends. Therefore I couldn't shop around much for a cheaper institution.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

The most offensive thing on this thread is the discussion of state boards requiring a masters degree in order to get licensed. That's nothing more than an intentional barrier to entry, the likes of which Milton Friedman documented and predicted in his doctoral dissertation. It's obscene to require that and further burden people trying to start out when it's not needed.

And yes, I have a master's degree and yes, I'm licensed.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

(OP)
Logically, to me, it doesn't make sense. Just like only being able to take the EIT from accredited university programs makes no sense.

If the test is adequate, it should determine if you are capable. Why does it matter where your degree is from? The way it should be, IMO, is a degree from an accredited university waves the EIT examination if your GPA is above a certain criteria. If you aren't from an accredited university program, you can take the test to be an EIT.

For the PE, if the test adequately tests your knowledge, why does a certain degree matter more than another? It's as if they don't trust their examination process.


The requirement for a graduate degree will make PE's scarcer in the future and possibly increase salaries though.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

ASCE is supporting this required Master's degree for licensure with their "raise the bar" initiative. Although traditionally a big supporter of ASCE, this one thing I am very opposed to them on. I've had master's and even graduate students that I wouldn't let me design a way out of a paper bag. While education is still valuable, the push for universities to increase enrollment and for faculty to engage in research means that the emphasis for schools is to increase profits...not better educate students. Plus, since most of the faculty I have encountered are not proponents of registration, it seems like this initiative is aimed in the wrong direction.

I think we need to increase the standard for licensure but the effort should be made towards specialized licensing (structural, environmental, geotechnical, etc), not towards requiring more education. This is going to do little except make getting licensed much more expensive and therefore cut the number of available engineers.

PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

"...and therefore cut the number of available engineers."

And that is the whole point, that is, that is the goal, not a side effect. Barriers to entry are a good thing for those already admitted, who, incidentally, are the ones sitting on the boards who decide such things. Not so good a deal for the public at large, though, who has to pay more for the fewer remaining engineers who can then charge higher prices. And not so good for the struggling students who have to decide whether make such an otherwise necessary sacrifice in time and tuition or to simply seek a field with less barriers to entry. And not so good, ultimately, to the engineering profession when some of the best and brightest do the math and decide that it's not worth it.



RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

^^^ Should read, "...an otherwise unnecessary sacrifice..."

Is there an edit button that I'm overlooking?

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

This discussion has reminded me of an issue that I faced earlier in my career. At the time, I didn't feel there were any ethical issues. But, after reading this thread, I'm not so sure. I'd be curious to see what other people think on the subject.

I was a registered PE at the time, but only in California. We were doing some work for a small industrial plant. Very multi-disciplinary type of project. Piping, process, electrical, structural. I was the lead structural engineer on the project. The client ended up wanting to build a "test" version or proof version of the plant closer to their headquarters out of state. This required that we re-engineer some of our existing designs to work for the new site. But, it also meant that the site would be out of state and I couldn't stamp any of the drawings.

We raised the issue to the client (and our project management team) early on and I believe it was written into the contract that they would need to get the structural aspects of the design reviewed and stamped by a local engineer. Though there was not any discounting of our normal fee to allow them the budget to do so.

Did they ever actually get those drawings reviewed and stamped? I believe so. Although I had virtually no interaction with that engineer, I had some interaction with the plan-check department at the city.

At the time, I felt comfortable with the situation. The company I was working for had deep pockets and would certainly be more of a target for any lawsuit than I would be. Plus, I trusted the project management team and contract lawyers to have worked out the details. Now, after reviewing this thread, I'm not as comfortable with the situation. Is that a situation where I could have been said to be "performing engineering without a license" in that state?

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Quote (Jerehmy)

Logically, to me, it doesn't make sense. Just like only being able to take the EIT from accredited university programs makes no sense.

If the test is adequate, it should determine if you are capable. Why does it matter where your degree is from? The way it should be, IMO, is a degree from an accredited university waves the EIT examination if your GPA is above a certain criteria. If you aren't from an accredited university program, you can take the test to be an EIT.

For the PE, if the test adequately tests your knowledge, why does a certain degree matter more than another? It's as if they don't trust their examination process.

Sorry, I don't agree with this as all. We're going to give a engineering license to anyone that can pass a multiple-guess test? I think the degree, experience, and testing barriers all make sense.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Requiring a master's degree (or a +30 credit requirement) would be a seismic shift in the industry. It would elevate the role of the engineer as professional closer to doctors and lawyers. Is that really a bad thing? How often do we complain that engineers don't get enough respect. Economically, it would increase the barriers to entry, which would decrease the number of engineers, which would increase engineers' salary, which would in turn increase the number of people going into engineering for the higher salaries. Tens of thousands of law students every year determine that $150k of student debt is worth it based on the salaries they can make after school.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Here's a link to a five minute video where Milton Friedman argues to a group of medical doctors at the Mayo Clinic that there should not be licensure of medical professionals.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2009/09/milton-friedma...

And here's a link to the chapter in his book where he goes into in greater detail.

http://books.cat-v.org/economics/capitalism-and-fr...

The most important point he makes is that it leads to worse service to the public. Whether you agree or disagree please don't overlook that part of his argument.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

It would be sad if there is only one route to registration. I would not have made it, I made my way via the National Certificate system in the UK and there are many like me. In getting my Ordinary National, I was intrigued by to find out why three different methods of analyzing a truss got the same answers, how were they equivalent? Then came half a dozen ways of calculating statically indeterminate structures, I had to figure why they were equivalent. I read books, picked people's brains and figured some things out for myself. I started the Higher national but quit when I realized it would be three years before I learned anything new. Back then, you only had to know your stuff to be employed at it.

Here in PA, I documented 14 years of suitable experience and took the exams. Note, it is not just the exams that count, you need recommendations from PEs who have supervised you.

I took the PE on a Friday, and the EIT next day and passed both.

Do you really want to shut out people like me?

A degree says that your education has reached a certain stage, lack of a degree does not say the opposite. One of my tasks was to teach the recent grad hires how to use the "toolbox" the brought from college. This was often, difficult.

Michael.
"Science adjusts its views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved." ~ Tim Minchin

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

I'm not advocating the requirement that everyone needs a Master's degree. I am playing devil's advocate perhaps because I understand their logic, and I do want to see the stature of "engineer" improve among the gen. pop. But I think that anyone that takes the simultaneous positions that engineers should be held in the same regard as doctors and lawyers, while only requiring half the schooling is being disingenuous.

Archie, we'll have to agree to disagree about the importance of licensure. I think getting rid of the engineering license requirements is absurd and is counter to the first axiom of the engineering code to protect public safety and welfare. I want to know that the engineer that designed the structure that I am in right now has met all of the requirements for licensure.

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

Here are my thoughts regarding the idea that a Master's Degree should be a prerequisite for engineering licensing:

I graduated from the VERY expensive smile California State University, Fresno, in 1980 (~$100/semester for fees plus books and supplies). My undergraduate Civil Engineering program had 96 semester units in the major. This overlapped with the requirement for 4 semesters of Calculus/DifEq (16 units), three semesters of Physics (12 units), two Semesters of chemistry (8 units), and geology (4 unis). By overlap, I mean that some of these courses counted on the general ed side of the ledger and some on the CE side of the ledger…I just don't remember the exact split. In addition were other general ed courses such as English, History, PolySci, etc. Y'all probably had similar program requirements if not more.

My total program was scheduled for 134 units in 8 semesters (an average of 16.75 units/semester, but as you know lab classes makes this feel like more, especially when you work through college like I did). I graduated with 136 units, but had to add a 9th semester for my one-unit senior project report (problems with the hydraulics lab delayed completion until after finals week of my 8th semester). In my entire program, all but maybe 3 units was picked out already or limited to a very short list of alternatives.

At the time (and it may still be true today), California law limited the graduation requirement for a Bachelor's Degree at its institutions to 124 semester units and 40 to 48 units in the major…except for nursing and engineering. I had friends in easier programs who were able to double major or major/minor and still had it easier. Nobody I knew in engineering even attempted this.

My point in reciting these dreary facts is to point out that an engineering Bachelor's Degree is more work than a Bachelor's + Master's Degree in most if not all other fields. Calling our initial degree a "Bachelor's Degrees" is a misnomer, but we're not going to change that. One of my professors back in the day told me that he thought the initial degree for an engineering major should be a Master's and not a Bachelor's with maybe only a few additional units thrown in as a sop to the other departments (I am paraphrasing, but not losing his meaning). The fact is, we have essentially earned a Master's Degree by completing our Bachelor's Degree even if no one else believes it. smile

My dad has a BS in Petroleum Engineering and an MA in Education. He told me that any one semester of his Bachelor's Degree program was at least twice as hard as his entire Master's Degree program.

==========
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

RE: Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations

To each his/her own. I got my BS degree in 1976. I started my career "on the board" detailing steel. I sat next to an old detailer (who was probably the age that I am today) who had been detailing steel for over 30 years. He did not have a degree. The things that he taught me were invaluable - and they were things that I would not have learned in school. That's not to say that I would not have learned those things two years later had I stayed in school for another two years for my MS. Actually, now that I think about it, I took four Master's level engineering courses during my undergraduate studies. The purpose of the pursuit of knowledge is not to get a degree - it's to learn things that will make us better engineers. That drive has to come from within. Mandatory requirements for engineers to get an MS is like forcing a kid to do his/her chores. They may not have their heart in it - so how much are they really learning? There has been a dilution in the undergraduate curriculum over the past several decades. Young engineers coming into our office today know much less about structural engineering than I knew when I graduated. The worse example I can think of is a young engineer who did not know what an A325 bolt was when we hired him. I had a graduate level course in connection design during my undergraduate years. Let's fix that problem. Make the undergraduate curriculum more focused on teaching engineering students the practical aspects of structural engineering so that when they start their first job they have a good foundation to build upon. And while we're at it, every engineering student should learn to weld! I design welds every day - and I have never welded! Also, I doubt that requirements making an MS degree mandatory will raise salaries. If anything, making an MS degree mandatory may dilute the MS curriculum - just as the BS curriculum has been diluted. Then in 20 years the debate will be whether to make a PhD the baseline for getting a PE license. I would prefer to see a series of five or six rigorous tests that engineers would have to pass to get an SE license. (Tests in structural analysis, steel design, concrete design, seismic design, etc.) Architects have to take seven exams to get their RA. Engineers typically only have to take two.

Hey Jerehmy - I graduated from Lehigh as well!

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