1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
(OP)
Photos attached show what’s left of an Internal Cooling Fan on a 1500 HP gas compressor motor recently placed in service.
The relatively new Baldor/Reliance brand motor may have less than 500 hours on it.
Oil appeared very clean, and the sleeve bearings were not wiped out.
Internal fins connecting the “keyed” fan shaft hub to the outer fan blade(s) were completely ripped away
causing the fan to bang around inside the winding portion of the motor, hence a winding failure as well.
At this writing… I reluctantly admit I left the shop without looking at whether the motor is a two, or four
pole apparatus. (I’m thinking it’s a 4 pole unit but it may be a 2)
What kind of mechanical stress would cause such a failure? The light weight aluminum fan would seem to be
merely going for a ride affixed to the shaft. Yet it failed in the manor shown in the photos.
The end user appears to be pointing at the manufacturer as to the cause of fan failure.
Any additional ideas, opinions, questions would be helpful.
John
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=e...
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=2...
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=1...
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=8...
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=b...
The relatively new Baldor/Reliance brand motor may have less than 500 hours on it.
Oil appeared very clean, and the sleeve bearings were not wiped out.
Internal fins connecting the “keyed” fan shaft hub to the outer fan blade(s) were completely ripped away
causing the fan to bang around inside the winding portion of the motor, hence a winding failure as well.
At this writing… I reluctantly admit I left the shop without looking at whether the motor is a two, or four
pole apparatus. (I’m thinking it’s a 4 pole unit but it may be a 2)
What kind of mechanical stress would cause such a failure? The light weight aluminum fan would seem to be
merely going for a ride affixed to the shaft. Yet it failed in the manor shown in the photos.
The end user appears to be pointing at the manufacturer as to the cause of fan failure.
Any additional ideas, opinions, questions would be helpful.
John
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=e...
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=2...
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=1...
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=8...
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=b...





RE: 1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
"Will work for (the memory of) salami"
RE: 1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
There is a "non-metallic" shroud guiding airflow at each end of the motor. The fan-hub location on the shaft in relation
to the shroud sits back further into the motor winding area /space... yet, I'll look at that tomorrow again for clarification.
Exploring the "excess acceleration"... I'm not sure at what point during the motor's operation that would occur.
If that is an issue to consider... one would ask does it occur at "start up" of the motor? And would that be a motor control issue if so?
And thanks for the your reply jraef.
Always enjoying the forum,
John
RE: 1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
I’m no welder, but the large, irregular goops of metal doesn’t suggest good workmanship to me. Also, I wonder if the outer ring was aluminum and keystock is steel, and they're trying to weld diferent metals. That usually doesn't work too well.
The welding itself if done poorly can create stresses in the thin piece, making it want to warp and pull away (putting a stress on those welds).
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(2B)+(2B)' ?
RE: 1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
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(2B)+(2B)' ?
RE: 1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
Heating when the hub was initially installed onto the shaft? (especially if the outer thin ring was heated).
Driven by vfd, in theory there could be torque pulsations and minute speed pulsations that excite mounted resonance of that piece. But that seems like a real longshot to me because the mass of that fan is so small compared to everything else.
Both are longshots. Otherwise shouldn't be any problems unless really bad construction or else jeff's theory that the fan blades hit first. Get a welder in your shop to give you his opinion on those welds.
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(2B)+(2B)' ?
RE: 1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
John
RE: 1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
RE: 1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
This is a long shot if the motor is line driven but more of a possibility if the motor is on a VFD.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: 1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
The fracture faces to me at least look very brittle i.e. a fast fracture occurred with no warning, further it appears that the fan blades failed just outside the edge of the fillet weld in the several places, I would therefore be thinking that it was some weld defect or possibly fatigue at play.
In the pictures posted by the OP the second to the last pic shows some marks of the fracture, if we could have another picture with the fracture face zoomed in close and viewed from above we might get a better idea.
desertfox
RE: 1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
The hub portion of the fan has been removed from the Opposite Drive End of the rotor (where failure occurred) to allow further inspection and better photos to be taken.
A photo of the "in tact" Drive End Fan will also be posted to show its construction style and comparison to the failed piece, mounting position related to the rotor, etc.
It turns out, the motor is likely a 6 pole unit... ( not a 2 or 4, as alluded in original post) which I'll also confirm in Monday's Post.
Always enjoying this Forum,
John
RE: 1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
from its keyed/set screw fit and resting on the rotor shaft along with the outer fan portion.
Drive End photos of the intact rotor illustrate the fan(s) welded aluminum construction and its mounting.
I don’t have any further info related to the motor’s power supply other than its name plate rating of 4000 volts
and rated speed of 1190 RPM.
Thanks in Advance for any, and all of your ideas related to this failure.
John
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=b...
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=6...
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=7...
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=a...
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http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=7...
RE: 1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
I'm not sure what to make of it now. Before we were thinking maybe the blades hit or bad weld or (longshot) torsional resonance. Now I'm inclined to add possibly a bad design to the longshot list.
One thought that comes to mind to increase strength would be to put some gusset/stiffners in the perpendicular direction to those spokes, BUT that would have an adverse effect on axial airflow into the rotor for rotor/stator cooling which would have to be looked at very carefully. Certainly would want to get OEM involved (I assume you're already trying to get their input).
Another possible inspection would be NDE inspection of the welds on the non-broken fan side. If they're starting to crack then at least you can probably rule out the fan blades hitting something.
Maybe deserfox and others more mechanically inclined than me will have better ideas about this failure.
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(2B)+(2B)' ?
RE: 1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
The same caution applies to weldments, for nearly the same reasons.
Those welds are UGLY. I figure it's a low production part, but can't anybody just take a snag grinder to the rust before striking an arc?
The OEM should be on the hook for fluorescently crappy workmanship.
Yeah, good luck with that.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: 1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
Thanks for the additional pic's!
My thoughts are this, looking at the last two pictures the vane to the left of vertical and adjacent to the hole in the hub appears to have some kind of undercut on its front edge face i.e. the narrow thickness of the vane, if this is so then it's very possible that cracks can grow along the weld and manifest itself in the type of failure you have at present.
It is hard to be absolutely certain because when I zoom up the picture it's goes blurred.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=effects+of+an+un...
The site above shows a diagram of a weld undercut which will give you some idea of what I mean.
http://www.tech.plym.ac.uk/sme/strc201/wdefects.ht...
The second link gives a list and explains different weld defects and if you scroll down it mentions undercutting in relation to reducing joint strength.
I think you need to get some proper material analysis done on the failed parts and after that contact the vendor if you haven't already done so.
RE: 1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
RE: 1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
Can you tell us something about the load? Direct drive or belted? piston, vane or fan?
I notice that despite the crappy welds, the breaks look like they are beside the welds. I don't see weld failures. We have mentioned resonance and torsional vibration a couple of times. I suspect that load induced effects caused early failure of a bad design.
I have seen pump casings with a hole the size of the palm of my hand blown out of a good casting by inadvertent operation at a "forbidden frequency". If you are inadvertently operating at or near a forbidden frequency even perfect welds may fail.
Forbidden frequency. A speed or frequency where periodic pulses from one part of a mechanical system excite a resonant vibration or oscillation in another part of the same system.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: 1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
Is your 6P-1500HP gas compressor motor driving a reciprocating (IE: Areil) type compressor?
Does the compressor have a flywheel for the torsional pulsations or is motor just coupled to the compressor?
How is motor started - DOL or VFD? What standard was used for motor design (Nema only or Nema/API-541?
Is there is vibration equipment mounted on the motor (accelerometers or proxy probes?)
I agree the fan design /welding is weak, but there missing pieces of the puzzle for a NDE internal cooling fan to fail.
I could see the DE version fail as it is much closer to the load and potential vibration / resonance issues.
TIA
Mac
RE: 1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
In an effort to not leave those who followed this thread “hanging”, the failed motor has since been repaired.
The stator was rewound. New cast aluminum fans were installed in place of the welded versions,
new sleeve bearings acquired from the manufacturer… were replaced, and so on.
The repaired motor comprises 1 of 2 new units driving new “two cylinder” reciprocating compressors. (When this thread was originally posted, the failed motor had approximately 400 hours of service on it, and not the 500 mentioned earlier. [The failed motor was built new in 2012].)
Motor back in service, all is well.
Well… Not so fast.
Both motors on these compressors exhibit “random” axial hunting.
The repaired one [more so] than the other unit. (Hence, the Repair Center’s continued involvement.)
In the early diagnosing stage of the motor failure, most everyone was looking at the fan, its poor design,
construction, etc. (The fan design and its construction were established in 1983, with revisions in the ‘90s
according to the manufacturer’s mechanical drawing of the fan.)
To date, no clear answer has been declared as to what caused the internal fan to fail other than pointing
at the fan itself.
One of the End User’s comments related to the original motor failure that raised my attention was that the motor took a long time to settle down with its axial hunting when the apparatus was originally being installed the first time. Well, here we are again… the motor is exhibiting similar characteristics.
If we rule out all the text-book reasons why a motor may hunt for its electrical center, and grant that the device(s) has/have been installed level, aligned, and being fed with etiquette power… (4123 Volts “measured”) What’s left?
As a Motor Person wanting to solve a problem, I don’t want to point at anything other than the solution.
What’s being overlooked here? Any ideas?
John
RE: 1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
Should it?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: 1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
http://www.greenheck.com/media/pdf/catalogs/VaneAx...
RE: 1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
For Mike's benefit - horizontal sleeve bearing motors have endplay as specified by NEMA. Typically 1/2" for motors in this size range. Any thrust bumpers are not designed to continuously carry thrust.
The coupling may be flexible or limited endfloat and should limit travel quite a bit less - typically 1/8".
When coupling, mechanical centering should be considered to avoid potential contact during operation. Traditional wisdom is also that a motor coupled off of magnetic center will cause hunting. I have never witnessed that personally. Ideally mechanical and magnetic center coincide and we can meet both.
When coupled, the position is established by the driven equipment thrust bearing which has very little endplay.
We have one family of sleeve bearing motors driving centrifugal pumps through shim pack coupling that experiences motor axial shaft hunting (approx 0.1" movement at approx 1hz rate) during certain flow conditions of the pump. Small movement within the pump bearing clearance can translate to larger movements of the motor shaft due to low axial stiffness of the coupling. This is particularly true if the driven equipment generates axial movement at a low or broadband frequency which can exite a natural frequency of the SDOF system comprised of axial coupling spring plus motor rotor mass.
Just trying to explore your thought process - how could axial hunting be related to reported problem:
1 - excess movement could allow contact of rotating to stationary parts.
2 - unusual contact between rotating/stationary parts or damaged fan could induce hunting
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(2B)+(2B)' ?
RE: 1500 HP Internal Cooling Fan Failure
If the hunting is caused by the fan, then the fan would be alternately pushing and pulling on the shaft. If there are fan stall issues already due to bad design, the fan may not be designed to withstand the stresses caused by hunting.
If the fan is stalling, it may be damaging itself by causing the hunting.
dArsonval: If I understood the link posted by DesertFox, it may be possible to check for fan stalling by restricting the air discharge openings on the motor. A restriction in the air discharge path will reduce the flow volume and may move the fan operating point down from the stall part of the curve. While the motor is hunting, plug the air discharge ports and see if the hunting ceases. Don't get any rags caught in the shaft while doing this.
Bill
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"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter